Archives >> Engine and Drivetrain (3/01)

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Tom Pike
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Member # 3585
Reged: 10/31/99
Posts: 1120
Loc: Trabuco Canyon CA
10,000 mile T444E oil changes
#184658 - 01/23/00 12:31 AM

From the International site:

<<Oh, by the way, the change interval on the T444E has been recently increased from the 8000 miles that Cummins discussed to 10000 miles. This revision was based on oil-condition analysis in our four years of experience with this engine.

<<International believes the best indicator for oil change interval for buses is engine operating hours. We provide an engine hour meter as standard equipment on the instrument cluster and a service engine reminder lamp that can be set to prompt oil changes based on hours. The Cummins recommendation for the ISB is 500 hours compared to 350 for the T444E. Their hour based interval is significantly longer, proportionate to the mileage intervals, and the same engineering skepticism about the wisdom of this approach applies.>>

This raises questions: why does Ford require 5,000 mile oil changes when International's interval is 10,000 mile? Surely the duty in a bus or medium truck would be harder on the engine. At 10,000 mile intervals, the attractiveness of Delvac 1 or other synthetics is more justified from a cost standpoint. A very attractive plus for the synthetic would be at least 100 degrees extra protection for the turbo bearing at shutdown, reducing the need to idle after driving.

BTW, 350 hours at an average of 50 MPH is 17,500 miles. This average speed is not outside the realm of possibility for some drivers (including idle time etc).

For now, I will continue using Rotella conventional (at 5K intervals), but may look into finding Delvac 1 at a good price and going to 10K intervals. For my driving style nearly all at highway speeds and under light loads, even at 10K interval looks to be ample.

[This message has been edited by Tom Pike (edited 01-22-2000).]

zack
Member
Member # 565
Reged: 04/08/99
Posts: 385
Loc: terrace park, ohio usa
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184659 - 01/22/00 02:48 PM

I drive an international school bus and can tell you a few things that make a differance. The buses get one cold start a day, and are allowed to idle for 10-30 minutes before starting on the route. I idle mine to 1100 rpm for proper cylinder burning. The oil pan on the buses is bigger than what you guys get on a pick-up, and international designed the entire chassis and engine. Since they built and tested it they know everything meets their standards. But for ford, they just sell them engines, and ford gets to make their own computer program and other sytems to run the engine.
I also believe that the engines make different power levels, and I know my allison runs a bit different from your automatics. There are a lot of things that get altered, and I'd say international told ford to be reasonable on oil changes if they want some help with that 100000 mile warranty.
Hope this helps, and I'm sure there are more differences than I mentioned.

Y2KPSD
Member
Member # 2639
Reged: 08/24/99
Posts: 744
Loc: Reno, Nv
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184660 - 01/22/00 02:59 PM

Highway / continous miles are much easier on engines that stop / go use that pickup owners do (myself).
T444E has much more oil for this purpose. I bet the buses still change oil more frequenty than you do. More frequent calendar w/ more miles on the engine.

TravisModerator
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Reged: 04/05/99
Posts: 2263
Loc: Florida
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184661 - 01/22/00 06:49 PM

One other thing is that the T444E is goverened to 2300rpm's.

I

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99 F250 psd cc lariat 4x4
6 speed shorty



Tom Pike
Member
Member # 3585
Reged: 10/31/99
Posts: 1120
Loc: Trabuco Canyon CA
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184662 - 01/22/00 07:24 PM

How much oil does the T444E hold?

A picture of the T444E is on this page: http://www.cornhuskertrux.com/engines.html
It does appear to have a larger pan, and the main part of the sump is at the front, not the rear as our PSD engines. Perhaps different pans are offered for applications.

From International:
<<The two main factors in determining proper oil change interval are fuel consumed and oil capacity. >>

So it would seem the oil change capacity of the T444E is very important to this discussion. I will call my friend with the International T444E trucks and get the capacity info.

[This message has been edited by Tom Pike (edited 01-22-2000).]

Y2KPSD
Member
Member # 2639
Reged: 08/24/99
Posts: 744
Loc: Reno, Nv
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184663 - 01/22/00 11:19 PM

Can't remember, but 20 or 20+ qts
Lower RPM
Better Exhaust (temp control)
Continous operation in commerical use, I think are the main factors

Rick M
Member
Member # 68
Reged: 04/01/99
Posts: 1302
Loc: Natchez, MS
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184664 - 01/22/00 11:41 PM

Don't they also use straight injector instead of the oil driven split shot. The main reason we have to change our oil is to replenish/replace the anti-foaming additives so that the HEUI injectors will work properly. Even if they are using the HEUI injectors with the lower RPM limit, bigger pan, and lower number of cold starts the oil is not beat into submission as quick. Does anyone know how often UPS changes the oil in their trucks with the T444?

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Rick M

jimmy
Member
Member # 93
Reged: 04/01/99
Posts: 1516
Loc: Justin,Texas, Republic of TEXAS (USA)
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184665 - 01/23/00 01:01 AM

T444E is a HEUI fuel sytem engine also. The physical control unit is different and may not be a Ford/Visteon part but it is a oil pressure driven injector setup just the same.

Len Dobson
Member
Member # 432
Reged: 04/05/99
Posts: 153
Loc: Elysburg, PA USA
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184666 - 01/23/00 07:59 AM

99.5 Powerstroke = 15 guart oil pan.
T444E = 18 quart oil pan.

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Len Dobson
99.5 F350 Lariat, Dually, 4x4,
CC, off road, camper, trailer tow pkgs,
4.10 LS, Auto, bright red, Ford bedliner, Ford foglights,
aux idle controller (thanks to my great dealer!)

