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Looks like the MPG & Cackle thread was getting too large for the forum software to comfortably handle. Rather than risk it getting corrupt and possibly losing the great information contained therein, I've closed it and started this new one. Feel free to continue discussion here. Thanks, Jason |
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Whew!! Glad I wasn't the only one seeing the oddities! Chris Insert continuing thread here: \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ |
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Yeah me too, New to the board, typed my first post, hit the send button and it said thread locked. thought I had did something wrong. Great site! |
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TT, Do you have a total parts list for this setup yet? like the fuel lines lengths and details. I guess what IM trying to ask is a shopping list. It's early here, goin fishing offshore for some big sportfish. Gotta go, they just dropped the boat in the water for me. scott |
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So long "50-page-very-usefull-cackle-fix-thread-with-62496-views". It has been great. TT. What is the deal with you and Ford? Are they still working with you? Steve PS>If I havent' said it yet, great work by all you (TT, Hutch and whoever I have forgot) |
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note on fuel coolers, I have a real nice one on my boat . its built by a perkins sub. I have an electric pump that gets so hot the fuel was vapor locking, this water to fuel cooler get its so cold the carb gets condensation right at the fuel inlet. what am I saying THEY WORK REAL GOOD, on our psd we wont have the conveince of cold sea water, but a air the fuel cooler I belive like the ones in jegs and summit will be awesome. |
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They make a automatic air seperator for solar hydronic systems that automaticly removes the air from the system. They are installed at the highest point in the fluid system, ie; solar panel. Cost is about $15 obtained at any plumbing wholesaler supply. Working pressure is 60psi. I have cut open old units that I've replaced and don't see why they would not work with diesel as there all metal parts enternally. Granted it's been 10yrs since I've replaced one but I really don't see them redesigning the valve in the past 10yrs. Why did they need replaced? The water salts out plugging the automatic valve orifice causing them to leak water. With that in mind, one would have to check them regularly for leaking fuel but I wouldn't think they would have to be checked any more than any other part in the fuel system. Most of the leaks were weeping type leaks, not full flow leaks. I only had to replace one out of maybe 100 that was leaking enough water to drip off the roof. How do they work. The air will always flow to the highest point in a fluid system. The air traps with-in the top of the valve body chamber and when there is enough air in the chamber the bleeder valve falls open because of the air density is less than the fluid density causing the valve to open thus expelling the air and the fluild pushes the valve shut without leaking fluid. They need to be installed verticaly and are about 3" long with 1/4npt on the inlet. |
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I just did a "Print Thread" followed by a "Save As .." on the original thread. I don't want to print the whole thing but at least I can reference it easily since it's now on my hard drive. Just a thought. 
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Great idea to save the old thread, just remember to save it as a web archive / single file. That will save the formatting and make it more viewable in the future. It only takes about 3.5 MB of disk space. |
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Well, I finally got to check my fuel at the filter Saturday. I have replace the line at the fuel pump, but have no other mods to the fuel system. I checked the fuel after the truck sat for a few hours, and the fuel flowed clear. I then drove to town and back, about 35 miles, and checked again. Again, the fuel ran clear. Tank is at 3/4. So I think that the lines outside my tank are doing o.k. for now. One thing that did happen when I opened the drain that I did not like was a severe case of idle knock. close the drain and it goes away. Every time I open the drain, it starts knocking. I feel that this agrees with TT and the truck he fixed that had fuel delivery problems. So, I will be checking my pump pressure and flow soon. I have not decided what I like best though for the closed fuel system in the heads, the air bleeds, or an actual return. If I go with a return line, then I will pull the tank and ditch the stock system. By the way, I am over 100,000 miles, so warrenty is not an issue. Dave |
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Grinder Your results are exactly what TT obtained. When he turned the pressure down on the fuel regulators the idle knock became louder in the trucks. When he turned the pressure up to high he got smoke. If your draining from your stock filter drain its probably causing the fuel pressure to drop way too low. Doug B. |
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Grinder ................................................................. Grinder said: "I have not decided what I like best though for the closed fuel system in the heads, the air bleeds, or an actual return" ................................................................. I though TT WAS returning his fuel to the tank???? I thought the closed system is what we have now?....can you clairify this for me please. I am getting my part together now and don't want to get confused....maybe I'm already there:( |
