Archives >> Upgrades and Aftermarket (11/01-7/03)

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beanbooger
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Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo
#968809 - 12/16/02 10:29 PM

Hey folks,

My name is Brian and I am the engineer at Garrett who has developed the new upgrade turbo for the Powerstroke 7.3l. I would like to join this group to offer technical information and answer questions. I am doing this in an unofficial capacity and will try to respond to as many questions as possible. I also hope to learn as much from you guys as possible.

The new GTP38R turbo is a direct drop-in replacement for the OE turbo. It has a larger (88mm vs 80mm) compressor wheel. The turbine housing is a 1.00 A/r in place of the original 0.84 A/r. The turbine wheel is the same size as the stock turbo. Performance is state-of-the-art.

The ball bearing system is unique to Garrett and has had considerable development time and is dead reliable. The rotating group is supported by a bearing cartridge that has bearings at both ends. In fact, this is the EXACT bearing that is used on CART turbos (or was until the 2003 season when they go the low-cost route with journal bearing turbos). We have millions of racing miles on these bearing without failure. They are also used on some commercial diesel applications. Don't be fooled by others who claim to have ball bearing turbos with just a bearing on the compressor side. That is weak and won't last.

Initially, these turbos will be available through ATS. ATS will put on their own compressor housing, with the ported shroud inlet for surge protection. Later, maybe late spring, Garrett will offer a complete turbo with a similar housing. Also, Garrett will offer the same turbo with journal bearings at a lower cost. These turbos will be available through distributors and kit makers.

Thats about it for now. If anyone has questions with this new turbo or with the OE turbo, I will try to help.

Thanks!!

Brian

rwoody
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968820 - 12/16/02 10:34 PM

will/do you sell a cartridge /repair kit ????????

to off set the cost for us with the 94-97 turbos with the 115 exhaust
or for some one to modify?



Animull
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968828 - 12/16/02 10:38 PM

Welcome Brian!! You are more than welcome here, especially with the inside info you can get us!! I'm in the process of looking into a turbo upgrade....and that GTP38R sounds good.

Do you have any numbers as far as performance, on how much better this one boosts than an OE or even better yet an H2E?x How much lag does it have? How much boost can it create? etc....

Thanks
John

Thuglike
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968830 - 12/16/02 10:39 PM

Can these turbos handle a constant 25 or more pounds of boost without the typicial factory failures? Are they more durable? Warrenty? Projected cost? What are thier limits? surge or stall concerns? Just a few questions off the top of my head. Appreciate your time in giving us diesel junkies a heads up. Thanks,......Jason.

cliff-1972
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968831 - 12/16/02 10:40 PM

Welcome to the site,Brian.

beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968842 - 12/16/02 10:47 PM

Yes, we plan to sell ball bearing and journal bearing cartridges, but I'm not sure it will fit earlier model years, I will have to check. Compressors and backplates are different.

At the moment, I do not have a journal bearing repair kit available, but if there was sufficient interest, I would consider it. Whenever the compressor wheel is removed the balance is upset, so a big part of a rebuild (for any turbo, Garrett or otherwise) is an assembly balance. This requires specialized equipment so the job is best done by someone with the proper equipment. Just so you know.

beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968898 - 12/16/02 11:21 PM

I am in the process of generating performance figures for the upgrade turbos. I will post them when they are ready. I don't have the Holset turbo but it would be interesting to make a comparison. Lag, what lag???

As far as questions about reliability, this turbo will be equal or better in durability as compared to the OE turbo. Because the thrust loads are better supported by the ball bearing, it will better handle higher boost levels. As stated these figures will be forthcoming.

Because we can't control what you do with your trucks, warranty is typically just 30 days to rule out infant mortality due to manufacturing defects.

Surge effect will be covered by the ported shroud inlet on the compressor housing. This ported shroud is VERY common on commecial diesel turbos. Surge on this engine is due to faster boost rise with a modified engine. Those of you who have installed the ATS housing know how well it works.

Price will be set by the kit makers or distributors. I heard somewhere else that ATS is selling them for $2000. I don't know what else you get for this price, but that should be typical.

What are typical problems with the OE turbos? Like I said, I'm here to learn, too. You guys have the field experience!!

