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I want to install some new Optima batteries but it's a little confusing. the red top specs are: 1000 cranking amps, 800 cold amps and the yellow is: 950 cranking amps, 750 cold amps. The yellow top "deep cycle" 43.5 lbs. is $180.00 retail and the red top "general purpose' 38.5 lbs. is $140.00 retail. If you have 2 batteries on the PSD do you use one of each, the red for the starter and the yellow for the aux? Or go with two yellows? -kodiac |
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I just talke to the rep at Interstate about this the other day. If you operate lots of equipment, light, etc, when the truck is off a lot, then you want the yellows. If you run the stuff with the truck on, get the reds. If your loads are too big with the truck on, your problem is not the battery capacity, but your alternator needs upgraded. Bob |
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I just talke to the rep at Interstate about this the other day. If you operate lots of equipment, light, etc, when the truck is off a lot, then you want the yellows. Hmmmmm ?? I find your answer sort of fuzzy Bob. I have been thru this dog and pony show before . First let me say that this. Interstate Batteries are made my Johnson controls. Interstate battries is a marketing company and label. Interstate is also is an authorized distributor to sell Optima batteries. I have had as many dealings with Interstate Batteries as anyone here if not more and they make a very high quality product. That being said let me continue. A few years back we were looking to update the batteries in our racecars and looking for something more specific to withstand the torture they get in these applications. We were playing with the idea of going to “Deep Cycle” batteries and got to thinking of using "Optima" units. I decided to call engineering at Johnson controls and to my surprise the engineering dept was more than glad to spend about a hour with me on the phone and bring me up to speed on “Deep Cycle” technology. I’ll make this short and sweet the bottom line was that the “Deep Cycle “configuration of the plates in the battery and the chemicals used are different than batteries that and made to constant charge with a automotive alternator. “Deep Cycle batteries are made to fully charge them totally drained then fully recharged again with a battery charger hence “Deep Cycle” and this is where this battery technology is made to shine. Yea yea I know “My Buddy “ ( the worlds smartest man :>) ) said yadayada . The configuration of the plates in the battery and the chemicals used are different and when used in conjunction with a automotive charging system confuse the alternator and make it work MUCH harder than normal and in some cases severalty shorten the life of your alternator…. AlternatorS in some case and can be VERY expensive. If you run the stuff with the truck on, get the reds. The Optima red will work fine in most automotive applications and I have had very good success with them in on and off road applications . Very high quality to say the least. If your loads are too big with the truck on, your problem is not the battery capacity, but your alternator needs upgraded. Bob |
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Roadagent, I was hopingto learn more from your post, but you said the very same thing as me. In a different way. 1). If you are running too much load for a system, then you have too small of an alternator or alternators. 2). If you run the equipment with the truck off, you need deep cycle batteries, since you are discharging the batteries without charging at the same time. 3). If you have enough alternator to run the current load, and you run the equipment with the truck running, you can use the reds. 4). The yellows are only used to handle the deep cycling of the batteries, not to handle the loads of a peice of equipment too large for the alternator(s). Is my answer less fuzzy? 
Bob |
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Bob, Sounds like "Fuzzy Math" to me too. Sure your not friends with Al Gore? I heard you voted for him... So I asked the local cop here to pop his hood, he had the yellow top also. I don't think that they run the battery all the way down between starts. I have the Ford AIC box also, so it would keep them charged right anyway, I believe. Either way, I bet they would both work just fine. I will prob go with the yellow, it's heavier and more expensive, right up my alley. -kodiac ps. I did read in the Quigley Van thread that a guy who lives in his van had a dry cell system that would last a week before starting, a bit too extreme for me. |
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Kodiac & All , Bob may be a little fuzzy ..... He spent a good part of last night correcting the "dealers repair" on Tar-Heel Flatbeds rig ! The needed to depart early today for a new job . When I need something new , I check all the prices and call Bob last - he has the part and the price , and if there is a shipping problem he calls me immediately . Yellow tops get my vote . Marvin CountryCruizer |
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Roadagent, I was hopingto learn more from your post, but you said the very same thing as me. In a different way. It's that fuzzy Bob thing ,Robert :>) My intentions were to say as litle as possible and get my point across . I did not want to to turn into a oil or trans fluid war and get way off track if you know what I mean :>)~ 1). If you are running too much load for a system, then you have too small of an alternator or alternators. and maybe too small of battries? and Im not talikg B.C.I. cold cranking amps either that can be very misleading. I'm stoping thier. I can feeelll the heat. :>) 2). If you run the equipment with the truck off, you need deep cycle batteries, since you are discharging the batteries without charging at the same time. YUP! 3). If you have enough alternator to run the current load, and you run the equipment with the truck running, you can use the reds. YUP! 4). The yellows are only used to handle the deep cycling of the batteries, not to handle the loads of a peice of equipment too large for the alternator(s). and should not be in the same charging ciurcuit as the vehicle charging alternator Is my answer less fuzzy? YEP! thanks Robert Sorry for the cornfusion Bob , that was not my intentions. I was not trying to conterdict you I'll save that for later and ambush you :>) Bob |