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Just for convenience here's a link back to the orignal MPG AND CACKLE thread. http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB33&Number=595977&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=2&fpart= |
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Hey Guys: Haven't had the time to catch up on the obvious amount of information since I last had access to a computer, so forgive me if I can't pick up on some significant development. Thought I had better share the results of my "test" setup on this trip. My idle knock is back. I haven't been able to play with anything (I now have the minimum return pill and max pressure) The fuel pressure readings are as stock, and the spikes are still there, although diminished. It looks (after 400 gallons) like the fuel consumption is improved 5 - 10%. Only bad tank I had was high 6's with winter blend in severe storm in mountains, so consider it an abberation. I feel after 3,000 miles that I have some power improvement in the cackle range. I agree with Hutch's conclusions that TT's setupn with the return and regulation at the end of the system is necessary to stabilize the operating fuel pressures accross the whole system. (my measurement pooint is at the end of the rail). Regards - Pat |
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Pat, is your pressure still dropping at start up and under load? My understanding of a pressurize fuel rail, is the regulator is suppose to keep the pressure in the rails at a stead rate. If you have a pressure drop, you might have a problem with your fuel pump not being able to keep up. I'm not knocking all the work that's been done on these trucks, but has anyone tested the fuel pressure pre and post stock regulator. If the pressure on cackle trucks is dropping below 60 under load, that may account for the cackle and the knock. Alot of dead end fuel rails, gas and diesel, are in use today. The important thing is to keep the pressure high enough for the injectors. Low pressure might also cause the pressure wave from 6 to 8. Higher pressure might minimize this. It would also explain why some trucks have it and some don't. Worn fuel pump or some aren't set right from the factory. Anyone have thoughts on this. Next week I'm taking my truck to a friend who is a diesel mechanic, we're going to check this out in his shop. Two pressure guages, pre and post reg., see what the fuel pump is doing. |
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Rooster, Pat Dolan installed an air bleed in the same place that TT is installing his return lines. This was to see if just removing what air he could would improve his truck. Dave |
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Well, my fiance and I took a trip to Atlanta this weekend. The truck ran well and pretty quiet with a lot more power than any previous trip. So far I have only done the pre-pump and tank sending unit mods that Hutch "developed". Fuel mileage is up at least 0.5 MPG. This was with the autopilot engaged at 75-76 MPH. There were some instances of 78-80 MPH and also some 40-50 (dang stinkin' road construction  ). Here is data from the two refuelings that I have done since the mods:
--Tank 1: ----396.0 miles on 24.450 gallons = 16.196 MPG (overhead computer showed 15.7) --Tank 2: ----330.2 miles on 19.990 gallons = 16.518 MPG (overhead computer showed 15.8) Tank 1 had some city driving (about 75 miles) and about 100 miles of 78-80 MPH whereas tank 2 mostly insterstate at 73-76 MPH with about 80-100 miles of 50-60 MPH. This is an improvement over what used to be about 15.5-16.0 calculated MPG. Yes, I am smilin' 
On the return trip, we stopped off just before Augusta and, you guessed it, met Hutch and his family. First let me say this, and I ain't tryin' to kiss up to anyone (that ain't my style). My impressions of Hutch and his work were right on. He pays attention to detail, takes pride in his work and is an all-American person. His wife and son are very nice "down-to-earth" people too. My fiance couldn't say enough nice things about them. Anyway, we took a ride in my truck first and then in his. His truck is really quiet compared to a lot of trucks I have heard. At highway speeds of 65-75 MPH, there is no sound except for a quiet jet engine, I mean turbo charger, under the hood. I can't wait to do the fuel regulator mod to my truck, hoping that it will improve it even more. At idle, his truck is a little louder than mine but I attribute that to the early '99 design compared to a '00 design. There were a few major differences in the engines, notably the turbo charger itself and the HP oil lines. Even the cosmetic fuel filter cover was different. Hutch showed me an injector that he is going to have tested and cleaned. They're definitely more complex than the ones on my 1970 Massey-Ferguson. He also showed me what a small amount of water will do to injectors - not good, friends - it looked like someone had taken some 60-grit sandpaper to it. Our trucks have one thing in common that has got us wondering; the knock in the #7 injector. His truck with the regulator and mine without it both have it. Hutch thinks, and I (with my limited knowledge of these monsters) agree, that HP oil system is the area that needs to be explored. I am not trying to speak for Hutch here but he has a good mechanical background and explained the concept of it to me well. Thanks for the "truck tour", Hutch (and also the re-route around the road construction). I'll post on the mileage data later after I refuel. |