Thanks,

Brian

c_monster70
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968931 - 12/16/02 11:41 PM

I would say surge is the #1 problem with the OEM's, almost everyone here is running a chip, aftermarket intake, big exhaust, etc. and those that aren't surging, probably will be. I think the next biggest is they just don't hold up to the boost numbers the the high HP guys are putting to them, a regular 30-40+psi truck will evidently kill one pretty quickly.

DSheckells
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968935 - 12/16/02 11:44 PM

Could you explain "surge" and what the benefits of the ported shroud are. Other than eliminating surge.

I understand that it is the "stalling" of the turbine/compressor and air going back through the turbo. Would eliminating the stall improve boost levels between shifts?

Thank you for your contribution to the site

Deon

beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#968968 - 12/17/02 12:19 AM

I'll try to come up[ with an brief article on surge in the near future. Watch this space.

Brian

beddins
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#969085 - 12/17/02 02:08 AM

do you have a part number for a 1.15 A/R housing on the tp 38 used in late model?

scottt
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#969091 - 12/17/02 02:20 AM

Welcome to the site. It's pretty cool that you would give your time to improve your knowledge and the product.

I have to agree that surge is the #1 problem.

PSDHokie
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#969485 - 12/17/02 12:16 PM

How much boost can the new turbo maintain without self destructing?

Thanks for your input

Davin
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#969519 - 12/17/02 12:34 PM

This is off-topic, but you don't have an email in your profile, Brian! I'm not a Ford driver, but I have a VW TDI, which uses the Garrett VNT15 variable geometry turbo. Do you have any knowledge of this turbo? I'm especially interested in the possibility of surge (since you mentioned it...) As you know, rise time is QUICK with the VNTs, and I was wondering how this was taken into effect in the design and if Garrett had found this to be a problem with the VNT series....

thanks.

ljthawk
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#969615 - 12/17/02 01:55 PM

I also have a question a little off topic.

Brian, what are your comments regarding the technology of larger VNT turbos and how does it compare to the ball bearing turbo. the dream of fitting a VNT to our trucks has always intrigued me.

L.J.

P.S. Who let those pesky rabbits in. Oh my bad, you drive a Golf.
(fyi Davin and I share an office)

Edited by ljthawk (12/17/02 01:56 PM)

zocalo
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#970192 - 12/17/02 08:40 PM

Welcome Brian. What took you so long? Well, you're here now! I would very much like to see an article on the causes and condition that surge and stall have at their root. And why certain things help or hinder the process. Any sound files would also help many sort out some of what they are hearing in their engines as they tinker or tow. Your comment on the increase in surge related to the mods and engine speed is really interesting.

Would it be possible in your research and performance listings/comparisons to post the compressor maps of the various stages of the turbo's modifications on this forum?
It is really special to have a person with your unique qualifications in the group. We have a million questions on this turbo and it's interaction that would, and have, otherwise go unanswered. Welcome, and expect to get interrigated thoroughly!

mortbike
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#970289 - 12/17/02 09:20 PM

is this the same turbo that will be offered through piers diesel? ,
i was told about a new turbo that is to be offered with the same specs,,they claim it will spool 25% faster on a stock set -up...
can you confirm...

beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#970578 - 12/18/02 12:40 AM

I will only get one chance a day or so to post answers so I will try to cover what I can.

I am still working on the performance specs and will publish them when they are ready(maybe a month or so out yet). This will include a max recommended boost level. Remember, extra boost is used to drive additional mass flow, so that you can inject more fuel to make more power. Extra boost by itself is of no use and causes extra stress on the turbo and pumping losses.

I do not know about GT15V Volkswagon applications other than general info. The VW work was done in Europe and I have not seen lug lines plotted on a map.

VNT turbos on a PS? Does sound intriguing. Right now we are only selling small VNT turbos, so there is currently nothing available for the 7.3l. Would a new 6.0l VNT turbo work? Maybe, but controlling the vanes requires fairly complex control logic.

We don't currently sell the 1.15 housing. Ford owns the tooling so we cannot sell it in the aftermarket. Sorry.

We will post maps on our website: www.turbobygarrett.com
Not much of interest there for PS fans right now though...You can download a catalog of our newest product line , though.

I'm not familiar with piers diesel, but many of our distributors are aware that it is coming. Again, the turbo will be sold through ATS first.

I think thats about it for now. Thanks for the warm welcome.