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Kodiac, First off let me state I'm not battery expert so these are just my thoughts. I just read the FAQ on the optima website(http://www.optimabatteries.com/faq.asp) and #17 seemed clear to me on when to use either the red or a possible one good use for the yellow top which fits your Local law enforcement example. I could see were the yellow might give better overall service in a police vehicle where they do a lot of low speed idling (don't think police vehicles have an AIC) with all the lights on and therefore actually drain the yellow top battery down enough and often enough to make it's use preferable over the red. Since we all know that you shouldn't let a diesel idle like a police car typically does I can't envision a situation in a personal vehicle where the yellow top would be preferable to the red top, especially where we all have the capability of having an AIC which specifically has a charge protect on it which IMHO is not for the yellow top, but for the red top and the second alternator option is again directed at a red top situation not a yellow top situation. I have no idea if they do or don't but, I would be surprised if FORD offered any vehicle with a deep cycle type battery except for one for either police or emergency supervisory type vehicles - maybe someone out there knows I don't. For me if I decide to use OPTIMA type batteries they will be the red top and not the yellow since IMHO they are the right battery to use. Of course I will continue to use the deep cycles in my trailer since they are the right battery for that application. Larry |
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Ok, Before I was dealing with "Fuzzy Math" and that's alright. But now, Larry, I better roll a southern fattie and burn it, so it may help me understand your post better.. I beg to differ, the PSD with an AIC is designed to idle for hours, much more than a police car. With the PSD and the AIC you can set the rpm's higher and let that baby idle. Where as a police car is just a V-8 gasser that can overheat much easier than a PSD with an AIC. I think we need Robyn to write a 4 hour essay on this one... -kodiac |
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In reply to:ROLMAO That one that he wrote about an air filter must have taken him 2 hours and it takes up about 2 gigs of bandwidth. Can't imagine one on batteries. [eek] Roadagent, I knew what you meant, and guys I am no battery expert by any means. That's just the way I understand them. Theoretically, you should be able to disconnect and remove your batteries with all loads on. If you dissconnect the batteries, and the truck stalls, you need more alternator. BUT, that was on gassers. I'm not real sure if that thinking works on a diesel. Bob |
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Kodiac, You stated it seems to me exactly what I was getting at. Let me try again. (on edit: just went back and reread my previous post and I guess my statement that "We all know we shouldn't let a diesel idle like a police car" is what may have required the use of a southern fattie. - was it that statement that confused you?) The point I was trying to make is that a police car at idle maynot and probably does not put out enough amps to run all the lights/radios etc. and since it does not have the ability or if it did it have the ability to idle at a speed to keep the alternator putting out enough amps it would overheat. This is a unique case where the yellow might be a better use than the red. What the OPTMIA FAQ was trying to point out I believe was just that. I did not include it specifically but your right, the diesel is exactly the opposite in that it is designed or should I say capabale of idling at a higher rpm to keep the batteries charged. In fact it comes with the ability to do just that with that magically thing called an AIC. Furthermore, the ambulance packages on the E chassis have a second alternator for rescue vehicles and ambulances and some non ambulance package type vehicles can get a second alternator so that with their AIC to really keep all the electrical goodies operating AND the batteries charged. Remember we diesel have two batteries. Does that help? P.S. Please everybody don't give Robyn any ideas - just kidding Larry Edited by Larry M (02/09/02 03:05 PM) |
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Bob, This might be all wet and I'm sure someone can point us to ground truth and you I believe were correct on disconnecting the batteries, but only on vehicles with out any of the fancy electronics - it might not still work on current gasers and surely isn't recommended on the PSD - one of the first things in many procedures is to disconnect both batteries. Until we hear someone with more expertise than you or me I would caution everyone not to run out and try this - it may or maynot be a very, very expensive mistake. Larry |
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Don't Worry Larry, Im confused at about 85% of the stuff I read here anyway. Especially when texastowncar takes us to school, it look like he will solve the cackle problem, and then some... . -kodiac |
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Theoretically, you should be able to disconnect and remove your batteries with all loads on. Oooouuuchhhh Booooob your living on the edge IMHO. If you dissconnect the batteries, and the truck stalls, you need more alternator. NOOOOoooo! Dont DO THAT! it's a good possibility that you never needed a alternator until you disconnected it while it was running and TRASHED THE DIODES WHEN DOING SO. DONT DO THIS PLEEEEZE it can get REAL expensive repalcing alternators that were GOOD to start with. . A better test if you have no meters at all would be to take a screwdriver and hold it up to the alternator housing to see if you can feel the magnetic field from the CHARGING altenator pulling on the screwdriver. This is a crude method when no meters are handy and your in B.F.E. but WORKS . Dont disconnect the battery cables to test the alternator when running it can burn out the alternator diodes. Yea yea I know “me and my buddies have done this and never had a problem. “ NOT ! The truth is that "MY BUDDY" ( the worlds greatest mechanic) never tested the alternator before and after doing disconnecet the battery cable test , because if he had the results would be plain when doing a amperage max load test and found that before the alternator would put out 90-100% of it's rated capacity, and after the running disconnect the cable test that it would only put out 50-75 % or even less of it's rated amperage rating but yet still putting out a fair amount of voltage. BUT, that was on gassers. I'm not real sure if that thinking works on a diesel. Bob |
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OK Bob and Larry, I was just thumbing through my cabella's catalog and I see a "Blue"! Optima battery for RV/Marine use. A 900 and a 1000 model, same weight specs as the ones i listed before. $150.00 and $170.00. Man, these things are starting to look like M&M's with all the color choices. -kodiac |
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In reply to:remember I said that? PLEASE none go out and do it as I have no idea what it will do. I was trying to explain what an alternator is designed to do. Some people think the batteries are designed to run the vehicle.