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Hutch: Are you considering the high pressure oil cross-over that the guys in the 94-97 forum are doing? I am going to do it on the 1995 and see if it will solve the rough idle. I have been waiting for someone to try all of your fuel mods plus the high pressure oil mod to learn what the results will be...hopefully outstanding! Arch |
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Thanks Grinder, Maybe you or another person can answer another question for me....How do you measure the cylinder pressure? Is this done with a OBD-II? |
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I have the accumulator I purchased for the fuel system that I am not going to use on the fuel system, so I am going to tie the L&R head HP oil circuits together with the accumulator and see what that does. This 1 cylinder knock really has me upset, it does not come or go with rpm, it's always there, I'll find it one way or another 
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Hutch, TT, Larry, FMTRVT (?), and others, You guys are doing an awesome job! I know it's been said over and over, but I'm seriously impressed with the time and effort y'all have put into this fix. If I'm ever in any of y'alls neck of the woods, we have to meet up for a beer and to compare trucks. On another note, I just got a SCMT last week, and after installing the 80 hp program my audible cackle disappeared. While I'm well aware that the truck is not fixed per se, I'm very happy to have a smooth sounding engine once again. Keep up the awesome work guys! |
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Hutch and anyone else who has done the tank and line mods, I did the mods this week end and I have to agree there is definately more power and the computer calculated mileage at this time is actually showing 18.5. Before it use to show 16.2 with the same kind of driving I do all the time, and it is also quieter(sp)the cackle is not there all the time but seems to come and go??????why I dont know??? For those of you that have done the tank and line mods and the regulator, which mod did what, or is it a combination of both that solved the cackle. I am very pleased with the results to this point Hutch and TT excellent work and much thanks. "There done cummin's im still Strokin" Edited by CHEVMN56 (03/18/02 07:29 PM) |
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Sorry, I posted a NO-NO. SORRY....new here. :-) Edited by johnm (03/22/02 03:08 PM) |
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Keeper of the Forum: Great that the thread keeps going. * WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THE SUPER WIDE WINDOWS * ??? It happens intermittently, and really detracts (and distracts) from the content posted. Thanks, David P. |
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CHEVMN56, I did the short hose right behind the fuel pump. Must have really been leaking because I am seeing as high as 1.5 MPG improvment with just that one thing!!!! I will be doing the tank this weekend and hopefully the regulator (if I can find one this week). From what I have read on the threads I believe it is a combo of Hutch's tank fix and Dougs fuel rail fix that brings balance to the force. |
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OK, I've checked with a local lawyer if it was OK if I posted on this new thread since I said I would not in "MPG and Cackle". She said no conflict since even though it's a continuation, it's not technically the same name - Thanks Hillary. The intent here is to document what is happening as best I can within the fuel rail, while trying not to alter the OE system for returnability to stock condition. The premise for now is that the OE filter housing does an intended job, so I want to retain it's ability to return any pick up air from fuel sloshing back in the tank. The OE fuel pressure regulator incorporates a bleed orifice within its piston which can be used for air return. No fuel pickup will prevent air from being picked up during turns, braking or other conditions and I don't want it going thru the heads. This test system used the OE pressure regulator at varying pressures, as well as a post head bleed system. A ball valve at the added lines adjusts the volume flow. The pressure is monitored with a pressure transducer and slow rate (13 Hz) data acquisition. What's been completed so far is a series of checks to benchmark the stock system and several bleed situations to provide discussion opportunities. It is not provided to promote one method over another. Since to this date I have not been able to find any significant amount of air within my system, I have not altered the in-tank fuel pick up or its delivery to the motor. Again, just stating the facts, not trying to debate merits. The first page documents the stock system under varying conditions with 1/8 tank, then comparing to a fuel tank. I didn't expect to find any variations, but just try to document the situation. Don't read into this more then stated. The second page shows the stock pressure spring with a slight amount of fuel being bled thru the heads. I did not run any full acceleration checks due to the low pressure. However, it should be noted that this motor will idle with pressures down to at least 15 psi, as low as I went. The third page date incorporates a shim to kick the fuel pressure up to 65 psi and the bleed valve closed. The pressure was adjusted by placing a 4-40 Allen hex head screw that is ground to a set length. The threaded section is kept to 1/4" length to prevent the regulator from bottoming. The head of the screw is ground to a height of 0.065". There is a direct relationship of pressure adjustment to height. I.E., on my regulator, a height of 0.110" (stock) will develop a pressure of 110 psi at idle. The screw fits into the spring at the output end. The fourth page shows the runs with the 65 psi setup, but with additional fluid flowing through the bleed valve to balance at a lower pressure. The fifth page is with a 110 psi setup, no bleed. And the sixth page with the 110 psi, system, but again the valve open more to retain a normal 65 psi pressure within the heads. This is all I had time for last week and will try to do more when I'm back at my shop next week. Pics |
