2/25/99 Chat Log with Gale Banks

208.11.5.41:(20:47:27) JLester : Hey, looks like several people in here already. Let me know when you want to start.

207.217.174.128:(20:49:44) Banks : Ready to go now ... have to leave at 10 your time.

208.11.5.41:(20:50:05) JLester : That's fine, let's get started!

171.68.24.170:(20:46:40) attila : I have 70k on a 7.3 van, and want to turbo the beast. At what point does this become not a good idea. In terms of mileage. No doubt, condition is paramount; my van is alive and well. Thanks, Attila

207.217.174.128:(20:50:57) Banks : Attila, is that an IDI or Power Stroke?

208.11.5.41:(20:51:38) JLester : I believe he means a 7.3 IDI.

207.217.174.128:(20:51:53) Banks : Sorry, of course IDI. This is a 300-400,000 mile engine designed for medium trucks. Do it!

208.11.5.41:(20:52:14) JLester : Here's a very common one ...

209.132.125.168:(20:43:41) TimD : Can a Banks system be installed and not void ford warranty?

207.217.174.128:(20:54:04) Banks : TimD, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Protection Act prevents any manufacturer from voiding your warranty merely because an aftermarket product was installed. Ours do not cause damage -- you'll have to go to our competitors for that. :) For more on this issue, go to www.bankspower.com.

208.11.5.41:(20:54:39) JLester : The question everyone's dying to ask ...

169.157.175.20:(20:46:10) Travis : What is the hard data to the kits for the 99 (build date of 9/98. Boost psi Egt and H.P. and torque. Thanks for the info.

208.11.5.41:(20:55:14) JLester : I don't know if that info is available yet, but I get asked a lot! People are really anxious.

207.217.174.128:(20:56:36) Banks : Travis, we're working on four levels. Git-Kit, Stinger, Stinger-Plus, and PowerPack. To date, we've seen substantial gains -- well over 100 lb-ft and 75 additional hp. Testing continues. More to come soon.

208.11.5.41:(20:57:10) JLester : Any idea on what parts you'll be adding/replacing on the '99s?

207.217.174.128:(21:00:48) Banks : Git-Kit will consist of a new muffler and tailpipe, which provide a substantial airflow increase and an OttoMind engine calibration module. Stinger adds 3 1/2-inch Monster turbine outlet pipe, a different air cleaner element, some revised air inlet changes, DynaFact boost and pyro instruments and appropriate OttoMind. Stinger-Plus should be a higher-flow turbine housing and revised air ducting to and from the intercooler. The big daddy, PowerPack, will add our new Techni-Cooler intercooler, which offers tremendous promise for gains.

208.11.5.41:(21:01:16) JLester : Tech question:

129.2.178.13:(20:44:23) JasonV : Gale, my brother bought one of your Stinger Plus packs and it is great. But there seems to be a hissing sound coming either from the turbo, or the vacuum pump. We don't know what it is and thought that maybe you would. Also, the vacuum pump was originally replaced last year.

207.217.174.128:(21:02:18) Banks : JasonV, a hissing sound could be a boost pressure leak, but it's more probable, connections to any part of the vacuum pump system.

208.20.34.95:(20:43:32) George : How much louder will the exhaust be after installing the new muffler and tail pipe from the git-kit

207.217.174.128:(21:03:39) Banks : George, this is a sweet-sounding setup. The muffler is a stainless, straight-through, with ceramic packing. No backpressure, and sounds great!.

208.11.5.41:(21:04:27) JLester : I assume he is talking about EGT. Sounds like the situation in the trailer article you sent:

204.117.184.239:(20:46:54) don : With my tires and gears my truck turns 1500 rpm at 55mph. In od (E4OD) the temp is running about 700. Shifting out of od immediately drops the temp to around 550. Am I just burning more fuel at 700 degrees?

207.217.174.128:(21:06:48) Banks : Hi Don -- Obviously, the mixture is richer at 700 degrees. I assume you're tlking about running the truck light. This is a balancing act. The rpm is higher in 3rd, but the fuel rate is lower. Without a fuel flow-meter installed, I couldn't predict the mileage difference, but my gut feeling is, it's better in OD.

207.217.174.128:(21:07:50) Banks : A rule of thumb to optimize mileage -- run your engine at or near the torque peak rpm for optimum efficiency, under work conditions.