Brian

beddins
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#971171 - 12/18/02 02:26 PM

so this new turbocharger is going to cost around 2000, have a larger compressor wheel, compressor housing, ball bearings, 1.00 A/R turbine housing? what is "ported" on this new compressor housing? have you tested backpressure on turbine at given boost? why not have a larger turbine housing? i don't get this price, guess it is because it is a drop in deal? does garrett make a wastegate actuator to fit this late model tp-38 that would open at 24-26 psi?

Diggem
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#971564 - 12/18/02 07:37 PM

Welcome here Brian, Take a deep breath, These guy's will probly work you over pretty hard for a while, Just remember -copy & paste- copy & paste, Oh ya and breath

sixiron
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#971673 - 12/18/02 08:48 PM

When you get breathing room from the truck guys....there are a lot of vanners over at the "E" site hungering for any tech info on turbo enhancements....Make a post over there also please...please...pretty please...

Trapper
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#971750 - 12/18/02 09:32 PM

$2000 i would spend the extra money and get a H2E. But realistically i would have to go with the cartrige for the early 99, would it fit??? Still tryong to get the wife to let me splurge on a new tranny

Casey C
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#972043 - 12/19/02 01:32 AM

Brian
Patiently waiting for compressor maps

Glad to see ya on the site, we will all benefit for your knowledge and experience
Casey



POWERSTROKE RACER
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#973836 - 12/20/02 11:50 AM

ttt

Big Red PSD CC
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#974091 - 12/20/02 03:42 PM

For the last 1.5 weeks I have been searching for a Garrett site about info on this BB turbo.......nothing...not on any of the search engines.

Now here comes this site.......looks good.

Thing is there is no mention of this "bastard" turbo....as one Garrett engineer in Torrance Ca, called it when I called Garrett. They had me being transferred all over creation, and not one person had much to say about the GTP-38.....much less about a BB version (GTP-38R).

Turbonetics has no clue on this turbo.......nor do they have rebuild kits.

Still waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy to new.

The little "coinky-dink".....last week I started a thread on here talking about the ATS setup vs. the H2E. The general concensus was that the BB being "too new"..."unproven", and that "it SHOULD do this" or "it COULD do that"..or "that it MAYBE this"......now this week this thread pops up.

One thing that strikes me is......on the "Turbobygarrett" website........the GTP-38/GTP-38R.......is no where to be found.

Also, noting the site......GT37 is good for (300-550hp and 2.8L-3.8L engines) (being as how the GTP-38 is not mentioned). Now I know......that our PSD don't RPM like a 3.8L Grand National motor.....but it still seems a bit low on the displacement side. Correct me if I am wrong.

Just thinking out loud.......

BTW.......Brian what city-state are you located? Its just that your profile is "naked"

Welcome to the site!

Thuglike
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#974311 - 12/20/02 07:06 PM

BigRed, How's that H2E treating you? Did your rig have enough fuel for that big boy? Anyway.....hope it all works out for you, and you get what you hoped for!!!! Keep us posted. Hell Dennis can make any turbo lag-free!!!!!!!!!

Big Red PSD CC
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#974324 - 12/20/02 07:13 PM

Actually the H2E won't be on the truck for probably 2-3 weeks yet.

Getting the manifolds, up-pipes, y-collector, and exhaust housing HPC coated.

Plus with the rain (who says it never rains in So. California??? ), and work, time is tight.

All I know.....its all gonna be in by Jan 18th.....with the new chip from Dennis.....that should be here next Thursday

I can't wait to hear that "whine"

powerlifter405
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#974751 - 12/20/02 11:52 PM

I spoke to a guy over at turbonetics on tuesday. I can't recall the name, I suck w/ names to begin w/, so shoot me...
I asked him what they had and he did comment that since our set up is a reverse rotation it will be harder to do a drop in. I informed him about the H2E and he basically he was saying that he wasn't impressed w/ switzer(sp) but since the package is the Holset for Hypermax, that it should be alright. He did mention Banks, esp that Banks is very concerned w/ his reputation and is someone(banks) he would use on a diesel. He didn't say much about any other HP diesel co's.

One thing I noticed on the Holset site is how the Holset housing can be clocked to any position. Does anyone know if that is true w/ the Garrett?

FWIW, Lott is putting out good #'s w/o a turbo upgrade.
I wonder how much could be made using #2 only, with injectors and then upgrading just the compressor and turbine wheels?