Rick M
Member
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Reged: 04/01/99
Posts: 1302
Loc: Natchez, MS
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184667 - 01/23/00 09:00 AM

jimmy, Thanks for the HEUI information. I did not remember for sure.

Len Dobson, Isn't it hard to believe that just 3 more quarts makes 5,000 mile difference. There has to be something to the 2300 rpm governor affecting this. Or either Ford just wants to minimize potential problems by having us change the oil more frequently than really necessary and if we don't then they have an out for not covering under warranty if something happens before 100K. Would not put it past them.

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Rick M

Tom Pike
Member
Member # 3585
Reged: 10/31/99
Posts: 1120
Loc: Trabuco Canyon CA
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184668 - 01/23/00 09:33 AM

The T444E is governed at 2500 RPM: http://arsco.com/gencat/pg16international.htm

My reason for bringing this up would be to justify the cost of using a synthetic. The synthetic would give much better cold start flow and presumably less wear, it would carbonize less during turbo bearing hot soak, and could possibly give about 5 HP and a couple percent better MPG.

The 17% less oil capacity (than the T444E)could very well be outweighed by the much lower fuel consumption of our pickups. Most busses and medium trucks are getting less than 10 MPG. Many of us are getting in excess of 15 MPG-far less fuel burned to contaminate the oil and indicative of a much lower load on the engine.

Even if we stick to the factory intervals with conventional oils, we can at least be sure that these intervals are very conservative and that we shouldn't have oil related problems.



spepin
Member
Member # 8991
Reged: 10/23/00
Posts: 1489
Loc: Castaic, Ca.
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184669 - 01/23/00 06:24 PM

One difference that has yet to be brought up regarding possible differences in oil change intervals is the power ratings of the medium duty engines that International is installing in the school busses and similar vehicles. Here are the horsepower and torque ratings of the three available T444E powerplants:


T444E 175 Hp 430 Lb.Ft.

190 485

210 485

This was taken from the following link:

http://www.navistar.com/school_bus/270.html

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Kurt Van Doran
Member
Member # 2830
Reged: 09/07/99
Posts: 298
Loc: Near Dallas, Texas
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184670 - 01/23/00 08:54 PM

Here in Dallas anyway the cost of Delvac synthetic oil vs. chevron delo400 requires me to run the Delvac longer than 10,000 miles in order to begin saving money. Otherwise, at 10,000 mile change intervals the costs(including Fleetguard oil filters at 3-4k intervals)end up being about the same. I'm interested in running in the 15000 or better range with oil analysis.

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June'99 F-250SC PSD,LWB, 6-speed manual, 3.73, 29' Airstream
'74 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ-40

Len Dobson
Member
Member # 432
Reged: 04/05/99
Posts: 153
Loc: Elysburg, PA USA
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184671 - 01/25/00 08:36 PM

Rick M.
When I had my '97, I spoke to a Navistar mechanic who felt there was no reason to change any sooner than the 5k recommendation since his engine went to 8k.
For the life of me, I don't understand why Ford didn't transplant more of the Navistar features such as Navistar oil pan, coolant filter, etc.

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Len Dobson
99.5 F350 Lariat, Dually, 4x4,
CC, off road, camper, trailer tow pkgs,
4.10 LS, Auto, bright red, Ford bedliner, Ford foglights,
aux idle controller (thanks to my great dealer!)

Y2KPSD
Member
Member # 2639
Reged: 08/24/99
Posts: 744
Loc: Reno, Nv
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184672 - 06/09/00 01:00 AM

Any more updates??

zack
Member
Member # 565
Reged: 04/08/99
Posts: 385
Loc: terrace park, ohio usa
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184673 - 06/09/00 03:06 AM

Not really. I would say the International engine in an international chassis with an international oiling system is what it takes for those ratings to get where they are. It would be interesting to see the temperatures the oil hits in a pick-up vs bus. I know my bus had a nice sized cooler for the allison, and I think it had another one stuffed up front as well. And since my bus didn't have ac it was either for the powersteering or the oil. Since I now have summer vacation I can't look at it to tell you which it is. The other thing is if the ford pick-ups have a different size turbo running at a different rpm, it might slightly change the intervals. And even though you have a pick-up, your front end does not provide anywhere near the air flow my bus front end provides for the coolers when moving. Sorry, I am out of ideas which must mean it is time for more beer.

Big Red PSD CC
Member
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Reged: 04/10/99
Posts: 2166
Loc: Los Angeles-Earth
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184674 - 06/09/00 11:37 PM

Or its just Ford's way of getting you into their service department more often......

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Max
'99.5 F-250 SD PSD CC Lariat, Fiberglass Lid, Heated Telescopic T-Tow Mirrors, Torreador Red, Banks Stinger w/ A-pillar gauge mount. Built 2/99

MDarrough
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Reged: 08/09/99
Posts: 995
Loc: -Lago Vista, Texas - In the Beautiful Hill Country west of Austin
Re: 10,000 mile T444E oil changes new
#184675 - 06/10/00 09:09 PM

I think it is just Ford's way to CYA. If they say 5K and you go 10K, then you've voided your warranty. Ya think?

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'99 F-250 SC XLT,LWB,AUTO,WHITE,GRILL GUARD,ARE HARD TONNEAU COVER,
BORN 5/98 - 89,800 miles as of 5-1-00

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