208.11.5.41:(21:07:49) JLester : A new question that's turned up since the introduction of the Git-Kit.

169.157.175.20:(20:49:31) Travis : Are the git kit and the transcommand compatible or are they one or the other.

207.217.174.128:(21:11:09) Banks : Travis, while shift pressure changes in the chip do not provide the shift characteristics that we're able to achieve with the TransCommand, we elected to re-schedule shift pressure in the chip at this power and price level. If you have a TransCommand, install the bypass jumper when fitting a Git-Kit. This will prevent undesirably firm shifts. This is not dangerous, just too firm.

208.11.5.41:(21:11:42) JLester : Another tranny question ...

209.115.69.226:(20:52:53) Vern : I have your TransCommand installed on my 99 450 PSD 4R100. What else can I do to further 'Bullet Proof' the tranny?

207.217.174.128:(21:13:19) Banks : Vern, have a look at my DynaFact trans-temp gauge. It's color-coded to indicate safe operating temperature range. I can tell you the guys plowing snow with 99 PSD trucks don't take 'em over 280 degrees in the transmission pan.

208.11.5.41:(21:13:51) JLester : While we're on trannies ...

12.13.102.130:(20:53:49) Lyndal : Concerning the Trans Command, My 4R100 seems to have a firm 1-2 shift and then seems to slide into drive and OD. Also, when it downshifts from OD to drive, there is a hesitation before drive seems to catch and then the torque converter locks. Will the Transcommand help this problem?

207.217.174.128:(21:15:12) Banks : Sounds like you have a warranty issue. The TransCommand will definitely add to the life of the transmission. That's why we make it. But I think you have a fundamental Ford-related problem.

208.11.5.41:(21:15:43) JLester : Might be a candidate for the reprogram Ford has been performing on the 4R100.

207.217.174.128:(21:16:03) Banks : I agree

208.11.5.41:(21:16:02) JLester : Here's a nice technical question.

198.59.176.168:(20:54:41) KFerguson : The Garrett GT-40 performance curve roughly matches PSD specified performance. Can I use those curves for back-of-envelope calcualtions on what is doable?

207.217.174.128:(21:17:43) Banks : KFerguson, while the turbocharger on a PSD turns the "wrong way", it roughly is a GT-40. Please realize there are many compressor and turbine trims. The ultimate problem is the 99 PSD has a smaller turbine than the previous PSD engines. This will be a choke point.

208.11.5.41:(21:18:16) JLester : A question from our friends up North.

142.165.92.22:(20:55:19) James F : Do you have any idea of the warranty considerations involved for Canadian customers??

207.217.174.128:(21:19:13) Banks : James F, I do not know if Canada has federal legislation similar to the Magnuson-Moss Act, but I wouldn't be surprised.

208.11.5.41:(21:19:52) JLester : A couple of people have asked about the exhaust on the 99's. Is the downpipe still the most restrictive, or other parts?

207.217.174.128:(21:20:42) Banks : We found the muffler to be the most restrictive. The tailpipe also has some kinks in it. That's why we save the downpipe for our Stinger level.

208.11.5.41:(21:21:39) JLester : Also, if you have tested both .. how much difference in power between the auto and manual.

207.217.174.128:(21:22:33) Banks : Minor differences with the torque converter locked.

206.170.210.105:(20:57:40) TE BEAU : What kind of test Mule did you finally get for the shop testing? F250/F350 Reg/Super/Crew, manual or auto trans...

207.217.174.128:(21:21:47) Banks : TE BEAU, we have an F-450 stakebed and an F-350 crewcab dually, both auto trans.

208.11.5.41:(21:24:57) JLester : Lots of people are sending questions about specifics for the 99's. I don't think complete info is available yet.

207.217.174.128:(21:27:03) Banks : I can tell you this: the 99 PSD starts with about 40 more road horsepower. It's already intercooled. The gains will therefore not be as huge, but they'll be damn good. Ultimately, we pass emissions -- a constraint seemingly unrecognized elsewhere in the industry. Will have final power numbers as soon as we pass emissions. It's real close, guys.

209.51.212.172:(20:58:40) eric : Why do you choose not to improve the fuel nozzles like hypermax? What would happen if you did?