I hope no one took my statement as advice. I wouldn't do it on my own vehicle. Bob |
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Kodiac, WRT the blue, all I can say is according to the OPTIMA website the blue is designed for power boats, sail boats and all types of RV's and since neither the F or E series is one of those, I wouldn't use them. Please remember that when they say RV's and you think engine, they are typically like what Roadagent said two separate systems. One for the engine and one for the RV portion. I tried and see if I could match a red top to either an F or E series diesel on the OPTIMA website and came up with not matches. This doen't mean there are none, just the software on their website doesn't come up with one. I just reread some of your posts and I feel comfortable in saying if you choose the OPTIMA do not mix the size/type(red/yellow/blue) in a parallel setup. As Roadagent said, each of these batteries are of varying construction, chemicals, which result in very specifically designed characteritics such as internal resistance, etc. and mixing types and infact condition (i.e. age) is in general a no-no and is also addressed in the OPTIMA website. As I said I'm now battery expert, but over the past 6 years or so I've been running 4 to 5 12v deep cycle batteries in my trailer and have a lot of first hand experience on what has and hasn't worked. I really do not like parallel battery setups cause as time goes on it's hard for me to imagine two batteries staying the same and once they get out of balance it's a never ending downward spiral. That's the reason in my trailer none of my batteries are ever in parallel unless I switch them that way for short periods of time when running higher amp loads that due to discharge a single battery won't hold the voltage. Unfortunately in the FORD diesel setup there just is no way, unless you wanted to spend $$$$$$ to change the always parallel setup. Looks like we got two subthreads here: Kodiac, me and others, and Bob and Roadagent:>) Larry |
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Bob, I know what you're theoretically was getting at and my post was not meant to contradict you, but to emphasize that no one think of doing this unless they really investigate it and get input and advise from a battery/alternator expert which both you and I have stated several times that we are not. Hopefully most people on this site following the old measure twice, recheck three times and cut once i.e. get two good opinions, check each with three other good opinions and if all are consistent you might feel better about cutting - no guarantee but "feel better" Larry |
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Typical runaway topic  GD guys you are beating this tooooooo death. It's not rocket science.
just my two cents... and thats all ya get. Install the "general purpose" batt. in your truck. Use the "Deep cycle" batt. for your trolling motor. |
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Cherymax, Easy guy, it's Kodiac's sandbox not yours, you can participate or not, but try and help the thread's owner. Your general observation IMHO correct, but it's Kodiac that has to be comfortable in making his desision, NOT YOURS. While not rocket science this is a little more technical and complicated than replacing the D cells in your maglight. Go on Kodiac I'm still here and willing to help to make you comfortable in whatever decision you will ultimately make. Larry |
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Im still "on the fence". Im gonna check and see what kind Ford put in this machine. Im running a 1/0 ga. feed to a StreetWires distriubtion block to then split into 2 ga. and 4 ga. to feed other smaller blocks, including a painless wiring block. There is goning to be so much wiring on this truck, im gonna need to "pull a permit". -kodiac |
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If you've got room to hide a Deep Cycle battery (Optima or otherwise) somewhere in your truck, I'd suggest keeping regular automotive-duty batteries under the hood. Add a deep cycle battery in a good corner, and put in a Kussmaul Auto Isolator (http://www.kussmaul.com/Isolator.html). Use the deep cycle battery for your accessories, and you'll do great for both engine-on and engine-off loads. |
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Well, that's interesting. All that palaver and nobody yet (unless I missed it) has touched on the differences between a yellow and a red. An engine starting battery (the reds for example) are designed to produce a large amount of current for a short period of time. A deep cycle battery is optimized for a relatively low max current draw but for a long period of time. Using a starting type battery, whether Optima or anybody else's in applications really needing a deep cycle, will just mean that you will not get as many amp/hrs (time on load) out of the battery as you would a deep cycle. Deeply discharging a starting type battery will shorten its lifespan considerably. On the other hand, trying to start engines with a deep cycle battery that has been optimized for long term/low current draw applications will shorten its life span. Anybody thinking that a deep cycle means you can discharge it all the way each time will be buying a lot of batteries. Even with a deep cycle battery, you shouldn't discharge more than 50% if you want longest lifespan. The most curious part of this discussion is why anyone would use an Optima battery in a PSD in the first place. Optimas (and others using the absorbed electrolyte design) are wonderful for problem applications like rock crawlers that often find themselves upside down. I doubt very many Jeeps and rock crawlers are running PSDs. They are also handy for installations where you need to mount the battery on its side or even upside down. An Optima will not leak. They also outgas very little. They are physically rugged. If cared for, an Optima ought to last longer than a standard flooded cell style battery. However, they have low amp/hr ratings when compared to a standard flooded cell lead acid battery. They have pretty high short term ratings, but their amp/hr ratings (the measure of total power in the battery) are low. You can check the Optima web page and find that they have ~25-30% less capacity (amp/hrs) than the same size standard design battery. You can buy at least two good quality regular old automotive batteries for what an Optima costs and have change left over. I have seen various claims on the lifespan of the Optimas, but 7 yrs. seems to be an average. Even if they went 10, you would still be money ahead to by two flooded cell types. BTW: that stuff about fooling the alternator with a deep cycle battery is Bravo Sierra, IMHO. I have charged deep cycle batteries for years using and engine/alternator arrangement and the alternator hasn't been fooled/harmed yet. The marine folks use LOTs of deep cycle Optimas (and other brands of AGM batteries) and they charge them from the engines when underway. It is true that a deep cycle will last longer with a proper charging routine, but you won't hurt an alternator with a deep cycle Optima. YMMV. |