Big Red PSD CC
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#974867 - 12/21/02 01:35 AM

Powerlifter......there are no optional turbine wheels...only compressor wheels, and turbine exhaust housings...mainly the Banks 1.0, and there is one optional compressor housing......the ATS housing.....that's pretty much it. Now there is this BB center cartridge.....will it hold over 25psi of boost????......I dunno, but I am sure I don't have $2000.00 to tbe the test vehicle

When I ran the ATS intake and Banks 1.0 with stock compressor wheel, it made approx. 20rwhp with 32psi of maximum boost. Problem is that the bearings and shafts will only hold 25psi for any amount of miles........and mine is dead now, that's why I opted for the H2E.

And as for good #'s.....wait til the Jan 18th dyno day..
H2 plus the new INSANE chip from TS Performance...it will bury the 400hp easy.......should slaughter 450hp.....and maybe come close to 500hp Let's not get Dave too pumped up now...

beddins
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#975489 - 12/21/02 06:11 PM

the 37 is the other turbocharger on the T444e. i would not think the flowrate of this new gtp model is alot more than stock, just evens the junk out so it will actually run without surging and coughing now. who here has checked compressor outlet temps to see when these things start to work against themselves? since we do not have a map to look at, this is how i have always figured this stuff out. the bearing deal would be for durability, not more flow. i would think the bearing deal would help the spooling ability, so why are the only going to put a 1.00 housing on?

Swamp Donkey
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#975778 - 12/21/02 09:57 PM

Welcome! I really appreciate it when factory engineers join in, and don't take it personally if someone complains!

Regarding the TP-38 used on the '94-97 Powerstrokes, 99% of our turbo failures result from thrust bearing failure caused by boost pressures in excess of 20-25 psi or so. There does not seem to be an exact cut-off in terms of boost vs failure rate, so there may be some other factors coming into play besides the boost level.
When the thrust bearing fails, first the bearing begins to "bore" through the thrust plate; after .008" or so the impeller contacts the compressor housing, and begins wearing down the vanes and/or taking chips out of them. At the same time, the outboard end of the thrust bearing bores into the diffuser housing. When shaft end play reaches .075" or so, the turbine seal ring cuts through its retaining groove, and oil begins entering the exhaust pipe...
I've tried enlarging the the oil passages that run through the thrust plate to the thrust bearing contact face in order to increase pressure/flow to the bearing, but results were inconclusive. In addition to that, I have added sintered bronze flanged-bearings into the diffuser housing, where the thrust bearing bored into it, to act as a secondary thrust bearing. This is working very well. After going through 3 turbos in less than a year, I now have one year on this one.

Some information I could really use is the compressor maps for the TP-38 as used on the 94-97 models, hopefully showing flow with both 1.15 and 1.00 A/R turbine housings. I've tried contacting Garret by email but got no response.

How does using ball bearings on the shaft help with thrust loads, or are they angular contact bearings pressed onto the shaft and housing?
Do they require hardened journals on the housing or shaft, or do they have inner and/or outer races?
Could these be fitted into the TP-38?
Can you give the bearing dimensions?
Do the bearings turn at 100% of shaft speed?
I asking because none of the bearings by Torrington or NSK carry are rated for anything near turbo shaft speeds, so I was leary of trying one for a thrust bearing in place of the bronze bearing. One that would fit was rated for a maximum of 28,000 rpm.
Whats the alloy in the turbine wheel?

powerlifter405
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#976018 - 12/22/02 01:26 AM

Big red,

How do you run w/ just the turbo and injectors, NO drugs??

I truly am interested in the injectors only way. I don't wan't to have to hastle w/ bottles. If someone could come up w/ http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=11824
a similar idea, I might go for it but honestly for me i'm not interested. I recall Dr.Speed, i believe, with another "prototype" wheel DrSpeeds "wheel"

From the research i've found, we can increase air flow w/o too much boost but you HAVE to go to a larger turbo. W/ the stock set up, you have to increase the boost for the air but the relative boost psi will eat the turbo up..

Big Red PSD CC
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#976097 - 12/22/02 05:58 AM

With as much fuel as I have, the LPG is only worth about 20-30rwhp.