207.217.174.128:(21:23:51) Banks : Eric, let's start by saying that this is not an area that limits our power output. The turbocharger ultimately governs the engine. Knowing this, why the hell would I put you through a nozzle change?

208.11.5.41:(21:25:11) JLester : Rumor??? --

208.157.21.80:(21:02:32) Brandt : I understand a new design manifold is in the works for the output of the turbo on the 94-97 psd engines, is this true? And if so , what will be the advantages of this new design and when will it become available?

207.217.174.128:(21:28:47) Banks : Brandt, I don't know how you know that. But it's true! Air distribution to each cylinder head is significantly different with the stock manifolding. We've been able to balance it perfectly in non-intercooled apps.

208.11.5.41:(21:28:22) JLester : Gale, as you may know, Ford had some problems with the original air intake and redesigned it for newer models. It still doesn't look optimal to me. Any chance for improvement?

142.165.92.22:(21:03:57) James F : Gale, have you encountered any problems with the cooling systems on these modified engines?

207.217.174.128:(21:30:20) Banks : James F, none whatsoever. Bear in mind, that we're removing backpressure inducing elements and, in some cases, improving charge-air cooling. These all reduce the thermal load on the engine.

207.217.174.128:(21:29:05) Banks : Same answer to Jason there.

208.11.5.41:(21:31:02) JLester : Gale, I discussed this with one of your engineers a while back, but never heard for sure what caused the problem in the first place.

207.174.87.139:(21:03:58) Larry S. : I have a 95 that was programmed to 97 specs. The loss in power and loaded mileage is appalling. Can I expect a git kit to equal or better the original mileage and performance I had? If it improves over the 95 what can I expect?

207.217.174.128:(21:32:17) Banks : Larry S, boy this is a story I've heard too many times. The Git-Kit will accomplish what you wish, but we need to know your new calibration code. Should be on your invoice, or on your computer.

208.11.5.41:(21:33:02) JLester : Any idea what the reprogram actually did? Especially since the '97s were rated higher.

207.217.174.128:(21:33:57) Banks : JasonL, I can only guess. It could have to do with production emisions auditing performed by EPA.

206.214.206.87:(21:06:13) stilwell : Are the banks kits different for the 99 and 99 1/2?

207.217.174.128:(21:35:07) Banks : Stilwell, the elimination of the cat converter opens the door for better performance at all levels. Testing should confirm this.

209.166.131.178:(21:11:16) scott : Sounds like some great upgrades to the 99 psd, but what is the best way to upgrade in steps ( which option should I purchase 1st, 2nd & etc . thanks

207.217.174.128:(21:38:19) Banks : Scott, if you're just sporting around, Git-Kit or Stinger. If you're real serious, and pulling big loads, think Stinger-Plus or PowerPack. You can always move up from any level, and we re-program the OttoMind in the deal.

198.59.176.168:(21:11:19) KFerguson : Since the peak torque moves to higher rpm with your mods, does that mean rpm for best MPG should be higher??

207.217.174.128:(21:39:41) Banks : KFerguson, since much of what we do reduces pumping losses, the volumetric efficiency peaks at a higher rpm and so does the torque. The answer to your question is yes.

207.140.228.187:(21:13:19) dgard : I have a 94 Ford 7.3 with a factory turbo and 183K miles. Would it make sense for me to invest in the stinger kit for my truck. I pull an 11K pound 5th wheel trailer.

207.217.174.128:(21:41:50) Banks : DGard, our product for this is called PowerPack, and it helps. But many remove the factory set-up and install our Sidewinder turbo system, as did Ford SVO, in 1994, for their tow vehicles, and just yesterday, the National Champion Midget Racer had us do his tow rig.

208.11.5.41:(21:42:36) JLester : Interesting, so Ford's guys removed their own turbo and installed yours? Hilarious!

207.217.174.128:(21:42:57) Banks : By the way, this adds 52 hp over what you've got now.

208.11.5.41:(21:43:58) JLester : I've got 40 questions in the queue still. No way we'll get to them all. If we don't get to yours, e-mail it to me and I'll see if we can get answers later.

207.217.174.128:(21:45:10) Banks : We can stay another half-hour.

208.11.5.41:(21:45:09) JLester : A recent topic on my website's Chat Board:

207.174.87.139:(21:16:56) Larry S. : Recently there has been considerable discussion of insulation on the 3" downpipes. Would wrapping the pipe in header wrap reduce the heat being picked up in the floor and transmission? Would we produce other problems with header wrap on the downpipe?