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Wagonmaster, buying Optima batteries for these trucks is just like every other upgrade. If you can afford it and want the best then buy it!! You can get by without bypass filtration, better air filters, bigger exhausts, chips, TTM's, gauges, lifts ... the list goes on and on but it's all about the feeling you get knowing that you're doing more than just "getting by". I take pride in the fact that my vehicles NEVER break down. My wife (5ft and 100lbs) has NEVER been stranded on a dark night because I decided to buy some cheap POS battery. Of course there are many things that I have no control over but I try to keep the odds in my favor. I've been using deep cycle batteries in my vehicles for years and I've NEVER had a battery related problem. I know MANY people that have been stranded by regular lead acid batteries. I had two batteries leak and drip acid over the fenders, frame etc damaging the paint and corroding wires. This happened on my '99 Ranger and '99 Cobra (both were Motorcraft batteries). The Ranger was a total mess because acid got between some sheet metal that was spot welded. No matter how much baking soda and water I used I couldn't stop the corrosion ... this was a brand new truck!! The out gassing aspect is an important one. Poor contact at the battery terminals due to corrosion can cause a battery to explode, melt a wiring harness or ruin other expensive components. I had a battery explode in a work truck and the cost of the damage was way higher than a gel battery. We had to replace the hood. Kodiak, for what it's worth here's my $0.02. I've had a yellow top in my Jeep for about a year now and it has been and continues to be an outstanding performer (I had a red top in my '99 Ranger). I have a winch on the Jeep and I'm adding a set of driving lights and fog lights so I needed a battery that can stand up to some abuse. When you're winching or off-roading at night the engine rpm are usually on the low side (however, when winching you can have your foot on the gas to keep rpm up). The alternator's output at these times may not be high enough to replace the energy being consumed so a good battery is essential. ibuytoys and his dad have a bunch of trucks and they use Optima yellow tops and have never had any problems. They can't afford to go out to do a tow and then have a battery related failure. There are other benefits such as resistance to vibration failure but to me it's peace of mind!! I'll be buying two yellow top batteries in the near future. I have two pairs of driving lights that I'm adding and eventually I'll buy another winch so it's yellow for me. |
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K9, you are beginning with the assumption that the Optima design is the "best." I was trying to point out that it isn't in some respects. I too take pride in never being stranded. My wife thinks I am obsessed with it. I have been stuck a couple of times in snow/sand but "stranded" only once when I forgot to pack an extra fuel filter and West Yellowstone didn't have one. One of the most common ways to get "stranded" is a drained battery. An Optima will provide power for ~25-30% less time than a conventional battery. So your odds of having the engine "click and buzz" when you try to start are better with an Optima than a conventional battery. If your alt. keels over, which is going to get you closer to civilization? You might want that 25-30% more amp/hrs. As for vibration resistance, are you planning on a moon launch? In 35+ yrs of driving I have never seen a vibration related failure on any vehicle I have ever owned, including 6 off road MCs, 5 touring bikes and 3 ATVs. Who said to buy a POS battery? Buy a good one. Yes, if you have a difficult mounting location or plan on being upside down occasionally, an Optima or other AGM type battery is "best." I am not against an occasional case of "overkill" if one can afford it. In this case, the "overkill" actually provides less practical insurance against being stranded than a good quality conventional battery. I understand that "upgrading" is the name of the game. But not all "upgrades" are "better" for a particular application, no matter how much they cost. As for the outgassing, a little preventative maintainance once a year or so keeps the terminals squeaky clean. YMMV. |
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Well, that's interesting. All that palaver and nobody yet (unless I missed it) has touched on the differences between a yellow and a red. Looks like @ 5 lbs and $ 40.00 bucks to me . You must have missed it :>) An engine starting battery (the reds for example) are designed to produce a large amount of current for a short period of time. A deep cycle battery is optimized for a relatively low max current draw but for a long period of time. Using a starting type battery, whether Optima or anybody else's in applications really needing a deep cycle, will just mean that you will not get as many amp/hrs (time on load) out of the battery as you would a deep cycle. Deeply discharging a starting type battery will shorten its lifespan considerably. On the other hand, trying to start engines with a deep cycle battery that has been optimized for long term/low current draw applications will shorten its life span. Anybody thinking that a deep cycle means you can discharge it all the way each time will be buying a lot of batteries. Even with a deep cycle battery, you shouldn't discharge more than 50% if you want longest lifespan. The most curious part of this discussion is why anyone would use an Optima battery in a PSD in the first place. I’ll keep in mind that that is your opinion, and rest my case. Optimas (and others using the absorbed electrolyte design) are wonderful for problem applications