On a stock truck with just a chip, a little stuff.......the LPG was worth 70-80. But now its worth about 30rwhp with the injectors.


beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#979728 - 12/25/02 12:29 AM

OK, I'm going to try and answer all of your questions:

>>what is "ported" on this new compressor housing?

Ported shroud refers to a radial slot cut in the inducer (inlet) along the wheel contour and into a cavity around the inducer. Sorta hard to explain, but if you've seen any comercial diesel truck or an ATS compressor housing you will see what I mean. The purpose of this slot is give air somewhere to go other than back through the wheel when operating near surge. Effectively moves the surge line on the map. Also allows for a bit more maximum flow. Downsides are more noise (I know that considered a good thing here) and a slight reduction in efficiency.

>>have you tested backpressure on turbine at given boost?

I do not have any on-engine performance data to share at this point, but it is coming. This turbo is a bit different from what we normally do in the aftermarket. Typically we develop a turbo that can be used on a wide range of engines and we don't do any on-engine work, that is left to the kit-maker or do-it-yourselfer. Since this turbo is specific to the Powerstroke (not that it couldn't be adapted to other engines) we are doing some on-engine testing, and I will report the results as soon as that is ready. This does not mean that the turbo itself is not fully developed and qualified for performance and durability. Complete qualification testing has been conducted and proven durable.

>>why not have a larger turbine housing?

So far we have worked only with ATS. We have gone by their requests for what needed to be done with this turbo. If you have detailed performance questions, please contact ATS.

>>i don't get this price, guess it is because it is a drop in deal?

The turbo is a drop-in, but prices will be set by individual kit makers and distributors.

>>does garrett make a wastegate actuator to fit this late model tp-38 that would open at 24-26 psi?

The actuator that will be supplied with the upgrade turbo will be adjustable.

>>Take a deep breath, These guy's will probly work you over pretty hard for a while

So I've noticed...

>> When you get breathing room from the truck guys....there are a lot of vanners over at the "E" site hungering for any tech info on turbo enhancements....Make a post over there also please...please...pretty please...

No plans to do a Van turbo at this point, but I will bring it up at our next product planning meeting...

>>But realistically i would have to go with the cartrige for the early 99, would it fit???

Unfortunately, this upgrade will only fit the MY99.5 and up. Is there a market for earlier models? Don't answer here!! I may post another message covering this topic.

>> Patiently waiting for compressor maps

I know, I'm working as fast as I can. Things move painfully slow in a corporate environment...

>>ttt

???

>> For the last 1.5 weeks I have been searching for a Garrett site about info on this BB turbo.......nothing...not on any of the search engines.

You heard about it here first...

>>Now here comes this site.......looks good.

>>Thing is there is no mention of this "bastard" turbo....as one >>Garrett engineer in Torrance Ca, called it when I called Garrett. >>They had me being transferred all over creation, and not one person >>had much to say about the GTP-38.....much less about a BB version >>(GTP-38R).

Sorry for the run around. We are not set up to handle customer calls and we generally refer calls to the distributors, otherwise I wouldn't get much work done...I would prefer not to refer the GTP38 as a "bastard" turbo, but it is true that it is unique and does not neatly fit into an established frame size. The product and applications engineers work on applications that are 2-5 years out, and the OE GTP38 is now out of production, so other than me and this new GTP38R, no one is working on it.

>>Turbonetics has no clue on this turbo.......nor do they have rebuild >>kits.

>>Still waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy to new.

As I've said, ATS is the only company that we've been working with so far.

>>The little "coinky-dink".....last week I started a thread on here >>talking about the ATS setup vs. the H2E. The general concensus was >>that the BB being "too new"..."unproven", and that "it SHOULD do >>this" or "it COULD do that"..or "that it MAYBE this"......now this >>week this thread pops up.

Indeed, the questions and speculation about the new ball bearing turbo is what prompted me to post. I thought you might like to know, instead of guess.

>>One thing that strikes me is......on the "Turbobygarrett" >>website........the GTP-38/GTP-38R.......is no where to be found.

The turbobygarrett.com site is a work in progress. There will be updates as soon as the information comes available.

>>Also, noting the site......GT37 is good for (300-550hp and 2.8L-3.8L >>engines) (being as how the GTP-38 is not mentioned). Now I >>know......that our PSD don't RPM like a 3.8L Grand National >>motor.....but it still seems a bit low on the displacement side. >>Correct me if I am wrong.