207.217.174.128:(21:47:02) Banks : Larry S, first of all, the guys supplying header wrap also supply a downpipe that isn't stainless! If you wrap the entire pipe there's enough temperature to kill it, if it isn't stainless. We heat-shield the side facing the floor only,and use stainless as well.

206.29.104.199:(21:16:55) David S : Your Power Paks add a lot of power. Espeically for the Dodge Cummins. Where is the weak link in the drive train? If the oem is playing the horsepower game, I would assume that all components match the rated HP.

207.217.174.128:(21:44:41) Banks : TO David's question: transmissions, drive shafts and axles in pickup trucks are designed for high-duty cycle, severe service, unlike the cheesy stuff in normal automobiles. So, there's great reserve and we test, and test, and test to make sure we don't damage this stuff.

171.68.24.170:(21:20:14) attila : I live in CA, and want to drive down to Banks for the installation on my van. What preinstallation , and after installation checks does Banks perform.

207.217.174.128:(21:49:56) Banks : Attila, we generally check for leaks, and on older vehicles, perform a test drive. After the installation, we test 100% of our installs to confirm performance and fuel calibration. Look me up when you come down. I'm a Hun, too. : )

204.117.184.239:(21:13:34) don : Do you recommend any additives be added to the oil when running a Sidewinder?

207.217.174.128:(21:52:04) Banks : Don, any national brand of oil contains a package that is more than adequate for use with a Sidewinder. I don't believe in snake oil. Just change the oil and filter every 3000 miles.

208.254.22.211:(21:16:22) Drew Reed : I have a new transcommand on my 4R100 but is does not seem to be as firm as when I put one on my 97 E4OD

207.217.174.128:(21:54:34) Banks : Drew Reed, the difference is one of perception. Ford locks the torque converter shortly after each shift. In the E4OD, this is done very quickly. In the 4R100, it is done progressively. While I quicken the 4R100 lock-up rate, its still feels softer than an E4OD, but my shift pressure is still up there.

207.220.161.52:(21:23:30) denny : What do you think of locating the pyrometer at the exhaust manifold vs the outlet pipe? Would this give you a better reading? How much is the temp drop from point to point? thanks for the chat!

207.217.174.128:(21:56:26) Banks : Denny, the pyro can be located before or after the turbine. It's damn tough to put it befoe the turbine on your rig. But as a monitoring instrument, it is still accurate. Temp drop at peak power can approach 300 degrees F.

204.244.142.60:(21:23:47) markGT : Hi Gale,without getting into product bashing,can you tell me the differences between the Hypermax equipment versus yours? Do you put a lot more r+d into your tests? It seems Hypermax came out with modifications right away.Thanx

207.217.174.128:(21:59:49) Banks : MarkGT, I've bought and tested the Hypermax equipment. There was a sticker on their chip. It said (and I paraphrase) "Danger, This could cause catastophic damage to your engine." Secondly, nothing about emissions, especially California. I can tell you, we will kick their tails and the engine will live. I'm never first (well, maybe in a few races) but our stuff goes the distance.

208.11.5.41:(22:00:59) JLester : I guess there are some Dodge people here too ...

206.29.104.199:(21:28:23) David S : Are the HP improvements for the Cummins of +238 as listed in your ad in TL accurate? Why can you get so much more improvement from the Cummins over the Power Stroke?

207.217.174.128:(22:01:42) Banks : David S, do you mean torque?

207.217.174.128:(22:04:08) Banks : Our maximum gain on a B Cummins is 127 hp and 311 lb-ft torque. The turbocharger fitted to the Cummins, in league with our intake manifold, allow us to more with the Cummins than the PSD.

208.11.5.41:(22:03:27) JLester : Gale, I know you said earlier you needed to leave at 10:00. Just let us know when you have to go.

207.217.174.128:(22:04:23) Banks : OK 15 more minutes

209.99.50.83:(21:33:54) glen : I have a stock 96 what can you say that would convince me to have the powerpack installed

207.217.174.128:(22:05:38) Banks : Glen, How about hp, torque, durability. And a great big grin on your face that started at the seat of your pants?

208.11.5.41:(22:05:57) JLester : Driving one really does make you a believer.