like rock crawlers that often find themselves upside down. I doubt very many Jeeps and rock crawlers are running PSDs. They are also handy for installations where you need to mount the battery on its side or even upside down. I’m not so sure about this statement. Optima batteries are not completly sealed to my knowledge. An Optima will not leak. I’m not so sure on that one Captain??? They also outgas very little. They are physically rugged. If cared for, an Optima ought to last longer than a standard flooded cell style battery. However, they have low amp/hr ratings when compared to a standard flooded cell lead acid battery. They have pretty high short term ratings, but their amp/hr ratings (the measure of total power in the battery) are low. You can check the Optima web page and find that they have ~25-30% less capacity (amp/hrs) than the same size standard design battery. You can buy at least two good quality regular old automotive batteries for what an Optima costs and have change left over. I have seen various claims on the lifespan of the Optimas, but 7 yrs. seems to be an average. Even if they went 10, you would still be money ahead to by two flooded cell types. In your opinion. BTW: that stuff about fooling the alternator with a deep cycle battery is Bravo Sierra, IMHO. I’ll again keep in mind Captain that this is not based on fact just your unscientific opinion. I have charged deep cycle batteries for years using and engine/alternator arrangement and the alternator hasn't been fooled/harmed yet. Again what testing method have you used to come to this OPINION and are you sure you really know what you were looking for ? The marine folks use LOTs of deep cycle Optima’s (and other brands of AGM batteries) and they charge them from the engines when underway. I agree Fact : AGM Battries including Optima’s should not be charged over 14.1VDC at any time. With a automotive alternator we now have a slight problem Cappy. In marine applications when done correctly they are externally regulated or have been converted to external adjustable regulators. The internal resistance its different on AGM type batteries not just Optima and have to be regulated accordingly for long alternator and battery life this is based on fact not some marketing psycho babble . It is true that a deep cycle will last longer with a proper charging routine, but you won't hurt an alternator with a deep cycle Optima. This is based on Optima’s marketing psychobabble and contradicts what any mfg/engineer says about AGM and Gel Cell Batteries. Go ask your marine boys that play with the big dogs how it is done. When done properly , these people play with units that are out in ocean in service for months at time and proper charging is of utmost importance. Not by some hobbyist hauling his buds on a set of water skies around the local lake. Because your boat application starts when you turn the key is a long shot from meaning it is correct. This is not just my opinion this is based on fact by electrical engineers that design marine charging systems. The automotive alternator was not designed as a battery charger but only to replace the power used in starting & then to run the electrical system on an as needed basis. |
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Exide makes a similar battery that [unfortunately?] doesn't look like a six-pack of beer, but rather a small, yet heavy, good ole black auto battery. I think it's called Orbital or Obfuscation or Orgasm or something like that designed to confuse. It also has huge NASCAR logos covering it, which may or may not be orgasmic to you, depending on how you like your racing. 
In any case, I paid about $110 at BJ's Wholesale to put one in my racecar (it turns both left AND right). It was a heavier battery than I wanted, but the nice thing is it will never leak in the event of a crash, and I can mount it in the interior without a huge amount of shielding and spill/outgas protection that would otherwise be necessary with a wet cell. I love the thing, it was clearly designed for consumer use, is a bit cheaper than the Optima, doesn't have the Provonost and hype, has decorative stickers that may appeal to some, is available off-the-shelf to cost club member stores, but Exide not as good as Johnson Controls IMO, and doesn't resemble a six-pack of tallboy cans. My alternator seems to get along with it, and it has plenty of balls - even when starting my 11:1 compression racing motor on a 38 degree morning at Pocono with not enough spark retard. -steve |
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Kodiac, Since your still on the fence, K9Crews post if I understand it all correctly seems to support what OPTIMA generally recommends. Red in the 99 ranger gasser, yellow in the Jeep gasser because of a lot of low rpm off roading with lots of lights (very similiar to your police example). IMHO even his 2002 PSD might be a good candidate if he uses it like his Jeep often enough, but he obviously feel the need or desire to use the yellow tops in his PSD and feels comfortable with that decision especially since he's adding two sets of driving light and a winch. Also ibuytoys use of yellow tops in his tow trucks is a commercial use where even OPTIMA might agree that yellow tops are appropriate, I would have to hear from him, cause I have no idea how tow trucks are setup - but I think we all agree they are not a stock PSD. You just like K9Crew will make whatever decision you feel most comfortable with in the end. As is evident and as I have stated my personal preference for what I use my vehicle for would be the red tops if I decided to use them at all - I really have NOT researched whether even the red tops are a good battery for my PSD and would fit and tend to lean towards Wagonmaster's view (on edit this would be his last post before this one, I do have some issues with this first, but will let others respond since the issues are out of my league) here on whether to use them at all. If I felt that I was going to put a load often on my vehicle that the alternator could not handle without putting a drain on my battery, my solution would be either to add a second alternator or use a setup like ptemplin and roadagent have suggested and install a second battery system using either the blue or yellow tops to run all the extra goodies I've added and not overload the vehicles existing electrical system. Remember when your electrical system cannot keep up with the electrical demand for significant