GT37 is just a tad smaller than the GTP38. The 2.8l-3.8l reference is for gasoline engines that rev to 6000 - 8000 RPM.

>> Its just that your profile is "naked"

OK, I will put some info in my profile, but for now this forum will be the only way to contact me...

>>One thing I noticed on the Holset site is how the Holset housing can be clocked to any position. Does anyone know if that is true w/ the Garrett?

The stock turbo and early versions with the ATS housing will be fixed orientation. The next edition of the upgrade turbo will have a compressor housing that will be indexable, but you'll have to figure out some way to mount the actuator if you do reclock. The compressor discharge will also be available with teh stock-style v-band or with a Hose connection. Turbine housing orientation is indexable in increments of 90 degrees.

>>How does using ball bearings on the shaft help with thrust loads, or >>are they angular contact bearings pressed onto the shaft and housing?
>>Do they require hardened journals on the housing or shaft, or do they >>have inner and/or outer races?
>>Could these be fitted into the TP-38?
>>Can you give the bearing dimensions?
>>Do the bearings turn at 100% of shaft speed?

Thrust load capability is many times greater with the ball bearing cartridge. The bearings are specially made to our specifications, and are opposed angular contact mounted in a one-piece outer cartridge/race with a two-piece inner race. Yes the bearing is pressed onto the shaft, but the outer race floats in the center housing on an oil film damper. The outher race is held in place by a pin and doesn't rotate. The bearing could fit with the TP38, but it requires a special casting, which is not available. Bearing dimensional specifics are proprietary, sorry.


I know that there were a few questions that weren't answered but I'm at home now and don't have access to specific info necessary to answer correctly. I will answer again after the holiday.

Happy Holidays,

Brian


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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#979976 - 12/25/02 11:44 AM

Brian,
Let me try asking about bearing dimensions in a different way, to avoid P/I issues: Measuring a well-used TP-38, the bearing OD is .6187", and the housing bore is .6210" If the shaft diameter is the same, and the bearing OD is within say .0500", we could either sleeve or enlarge the housing bore to match the new bearing OD.

Stangrcr1
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#983396 - 12/28/02 04:52 AM

ttt

beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#984337 - 12/28/02 10:17 PM

>>we could either sleeve or enlarge the housing bore to match the new >>bearing OD.

The new bearing is about an inch in diameter. I tried to come up with a way to economically install the ball bearing cartridge into the existing center housing, but gave up and tooled a new center housing casting. Not to say that with enough machine shop time that it couldn't be done, but it would be fairly involved. Besides, we are not planning to sell bearing cartridges separately at this time. Shaft dimensions are different, too.

Sorry again,

Brian


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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#987654 - 12/31/02 04:51 AM

<<Unfortunately, this upgrade will only fit the MY99.5 and up. Is there a market for earlier models? Don't answer here!! I may post another message covering this topic.>>

Post another message, I think you might be surprised to see the interest in an earlier model application.

Numn
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1014700 - 01/15/03 11:27 PM

ttt

Compressor map status?




beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1014837 - 01/16/03 12:51 AM

Turbo is on the Gas Stand tomorrow. I will post stock and upgrade compressor and turbine maps on www.turbobygarrett.com early next week. Horsepower/Torque/Acceleration results will follow shortly.

Brian

Numn
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1015142 - 01/16/03 08:59 AM

Thanks Brian, great news and much appreciated.

Menace
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1015278 - 01/16/03 10:24 AM

Brian,

Is that the Garrett version of the new turbo, or the ATS version (as I think you said they will be somewhat different)???

Tinscout
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1015470 - 01/16/03 01:10 PM

I need you to explain the A/R concept. On my '99 I've heard has .84 turbine A/R. Can A/R be changed by only changing the housing.

My truck runs 12-13 lbs boost cruising with trailer in tow and goes up sharply from there under acceleration. If I changed to a 1.0 A/R would that lower the back pressure? Would it lower the thrust load? would I be looking at longer spool times? What should I expect?

Anybody is welcome to chime in here.