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FMTRVT, Interesting. From your data, is it fair to say that there is probably a fuel pressure limit that when exceeded provides nothing in return, except high idle pressures? Or is this a limitation of the fuel pump and delivery system? This could be the start of proof that shimming our fuel pumps to provide more fuel pressure does not really improve fuel rail pressure, except at idle. Just a thought or two, Rickie |
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The picture of the hose entering the fuel tank fill tube, is that where you are running your return line off the restricted orifices? Try running the fuel from the orifices back with the factory return line to the mixing valve and see what happens, it will run like doo doo, the factory return line will recirculate and return the fuel you have dropped from a high pressure to low pressure which will agitate the fuel. As far as any air entering the fuel system with the factory regulator by-passed it will not hurt a thing to run it through the heads as long as two things happen #1 since the air will rise to the top of the rail if ALL the return fuel is being returned to the tank from the ends of the fuel rails the air will follow the top of the rail and be exhausted back to the tank as long as the voulme of fuel through the heads must be sufficent to overcome the split shot feed back into the fuel rails #2 you must eliminate the mixing valve, even in the stock set-up with returning the fuel from the filter assembly the fuel will be aggitated and you do not want that fuel fed back to the engine without giving it time to "calm & cool down" this is best accomplished by returning the fuel to the tank and letting it mix and dilute itself with the "fresh" fuel in the tank. Also the factory regulator is in the worst place it could have been installed, it has to see THROUGH the fuel filter before it can adjust the fuel pressure for varying load and fuel damands, you would not believe how much smoother my truck accelerates and pulls with the fuel regulation at the ends of the fuel circuits, go back and look at the early PSD fuel systems, they all regulated the pressure at the END of the circuit, that is where the regulator must be placed before it can function quickly and most important see the load and function properly. |
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Hutch, Like many others I've been following this thread and have a question regarding cackle. Many have said that cackle occurs in a general rpm range of 1400 to 2000rpm. What happens in the fuel system above 2000rpm that causes the cackle to "stop" or perhaps be more difficult to hear? My understanding at the moment is that insufficient fuel flow and/or pressure .. for a number of reasons .. is the cause of cackle. Does that mean that above a certain rpm there is sufficient fuel flow or a more stable fuel pressure? Thanks. |
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Above 2000 rpm the fuel cackle just reaches a higher frequenct that is hard to hear, like a dog whistle, you can't hear it, but it's still working. In short the frequency is too high. |
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K9 i have asked that very Q no less than 5 times, finally someone answers. |
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Does anyone know if there is braided stainless steel hose that is flexible that can be used in place of bending steel tubing for use with the regulator? Hutch, did you post or are you planning on posting some pics of the precise locations you tapped into with your lines and how they come off and reroute near the fuel filter? If you already posted these, let me know and I'll look again. I'm really in need of a parts list with names of fittings and sizes that I can ask for at a parts store. Please don't flame me, I'm not a mechanic, but I can turn some wrenches when I need to. I just need to be pointed in the right direction with the right parts list. Sometimes pictures are worth a 1000 words. -David |
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PSDForever: This site --> http://www.swagelok.com/ will lead you in the right direction if you want braided stainless that won't leak. I used their compression fittings and tubing when I did my tank sending unit mod and they are nice. You will pay an extra nickle or two for them though. |