128.6.224.81:(21:37:37) Todd : Sorry for entering late...I have a 97 to which I want to add at least a Git Kit, but I'm afraid the motor is "sick" (excessive smoke, poor economy). Ford won't admit a problem but hasn't really given me the time of day. I want to fix it before upgrading. Any suggestions on how to determine if it's operating properly? What would be the effect of adding something like the Git Kit to a "sick" engine?

207.217.174.128:(22:08:06) Banks : Todd, excessive smoke goes with poor fuel economy, and a 97 should still be under warranty, especiailly if it's been this way for a while. Try changing dealers. You''re right, it's sick, and a Git-Kit would be a waste until you get the engine corrected.

208.11.5.41:(22:08:58) JLester : A question from the powermad gearheads out here. What is the maximum HP/torque you've hit on one of these diesels?

209.51.212.172:(21:39:48) eric : Can I get 450-500 horse out of a powerstroke or do I need to keep my 502 cid for truck pulling?

204.244.142.60:(21:41:16) markGT : What parameters do your techs work with regarding engine output eg.fuel economy reliability EPA? Have you ever gone for broke as far as output was concerned and disregarding longevity?

208.11.5.41:(22:09:21) JLester : Those three kind of go together.

207.217.174.128:(22:11:03) Banks : JasonL and Eric, we've been to about 360 hp and approached 780 lb-ft. But this is tuned to a level that would not be reliable. Might make for great quarter-miles though.

207.217.174.128:(22:12:17) Banks : We "push the envelope" in testing, then back away for durabilty's sake. We never sacrifice the life of your engine for the sake of an advertising number.

208.11.5.41:(22:12:37) JLester : Being that you've worked with them both a lot, how do they REALLY compare?

208.10.217.221:(21:39:08) Austin : Currently own a 24 valve dodge and because of DC customer relation issues vs stance FoMoCo takes, am seriously contemplating purchasing 99' PowerStroke, specific question is with your level of knowledge and expertise which I am sure you have gained in attempting to extract the mostest from these motors, what are the contrasting positives and negatives of the Powerstroke vs. Cummins 24 valve. Relative to such issues as usable power, economy, longevity and durability, etc... under the increased power some of your systems provide. Loaded question I know, but the engines definitely seem to have many design similiarities as well as variances.

207.217.174.128:(22:15:40) Banks : Austin Both are real durable. The Ford is much more responsive to throttle changes and will lay rubber out of the hole with proper upgrades. The Cummins is a small-displacement engine and gives away low speed response as a result, but it's built like a brick. We're hearing disillusionment from some 24-valve Dodge owners re: power.

208.11.5.41:(22:14:46) JLester : No more questions please ...

208.11.5.41:(22:16:06) JLester : Gale, have about three more good questions ...

207.217.174.128:(22:16:18) Banks : Sure

209.173.80.4:(21:53:58) Len Dobson : Are the shops that install Banks' products somehow supervised by your company? I live on the East coast and want to be as certain as possible that an installation by a "Banks recommended" shop is as good as coming to California.

207.217.174.128:(22:17:35) Banks : Len, we are in the midst of a complete review of our installer network. Please call and ask for Frank Costa to get a good recommendation.

209.186.57.109:(21:59:00) S.King : Dodge question here....what do you see as the best inprovements to make in the new 24V and how soon do you see Banks Eng. getting this line out??

207.217.174.128:(22:20:06) Banks : S. King, on the 24-valve, our changes will center around the exhaust system and the turbine housing. Fuel rate and pump timing are much more configurable as the 24-valve is computer-controlled. We think this will be an area for improvement once we take care of airflow.

207.217.174.128:(22:20:28) Banks : Ninety to 120 days away for 24-valve product.

207.217.174.128:(22:21:35) Banks : Last question?

208.11.5.41:(22:21:30) JLester : One more Gale. No really related to your products, but your expertise on diesels. What are your feelings on exhaust brakes and is there a preference for turbo mount vs. exhaust mount? (Paraphrased from other questions).

207.225.28.167:(22:00:41) Murdock : What are your views of turbo mounted exhaust brakes versus one mounted farther down the exhaust system? Which one is better for performance and which is better for the engine? If this question has already been asked just ignore this question and I will read the first part of the chat later.