Thanks Scott.

beddins
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1016129 - 01/16/03 07:41 PM

A/R's are like this:
the A is the is the size of the nozzle entry of turbine.
the R is the distance from the center of turbine wheel to center of the A.
A divided by R will give you your A/R ratio.
you can change the A without changing the R, but if you increase the R, the A will have to be increased to keep the same A/R ratio.

so,, your 99 model gtp38 has a .84 turbine housing. if you were to increase the A/R, the turbine size will increase, slowing down the turbine wheel, in that also it will decrease the turbine inlet backpressure, and lower boost at lower load levels.
in my opinion this .84 housing is entirely too small for this big motor. that is the reason for the wastegate, with the small housing and no wastegate it will make more boost than the turbocharger will like to make. if you have a larger a/r, peak boost will not be as high as with the lower a/r. the compressor housing on this turbo has also the same problem, it is too to small, that is why you see alot of surge problems, etc. if they could just get this turbo to slow down a little it might actually work ok. i think the optimal a/r ratio on this turbo should be like 1.32, that way its' peak boost would only be like 22, have alot less backpressure, and work well in the 2000 rpm and up range. the lag problem is not the turbo, it is the fuel. once you can get fuel to the motor it will have no lag. this is a 444 cubic inch engine, not a 2 liter, lag should be the last thing we think of!

beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1016596 - 01/16/03 11:01 PM

Beddins, That is a very accurate description of A/r. I just want to add that the A is the area of the volute section at the tongue (where the housing begins to wrap around on itself). Increasing the A/r allows more flow at a given turbo speed. This has the effect of lowering exhaust backpressure, and reducing pumping work done by the engine to get the burned gas out of the chamber. It will also slow the responce of the compressor to build boost. If the turbine was too small to begin with, the reduction in backpressure will offset the lower boost and you will get a net gain in power and overall engine efficiency. At some point, further increase in A/r and lower backpressure will not offset the lost boost and vehicle responce will be lost. Your turbine is too big.

Ford's objective was to get as much torque as possible just off idle without smoke, and that is what drove the need for the small A/r housing. With such a small housing, the turbo would overboost at higher engine speeds, so that's the reason for the wastegate. If you go to a larger A/r without doing anything else to improve engine volumetric efficiency, you will likely loose some of your off idle responce, but gain at higher engine speeds. If you do make mods to improve breathing, you can keep your low end torque and make gains at higher rpm.

What size turbine is correct? That depends upon what your objective is. For a typical upgrade, the 1.00A/r will be a good choice. With modifications to the intake and exhaust and extra fuel, you will be able to keep low end and get good gains throughout the rev range. Going larger will likely trade low end responce for high end gains. For some, that may be ok, but will compromise general streetability. For guys with monster horsepower, they will want a larger housing. As I get the Ball Bearing turbo going, I will consider offering a version of the non-wastegated 1.15A/r van housing as an option. Adding more fuel without a corresponding increase in boost will give more power, but also lots of tailpipe smoke, which, again may be desirable for some, but generally is unwanted.

Compressor Housing is a different story though. The compressor A/r is not nearly as important. The 1.00A/r stock housing is actually HUGE for this size compressor, and was chosen to try and optimize compressor efficiency for the boost characteristics of the engine. Most 12 to 15 liter CAT and DDC engines only use compressor housing A/r's of 0.69 to 0.81. Additionally, compressor A/r does not have much effect on surge characteristics.

Cheers,

Brian

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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1016627 - 01/16/03 11:16 PM

beanbooger,

No PM's?

Jason

beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1016640 - 01/16/03 11:21 PM

>>Is that the Garrett version of the new turbo, or the ATS version (as I think you said they will be somewhat different)???

The test will be run with the ATS housing. There should not be a appreciable performance difference with the Garrett Housing. I am in the process of kicking off tooling for the housing right now, so I am still a few months off from that housing being available.

Unfortunately, my test was delayed today due to calibration problems in the test cell, which is critical to accurate performance mapping. Hopefully they will get it figured out tonight and we will run tomorrow.

Brian


beanbooger
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1016648 - 01/16/03 11:23 PM

>>No PM's?

What is a PM?

Brian

BigDsDuty
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1016670 - 01/16/03 11:29 PM

Private Message. Goto "My Home", scroll down to Personal Info. and click edit. At the very bottom click to accept Private Messages.

Jason

BigDsDuty
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1016691 - 01/16/03 11:41 PM

Now click the little flashing envelope next to "Main Index".