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Resonance, everything has a resonant frequency, when the engine rpm, pump and injector action all come toghther the "combined" action of all the components may be causing frequencies that at certian rpm's resonate within the fuel & oil rails and cause the oil and /or fuel to become unstable and the walls encapsulating the fluids could actually resonate so violently they will cause the fluids to "stand off" of not contact the walls of the rails, this happens in high rpm or large displacement carberated race motors, the high frequency vibrations from the engine can actually cause the fuel not to stay in contact with the passages and/or jets in the carberator and the fuel cannot be metered or flow correctly, the racers install phenolic spacers between the carberator and intake manifold to kill these vibrations and not let them pass through to the carberator and then the engine can be tuned more consistantly. The same thing could be happening in these engines, these engines have an extreme amount of cylinder perssure and HP oil pressure when a load is introduced at a lower rpm, so it could also be a combination of the way the hp oil pump ramps pressure and the ecm increases the injector duty cycle suddenly at 1400-1500rpm, so below the "bad" or resonant rpm range there is time for the fuel to stabilize and flow to #8 and after the "bad" rpm range there is sufficent fuel flow to partially overcome the split shot feedback. |
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In reply to: Jack and all, I agree that the OE filter housing should be allowed to functcion as an air bleed. I've been trying to think of a way to do that. I think I may have the answer. PIC HERE The needle valve is an Aerosmith product like the regulator Hutch is using. Part number 7832K21 from mcmaster MCMASTER Flow formulas and dimensions found at: DIMENSIONS and: CALCS Max flow at full open for this valve should be about a pint per minute. Its $55.25 but its adjustable low enough that the stock fuel pump will be able to handle and still provide enough cool fuel and flow to the rails. Also any added aeration from the needle valve should not be a problem
The stock regulator would need to be adjusted to hold a lower pressure than the new regulator. This would in effect let the higher pressure held by the new regulator through to the needle valve. Ray |
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If air in the filter housing is a concern just put a schrader fitting on the factory regulator return line and bleed the housing at filter changes etc., if the fuel supply to the engine is unareated than running what little air through the heads that you will get into the system is no big deal, the big deal with the air in the fuel of a PSD is the dead end rails that force the air through the injectors, as long as there is fuel flow through the heads which will allow the air an escape path back to the fuel tank don't worry about it. I have ALLOT more concern about running a constant stream of fuel through an orifice or needle valve and having the fuel that flows through that orifice change state than I do about what small amount of air that will pass harmlessly through the heads and back to the tank once to return lines are installed. |
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Hutch...have you thought about using larger lines than 1/4" for connecting the RH & LH to the regulator? I was thinking since you are regulating at the end of the fuel system and trying to provide the engine with as much fuel as it can us then sending the rest to the tank....then volume would be key. The pressure would be there from the regulator anyway provided the stock pump could keep up. Do you know what size lines Navstar runs on their trucks? I will try to call around today and find out. Also what are the 2 smaller 1/8" (I think) lines that reside on the left side of the filter housing? They appear to connect the LH & RH together somehow? In addition....if you ever come down around Dallas you and your family are welcomed to come out to our ranch and have a steak on us for all your great work. I promise I won't ask you to help me work on the truck!
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There was an interesting letter and feedback in this month's Trailer Life, regarding cackle. It referenced the same TSB that has to do with installing a LL in #8 and flashing the PCM. The interesting part was they said Ford said that a side effect of the LL in #8 was a knocking noise at idle. It's the first time I had heard that. Thought it'd be more information to chew on... |
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The two lines coming off the left lower side of the fuel filter housing are the 1/4" fuel lines that supply fuel to the heads. TBROKER |
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just a question ? does any one know what the purpose of the check valves in the fuel lines going into the heads are for??? just wondering |
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Glow_plug, is this article available on-line? Steve |
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What is the tool TT used to get the cylinder pressure curves? I want to take my truck to a shop after the fuel line mod to check my pressure curves and need to know exactly what to ask for. Even better, anyone know of a shop in Houston that has one? Thanks! - John |
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johnS the equipment Doug is using to check cylinder pressures cost about $15,000-$25,000 and the probes that actually measure the cylinder pressure are $2,500 each and have a very limited life span of about 100,000 cycles, this testing is not cheap and it is highly unlikley you'll find the equipment avialable for "public use" ----------------------------------------------------------- Tbroker, The lines that exit the filter housing on the passenger side are the fuel feed lines to the L&R cylinder heads ----------------------------------------------------------- tjetmech, the check valves hold the fuel pressure in the heads so the pump does not have to re-fill/re-pressurize the fuel in the heads every time the engine is restarted, this helps the engine start quicker. |
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In reply to: Hutch, This pressure will no longer be maintained with the use of the regulator at the ends of the fuel rails...will it? Does your truck maintain the 63psi in the rails after shutting it off, or does it bleed down after a period of time? |