207.217.174.128:(22:24:07) Banks : Turbo-mount exhasut brakes place the butterfly in such a way that turbine efficiency is diminished. But I feel this can be overcome and turbine-mount is the best location. We're testing everything on the market to find the open butterfly power reduction, with the brakes mounted. More to come ... I do not like complex mechanisms hanging under the truck, especially in snow country. It's just a little corrosive down there.

208.11.5.41:(22:25:00) JLester : Gale, I want to say thanks from all of us for letting us pick your brain for a while. Not only do you make great products, but you also care about your customers.

209.16.192.2:(22:15:29) Brad : Thanks for the chat

207.217.174.128:(22:25:56) Banks : I would like to thank you all for a pleasurable evening. I enjoyed it. Will do it again. Good night, all!

206.170.210.105:(22:26:03) TE BEAU : Thanks Gale/Thanks Jason

207.217.174.128:(22:26:06) Banks : Leaves...

169.132.154.37:(22:26:15) JB : Leaves...

206.29.104.199:(22:26:21) David S : A BIG NORTH DAKOTA THANK YOU TO YOU JASON AND ESPECIALLY MR. BANKS!! YOUR EFFORTS ARE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

209.99.50.83:(22:26:34) glen : thanks

169.157.175.20:(22:26:38) Travis : Thanks

134.163.248.80:(22:26:44) toddg : Leaves...

204.244.143.223:(22:26:46) markG : That was awesome

204.177.219.55:(22:26:54) Wayne Bradish : Thanks

129.2.178.13:(22:27:02) JasonV : Thanks

206.52.133.10:(22:27:02) dale : Leaves...

208.11.5.41:(22:27:07) JLester : Thanks to all for joining in. Sorry if we didn't make it to your question. See you next time!

209.150.200.124:(22:27:18) John M : Leaves...

161.184.196.14:(22:27:19) Nate : Thanks

207.174.87.139:(22:27:21) Larry S. : Thanks for your time and info Gale and thanks for all your effort Jason.

209.99.50.83:(22:27:27) glen : Leaves...

207.225.28.167:(22:27:30) Murdock : Thanks from Colorado, Gale & Jason

208.10.217.221:(22:27:32) Austin : Leaves...

199.174.227.149:(22:27:37) BradC : Leaves...

198.59.176.168:(22:27:41) KFerguson : Thanks to jason for moderating without censoring (at least as far as I know) and of gourse to Mr. Banks.

209.16.192.2:(22:27:57) Brad : Thanks Gale and Jason

206.170.210.105:(22:28:18) TE BEAU : Leaves...

209.186.57.109:(22:28:28) S.King : Thanks

209.186.57.109:(22:28:29) S.King : Thanks

207.115.62.88:(22:28:34) Tom : Thanks for all you do

209.156.84.27:(22:28:42) Mark E. : Leaves...

206.214.206.87:(22:28:59) stilwell : thanks, and where do we send our donation for a new server

198.59.176.168:(22:29:11) KFerguson : Leaves...

209.99.50.83:(22:29:21) glen : Leaves...

207.225.28.167:(22:29:58) Murdock : Leaves...

12.13.102.130:(22:30:01) Lyndal : Thanks Mr Banks and Jason, lots of good info.

207.174.87.139:(22:30:05) Larry S. : Leaves...

207.115.62.50:(22:30:17) WGM : Leaves...

209.115.69.226:(22:30:35) Vern : Thanks Jason for all you do to support the web page!

209.115.69.226:(22:32:15) Vern : Leaves...

204.244.143.223:(22:32:25) markG : Leaves...

199.17.212.90:(22:32:33) Jim Swartz : Leaves...

209.214.218.114:(22:34:25) Rick : Leaves...

206.99.182.108:(22:34:46) Shorty : Is it just me, or does the driver seat in the '99 super duty "sit" funny? My truck seems to "give" to the left towards the door and I can't seem to get comfortable. It seem like either the springs or the foam contour allows you to slump over to the left. This may sound trivial, but it's literally a pain in the "seat". Does anyone know of a repair short of getting a new seat?

161.184.196.14:(22:35:05) Nate : Leaves...

206.99.182.108:(22:35:16) Shorty : Leaves...

204.244.143.223:(22:35:42) Anonymous : Leaves...

209.183.87.71:(22:35:44) Dave Whitmer : Leaves...

209.115.69.226:(22:36:17) Vern : Leaves...