periods a different battery as both Bob and Roadagent have said is not really the correct solution. I would also make sure that as Roadagent has suggested they are charged properly this does make a difference as Roadagent has suggested in his most recent post. This is one reason I disconnected my vehicle provided trailer charging circuit and ran my own dedicated circuit which I can activate with a switch thru an ammeter. It's crude but I only leave my trailer charge thru my vehicle on when my pair of deep cycles take a total of 5AMPS or more, once they get in the two to three amp range, I shut them off especially when cruising at 60mph - I just don't feel that if my trailer deep cycles are at that level of charge they should be hooked up directly to the vehicle charging circuit without some voltage regulator for hours on end. While not directly in your original sandbox your last post added the wire toy in there - 1,2 and 4GA wire - WOW those are HUGE. I hope you have either a fuzeable link or giant fuze where they first tie into the vehicle - couldn't envision attempting to hook those size wires except via a fuzeable link hooked directly to the battery. Those are welding size wires and really get expensive. I'd like to hear more on what you're planning on powering with those - just the number of people in the city would be sufficient. Batteries, gauges, making it look factory installed, lifts, oil brand, oil type dino/syn, filters - especially by-pass, and I'm sure a lot of other topics can generate at times very opinionated views so keep on plugging, I won't leave your sandbox till you either decide to quit playing or throw me out for bad behavior - both are your calls - plus your sand is cleaner and warmer than some other sandboxes I played in on this site. Larry Edited by Larry M (02/10/02 04:56 PM) |
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Wagonmaster, do you know the reserve capacity of the Motorcraft batteries that come in our trucks? Ford lists them as 750 CCA and 78 Amp Hours but no RC specs. There are many things to consider when buying batteries. Don't forget that CCA's are determined from a NEW, FULLY CHARGED battery. 18 months later your 750CCA battery may not be looking quite so good. Having had two brand new Motorcraft batteries leak acid I'm keen to dump them for Optima's but after revisiting Optima's web site and reading some of the comments here I'm leaning towards red top batteries with 800CCA, 55 Ah and 104 RC. |
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Better yet I would like to see some independent testing results on batteries - Anybody got any info on this. Batteries are big buisness $wise and someone out there must be trying to help us people "in the trenches" make decisions on where to best spend our precious "after tax dollars" wisely. I personally have done 5A load test on the Sears Diehard Deep Cycle Marine batteries after they have been "broken in" to the best of by ability and I personally won't be buying anymore Sears Deep Cycle batteries not only for that reason, but their testing procedures on batteries for warranty purposes. WRT manufacturers statements I would much rather "measure twice, check each measurement three times and then decide whether to cut" Using that method I have at times come up short, but it sure reduces the probabilities. Larry |
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OK Roadagent... I hate to get into P***ing matches but since you called it, I don't mind obliging. First, most is not "my opinion" as you so wittily retorted, except in the sense that I am reducing the information and typing it in. --------------------------------------------- I’m not so sure about this statement. Optima batteries are not completly sealed to my knowledge. An Optima will not leak. I’m not so sure on that one Captain??? ----------------------------------------- Yes, I am. That is the whole point of an AGM design. There is no "free" liquid electrolyte in the AGM designs. In addition, this is from the Optima web page at http://www.1st-optima-batteries.com/ Noncorrosive: Nonventing in normal use Mountable in any position No. They don't leak. I have read tests where they poked a screwdriver into the case. Nada. Next. I related that Optimas have 25-30% less capacity than an equivalent flooded cell style. To which you reply: "In your opinion." Actually, that is not my opinion. It is simply a fact. Again from the URL previously listed: the Yellow top Optima is rated at 55 amp/hrs. An average everyday run of the mill deep cycle battery of the flooded cell design is 100+ amp/hrs. I just went to the first handy URL, http://www.usbattery.com/12vltmrn.htm and their group 27 deep cycle is rated at 105 amp/hrs. So I was actually being conservative. Optimas are actually closer to 50% less capacity than a standard battery. As for lifespan, again, not my opinion. From the Optima URL listed previously: "OPTIMA Red Top Starter Batteries: Free Shipping in 48 States! Red Top warranty 72 months. Free replacement for 24 months, then pro-rated for 48 more months. Many users report lifespans of 6 to 10 years." From the Yellow top section: "They recharge faster than conventional batteries, and typically deliver 1.5 - 2x the service life." So, no, that is not my opinion either. As for money ahead: a Yellow Top lists for $171.95. I picked up two deepcycle Trojan T-105s last week for $84.00 each and they have more than 4 times the amp/hr capacity of the Optimas. (220 amp/hrs). The T-105s are not what are needed in a truck, but the price comparison is still valid. Again, not my opinion that one would be money ahead, just simple math. Next: ---------------------------- BTW: that stuff about fooling the alternator with a deep cycle battery is Bravo Sierra, IMHO. I’ll again keep in mind Captain that this is not based on fact just your unscientific opinion. ----------------------------- Actually no. I have a degree that involves electronics and one of my hobbies is RV/automotive charging systems. I built my own engine powered alternator charging system years ago and have used it for years to charge the deep cycle batts in my RV. I track the amps in and out with a Link 10 shunt equipped tracking ammeter and a Fluke digital VOM. I know exactly how many amps are going where and when. My ammeter also records the number of charge/discharge cycles and the charging efficiencies. It also measures the drop off in charging amps and doesn't declare the battery charged until it is charging