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DieselRay, conceptually your design has merits, but I do have few suggestions. 1) If your stock regulator is adjusted to a pressure that is lower than your "add-on" regultor, you will not be getting any flow through the heads or this new "add-on" regulator thereby negating all of the work you've done to install this. 2) As far as that return line from the stock filter/regulator, you might want to consider either removing it and plugging, ...or at least adding a check valve between your Tee and the stock filter/regulator return line. This would ensure that the return fuel from your new regulator (Read:hot fuel) did not back-feed into the filter housing and through the heads. Besides that, I have really enjoyed wathcing the thread evolve. Lots of smart cookies out there. But alas, profitablity will almost always stand in the way of proper engineering. If Ford had NASA'a budget, nary a cackling PSD would exist. Cheers, Toolman |
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Hutch...I might be mistaken here but while doing a visual check the other day, I could have sworn that the 1/4" lines coming out of the left-side of the filter housing was only had a short piece of rubber pushed into the 1/4" tubing and then pushed onto the filter houseing. Much like a vacume line....this was only a short visual check and I cannot sware to it. I was looking at the test ports at the time. Maybe another source of air in the system? |
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Hutch's truck holds about 50 PSI (if I recall correctly) after shutting down the engine. If I understand correctly, a system that doesn't hold the pressure will have a leak somewhere (O-rings most likely or faulty check-valve). Believe me, Hutch's truck is solid and he isn't done yet. |
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ROOSTER, Thats the fuel filter housing drain line. As I stated above the two 1/4" lines coming out the passenger side of the filter housing are the fuel lines that feed the heads and injectors. These are 1/4" steel tubing connected with vibra lok fittings that are designed for use on engines or other machines where there is vibration. There is no hose on these lines. TBROKER |
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Hutch, The design of the filter housing was to remove air right? Both during a filter change and normal operation. The return from the filter housing is the highest point in the system. Air will find its way to this highest point some way or another. How well will the filter work when its housing is full of air? Robyn are you there? I bet you'll find a black crudy ring around the bottom of the filter. As far as constantly running fuel through an orifice, Wouldn't that have shown up as a problem in the old Design OLD DESIGN since it uses a .020-inch orifice to return hot/warm fuel to the tank? Toolman1, The idea of lowering the stock regulator pressure is to let pressure through. You could consider the stock regulator not even there in that case. The pressure will build past it through to the needle valve/orifice. No check valve should be needed since the tee is in a low to no pressure environment on the return side of both the regulator and needle valve/orifice. Theres no way I can see that it could back flow through the housing. Ray |
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FYI, Here is the Trailer Life Article from The April 2002 Issue on "Ford Injector Cackle" Since day one of purchasing a new truck, a noise that sounds like a collapsed valve lifter has been present in the vehicle. Iusually notice it first thing in the morning, with the vehicle under a minimal load, with no trailer, and on a slight incline of about one block. We have read in Trailer Life about the number eight cylinder fuel-injector clack. Response: We have had a slew of requests for information on clacking noises referred to by Ford as a "cackle" on 1999 and up Power Stroke Diesels. Advise your dealer to check Broadcast Message no. 8605; and TSB numbers 00-10-1 and 00-22-1. This applies to injector cackle on 1999-2000 E-series and F-series SuperDuty trucks and 2000 Excursions, which may exhibit an injector cackle that occurs with a hot engine; with fuel pressure greater than 55 PSI; and no other performance concerns; on vehicles driven at least 20 miles since the last injector removal; with no base engine concerns. Vehicles exhibiting these symptoms are candidates for a new fuel injector to be installed in the number eight cylinder only. Ford states that this condition is not detrimental to the engine, and is the result of oscillations in the fuel pressure causin the number eight cylinder to run lean. Installing the revised injector may result in a more consistent and deeper sounding knock noise from the engine. Well thats it I am going to submitt an question to Trailer Life asking what Ford's response is when the supposed fix does not fix the problem and also what about all the 2001-2002's that cackle. |
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Thank you. "Installing the revised injector may result in a more consistent and deeper sounding knock noise from the engine. " Geez, one would think they would have jumped on this big time!??? In any event, several of us are on the pursuit of knowledge from a variety of sources (radio, newspaper, mags etc). Looks like the word may get out in a good way. Let's hope so. If you get an answer from Trailer Life, let us know. Steve |