Jason

Tinscout
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1017241 - 01/17/03 10:07 AM

Beddins,

What options do we ('99) have for turbine housings besides Banks 1.0? Is ATS selling a 1.0? Does the 1.15 from earlier trucks bolt onto the later model turbos?

beddins
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1017490 - 01/17/03 12:17 PM

far as i know, only one company is making housings for your turbo, that would be gale banks. it sucks because since they are the only ones, a 140 dollar turbine housing is now a 400 dollar turbine housing. it is a 1.00 A/R. the 99 up van model gtp38 uses a 1.15 A/R turbine. but you cannot buy just the turbine housing from ford.
i am in the middle of figuring out if the earlier 4 bolt 1.15 A/R turbine housing will fit the later turbo. my friend has one f these late moddel turbos, but won't let me disect it just yet. off hand the bolt pattern to bolt to cente section looks the same, but i don't know if the turbine wheel is the same diameter or not. lets say it was, and it would bolt up to your bearing housing. what to do next? make a oulet flange to connect to your dp. easy. get a older 4 bolt inlet flange to connect to turbine inlet. but then will the up pipes just connect to this older flange? that i will not know for a few weeks at least. the pipe size are the same, they connect the same, but i do not know if the arrangement is the same. your turbo sits 1.5" higher than the older tp-38, so you could not just use the older up pipes. i should have this all figured out in like a month. i have done this: just install a whole 94-97 tp-38 on late model. usd the early 99 intake thing, made an outlet flane for turbine, and the truck runs well. to make it easier for you, just go buy the early 99 van model turbo. it has the same compressor housing/wheel, turbine shaft/ housing as the 94-97, but has your v band turbine inlet connection, and your center section. that means it will bolt right up to your stuff. just need to make a new outlet flange for dp. no surging, no high boost, no wierd stuff, it just works. that, i think is the best "oe" turbo for these late models.
beanbooger i have always wondered about the configuration of these turbochargers. like you said, usually the compressor is much smaller, never seen anything like this untill i bought one of these motors.

Tinscout
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1017750 - 01/17/03 03:15 PM

In an earlier conversation with Mike Hallas, he stated that he did not think I would be happy with the 1.15 A/r van turbo. He thought I would lose driveability and suffer excess lag.

I did contact ATS but was unable to talk to Steve, who is supposedly in charge of the ball bearing turbo project. I was told that there is currently a shortage of the 1.0 A/r turbine housings. The conversation was left open ended about if or when that housing might become available.

On the truck you installed the early 38 on, what mods did the truck have, what was the primary use of the truck and what is your opinion of the driveability afterward?

Scott

P.S. If you need assistance with welding or fabrication I may be able to help.

beanbooger
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Posts: 52
Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1018418 - 01/17/03 10:37 PM

Your drivability will indeed suffer with the 1.15A/r, unless you make other changes to make up for lost low end torque. You will have some gain at higher engine speeds, though.

The van turbo is not a direct bolt-on to the late model turbo. The van turbo has a slightly larger turbine wheel.

The 1.0 is definitely available, and will continue to be for a long time.

Brian

beddins
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1018702 - 01/18/03 04:46 AM

i meant bolt on, meaning remove the 2 bolts on center section, lift old turbo out, install new assy. tinscout where are you located in texas?

Tinscout
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1022262 - 01/20/03 11:35 AM

( The 1.0 is definitely available, and will continue to be for a long time.

Brian )


Brian, help me out a little here, part numbers, who, where, how, etc.

Scott

beanbooger
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Posts: 52
Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1025268 - 01/21/03 09:39 PM

In reply to:

help me out a little here, part numbers, who, where, how, etc.




Gale Banks has the 1.00A/r available. And maybe ATS soon. Call Banks if you need one fast.

Brian

beddins
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1025520 - 01/21/03 11:24 PM

that is the problem, a turbine housing is not worth 400 dollars, but since evidently garrett is the only one that sells it i guess it is ok. do you not have a garrett number for the housing? it has to have a part number, otherwise we the public would not have one. right? if not a 1.0 what about a 1.15, i know that is a production size for this model turbo.

Tinscout
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Reged: 03/25/02
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Re: Garrett Ball Bearing GTP38R upgrade turbo new
#1028535 - 01/23/03 02:13 PM

I'm a dealer for ATS and now the word is that they are waiting on you to assign part numbers. PICK UP THE PACE!

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