at less than 2% of the battery's rated amp/hr capacity. My training, any number of books and websites as well as 20+ yrs of charging deep cycle batteries says that an alterntor doesn't give a hoot what kind of battery it is hooked up to. Different designs of batteries need different charging voltages to fully charge, but that is not a problem of "fooling the alternator," but rather, using the wrong battery/voltage regulator combination. The pair of Trojan T-105s that I just replaced is over 6 yrs. old and had a hard life before I bought the trailer. They still have ~175 amp/hr capacity left, but it is getting time for them to croak, so I am doing a premptive change out. You are partly correct in saying that an automotive alternator is not designed to charge batteries. The more correct statement is that the regulators used in/with automotive alternators do not optimally charge the batteries. If you put a nice 3 stage regulator from "Ample Power Co." on your average alternator, it makes a dandy charger. The problem with auto regulators is that they are stupid. They (at best) only sense the temperature at the alternator or the engine compartment. (some don't even do that) A battery needs a different final charging volatage depending on temperature. If it is cold, the battery needs a higher voltage to fully charge. In the summer, the battery needs a lower voltage to prevent thermal runaway. So the manufacturers just pick an average voltage that won't fry the battery in the summertime but will still charge some in the winter. So, the battery never gets fully charged in the winter, no matter how long you run the engine. The regulator just doesn't allow a high enough voltage. The best chargers, whether alternator or otherwise, use a thermistor at the battery post to measure the temps at the battery and modify the output voltage. You can certainly come back with another "In your opinion" to all of this, but that won't change the fact that it is correct. Check out the AmplePower web site for a charging primer. There is also a web page from a British manufacturer of emergency vehicle alternators out there (I forget the name) that has a good primer as well. So, again, no... it is fact, not my opinion. And yes, I do know what I am looking for. As for the starting current/long time current thing... I don't have time at the moment to pull up the references on that one, but there should be any number of web pages that will second "my opinion." Why do you think they make two kinds of batteries anyway? Buy whatever you want. Just make an informed choice, not one based on superstition and the idea that if it costs more, it's gotta be better. YMMV. |
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Oh Boy, I think it might be time for back to back fatties now..... This is getting Deep. Anyone have an old Cheech and Chong Big Bamboo album lying around, with the original plastic wrap still on it?? I was thinking about the whole battery thing and well, you know it's like this... How bout putting a red battery for the starter battery and the yellow one for the aux battery? Since my 1/0 ga. feed is going to the aux battery might not be a bad idea? Or we should get Robyn to write a 24 hour marathon essay on this subject. From the fence to hanging from a tree... -kodiac |
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Case and point as you have stated Wagon : "Different designs of batteries need different charging voltages to fully charge, but that is not a problem of "fooling the alternator," but rather, using the wrong battery/voltage regulator combination. " I guess it's all how it's worded. Kind of splitting hairs here I believe. AGM batteries do not like over 14.1VDC and is not recommended. A PSD alternator will exceed 14.1, as do most automotive alternators that have not been modified such as an external adjustable regulator. http://www.balmar.net/Page12-regulators.htm My intententions were not a passing match. Go easy on me the only degree I have is from the "School of hard knockers" |
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Hello Kodiac, This is (your buddy/the worlds smartest man/best mechanic) here. This is my two cents. First, absolutly do not mix deep cycle and starting batteries on the same circut. They must be isolated. If you are planning on running optimas I suggest the red for your application. You only need deep cycle batterys when you will not be immediately recharging them after a load has been drawn. If your engine is running or soon will be a starting battery with I high enough reserve capacity and CCA rating will serve you best. The benifit of optima style batteries has been stated. Small, vibration resistant, mountable in any position, little gassing, true maintinance free, and no leaks even when damaged. What nobody has mentioned is that they charge and discharge faster than most which makes them ideal for winching on a PSD with dual alternators. They may not have the reserve of other batteries but they give up their energy well and accept a charge very very well. This is just my opinion based on some expieriance with the red tops and from optima literature. Starting batteries are for under hood applications, deep cycles are not. Just because they will work and work well does not mean it is right. Read any article on deep cycle battery application and you will not find one starting an engine on land. |
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I thought lead-acid technology thrived on high charge, not on cycles. Ni-Cads like to be cycled. This keeps the ions from co-mingling and ruining the battery. Deep-cycle batteries have plates spaced further apart, so they resist migration and sulfation better than automotive batteries, but they tend to be less power dense because of this. I still don't beleive any lead-acid battery needs to be cycled to stay in prime. I worked on battery systems when I was a systems engineer for both Caterpillar, and later BMW of North America. I toured a Johnson Controls plant when I worked for Cat. BMW had a horrible problem with Varta batteries dying in the shipping container while coming overseas. BMW switched to Douglas for the North American market. The batteries were larger, with greater plate separation, and resisted high temperature damage better as well. Also, I thought the PSD batteries were in parallel. There really isn't a "starting" battery and an "accessory" battery, or are some of the posters suggesting a rewire? Am I all washed up? 
-steve |
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Kodiac, Yep, many of these threads are like a good soap, one show, many subplots. No problem with hanging from the tree as long as if you're using a rope it's attached to an appropriate part of your body. In answer to you last post and what you are thinking my reply is a big NO - don't do that. One thing that maybe you've missed here is when you say aux battery, its not as I understand it really what many would envision as an aux battery. It's actually a second battery in parallel with the main battery. Thus my statement and several others here that you definitely do not want to mix the types of batteries (i.e. red,blue,yellow) in a parallel configuration such as we have in our PSDs as your thinking is IMHO good advise - Do Not Mix a yellow and red in you vehicle. Also, this is a little off topic, but several threads have touched on the generally I believe practice of when having batteries in parallel they should be of the same size, condition, type, age, etc. etc. See the discussions HERE and HERE. Also HERE is some more discussion on CCA currently underway here in this thread. Finally as you should (no slam intended) have noticed I've stayed away from saying that if and when I need to replace my batteries I would use OPTIMA. I'm not convinced that OPTIMA even makes a battery that they feel is appropriate for use in our PSDs. I't just that since I don't need any batteries right now I have not gone thru my own battery decision process like you are currently doing. All I know from every thing I've read on this website and the web in general is that for my application in my personal use vehicle, I will not used any kind of Deep Cycle battery as a replacement for the two batteries that are currently in my vehicle. That might change in the next couple of years, but for now I plan on sticking to a battery that manufacturers recommend. On their website I couldn't get a OPTIMA battery to show up on the battery application selector for either the E or F series vehicles. Obviously some people have used OPTIMA batteries in their PSDs, but I have no way of judging the real success and/or cost effectiveness of this approach. I really question whether you should every put two expensive batteries in parallel, it doesn't take much of a unbalance to start the never ending downward spiral where as the saying goes "one bad apple spoils the whole darn bunch". I've gone down that road several times with the deep cycle batteries in my trailer and won't do it again. Larry |
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Kodiac: I apologize to you and anyone else here at F-D.com that I may have offended with my posts. That was not my original intent. Sometimes you can just get caught up in the heat of the moment and get waaay off the original subject. I will bow out and I again apologize to anyone offeneded. Happy Hunting |
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My camper charging system went south, so now on trips I occasionally put my optima blue top in my truck for 1/2 hour to an hour of drive time to recharge it . This method seemed to work great but am I hurting something? I never even gave this a second thought untill I read this thread. Any help would be appreciated. BTW the total time Running both deep cycle and regular together in my truck might be three hours a year. Overload |
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My sons rebuild 4x4's for resale, they tried the Optima (red), and they did not last long, went back to wetcells. |
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"Theoretically, you should be able to disconnect and remove your batteries with all loads on. If you dissconnect the batteries, and the truck stalls, you need more alternator. BUT, that was on gassers. I'm not real sure if that thinking works on a diesel." Bob you are showing your lack of Battery and Alt knowledge. I learned this in First Year Auto Mechanics in High School. If you disconnect a battery from an Alt. while the vehicle is runnig you will kill the diodes in the alt in about two seconds. A new alt is about $400, so be careful what you tell people to do to test to see if their alt is rated high enough. Wayne B |
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OK, after reading that information packed post I'm never going to buy Optima batteries again. NOT!!!!!!! |
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I use and recommend Optima Yellow Tops for EVERYTHING! They aren't a true deep cycle battery, the Blue Tops are. They are a combination starting / deep cycle battery and I have had no problems with any of them so far unlike wet cells which give me nightmares sometimes. -ibuytoys |
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In reply to: Larry, if you use Optima's search tool to find the right battery for your vehicle you will find that "no matches found" is a common response for many vehicles. I had a red top in my '99 Ranger and it worked very well as a starting battery but Optima doesn't list a battery for the Ranger. The reason is fit and not CCA or RC as you implied. I had to make SIGNIFICANT modifications to the battery tray and hold down to get the Optima to work. It was by no means a drop in battery. The same applies to the PSD ... you have to make modifications but NOTHING like what I had to do to my Ranger. My Jeep on the other hand was EASY!!
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kodiac: I post this information not for another "flame contest" but rather I feel it would do this network less good to withhold it and not have posted it. This is not a "in your face" to anyone here but rather hopefully help others here make a informed decision on. I asked a question to JOHNSON CONTROLS via e-mail today regarding using Optima red top batteries in my truck? "My question is that after doing some reading on AGM type batteries, various technical reports I that have read all seem to state that the AGM batteries should not exceed 14.1DCV when charging them. If this is true are these batteries to be used in for instance a Ford Diesel pick up truck with dual alternators? that will charge 14.7-14.8VDC. If the internal resistance is different what effects will it have on my alternator/s and these type battries?." Response from Johnson controls : "The Red Tops are fully charged at 12.8V. It is true that you should not exceed 14V when charging. This will overcharge the battery and damage it. The charge your alternators put out is definitely too high for these batteries. Can you set the voltage regulator lower? That should solve the problem. Thank you for your continued support and interest in Optima Batteries, a Johnson Controls company." Just for the record the Ford technical publications state our PSD regulator is within spec will go as high as 15.00VDC. AGM battries start gassing when 14.05-14.1VDC. You be the judge. To say something works, and then say something is engineered to be compatible with and works within the engineered specs correctly are two entire differnt worlds. You be the judge. |
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roadagent, I spent about 5 minutes getting this information from Optima's web site. Model 34/78 (red top starter battery) Recommended Charging Information: Alternator: 13.8 to 15.0 volts; no amperage limit Battery Charger: 13.8 to 15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 8 hours maximum Boost Recharge: Maximum voltage: 15.6 volts (regulated). Maximum current: 60 amps. Maximum recharge time: 2 hours. All limits must be strictly adhered to Float Charge: 13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum current; time indefinite (at lower voltage levels). Here's the same information for the yellow top D34 battery that I have in my Jeep. Recommended Charging Information: Alternator: 13.8 to 15.0 volts Battery Charger: 13.8 to 15.0 volts; 20 amps maximum Float Charge: 13.2 to 13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum Rapid Recharge: Maximum voltage 15.6 volts. No current limit as long as (Constant voltage charger) battery temperature remains below 125ûF. Charge until current drops below 1 amp. Cyclic or Series String Applications: 14.7 volts; temperature <125ûF; no current limits. When current falls below amp, finish with 2 amp constant current for 1 hour. So I'm a little confused as to your point!! |
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No problem for your comments. It just amaze's me to see how far people will go to always try to prove that they are smarter than others. It's almost like a comedy show to come back to read what some people say, like "a Three Stooges Short" show. I almost asked my woman put a "depends" on me when I read a couple of post's. I think the best thing to do is just get the exact same batteries that came with the truck, sit back and enjoy a fat Cuban blunt and have a cocktail. -kodiac |
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Kodiac,
Larry |
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Optima Batteries- Red Top or Yellow Top?
Re: Optima Batteries- Red Top or Yellow Top?