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DieselRay, A regulator does one thing, regulates pressure, air passing through a regulator will effect it's operation so saying the factory regulator is an air return is really not accurate, also if there is any air in the system and it gets returned to the tank that is bad news as well, the mixing valve in the tank will keep returning that air and aerated fuel to the engine. There are 2 ways of keeping pressure in a fuel system, #1 use a constant volume fuel pump and was a regulator to regulate the pressure and return any "overage" to the tank which is the tried and true was to plumb a diesel fuel system or #2 varied fuel pressure can be accomplished with a variable pressure/flow pressure sensing pump, these are allot more costly than the regulator set-up and would not work as well as the regulator, I personally like the regulator over the variable pump because volume of the return diesel fuel will help cool ALL the components in the fuel system and pump, the variable pump system would dead end the fuel then harmonics and heat saturation will once again come into play with their negative impact on the fuel. The diagram you referenced to is also a poor design, once agian they are returning hot aggitated fuel directly to the fuel rails and engine, the regulator is also at the END of the circuit in this design which is how it should be done, the reason they may have gotten away with this design was it was not used with split shot injectors except in Calif. and an accumulator was required to be installed in the systems that had split shot injectors, the fuel tanks in this system did not have the mixing valve in the tank, the hot aggitated fuel was returned to the engine at the worst point, directly out of the fuel rails. If you will look at the regulator in my installation the return is the highest point in the system, and the only path back to the tank. Giving the fuel multiple travel paths or loops is not a good idea, there are too many variables and differing fuel load requirements to count on a restricted return accomplishing the required task of increasing the volume of fuel required to overcome the split-shot feedback in the fuel rails. Yes the Aeromotive regulator does maintain 50psi with the engine shut off, the regulator closes when the pressure drops below the point at which the regulator is set and the check valves hold the pressure, I would leave them there for now, or until they present a problem, I checked the fuel flow through both heads to make sure there was no restriction or blockage in either head, there was no differenct in the amount of fuel that would flow through the return lines. P.S. The scan of the fuel system you posted a link to is mine, I am the one who scaned it onto my computer and posted it months ago and that's my hand writing at the bottom of the page. Edited by hutchinaugusta (03/20/02 12:00 PM) |
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Hutch, Ok, so let me ask one question with Dougs design and your implementation. Reason is I still see a problem even though the Aeromotive regulator is at the highest point in the system. Call me crazy. Question is: If air does get into the fuel filter housing will it/can it go through to the rails imediately or will the air have to collect enough to reach the top of the feeds to the rail first? If the air has to collect enough to get to the top of the rail feeds before it passes then there may be a problem with proper filter operation. Thats my real concern. Otherwise, who cares and we can use the design as it is without much of a problem other than doing something about the factory pickup mixing bubble blower. By the way I did say I got that pic from a previous post the first time I used it but wasn't sure it came from you. I left in your handwriting so it wouldn't look like I was trying to pass it off as my own work. I'll mention it came from you if I happen to use it again. Thanks Appreciate your comments Ray |
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sreardon, Here is what went to Trailer Life.Dear RV Tech, I read with much interest (and hope) your April 2002 issue in which you addressed the "Ford Injector Cackle" on 1999 and 2000 PSD's. To my surprise the 2001 and 2002 models were omitted from this response. I can understand why this is as Ford started installing the "special injector" (known as LL8, long lead injector) in the 2001 and 2002 models. Well unfortunatly many of us lucky 2001 and 2002 PSD owners (and for that matter 99 and up PSD's) have the dreaded injector cackle and because we already have the supposed fix we are told this is normal diesel noise and it will not harm the engine. Well I hate to burst anyones bubble but the injector cackle is affecting the performance and in some of the worse cases the longevity of some of the internal engine parts. There is currently an effort going on in the Ford-Diesel.com web forum to solve this problem with some early successes, this one thread has had more than 60,000 views. There have been very detailed investigations that show dramatic HP and fuel mileage losses directly related to the "injector cackle". My question for the Tech guru's at Trailer Life is do you know of any additional solutions coming from Ford or any other solutions to this "Injector Cackle"?? Many Thanks |
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question about: the check valves hold the fuel pressure in the heads so the pump does not have to re-fill/re-pressurize the fuel in the heads every time the engine is restarted, this helps the engine start quicker. shouldn't the pump have time to pressurize the sytem before the "Wait to Start" light goes out? How long will it take to get it up to pressure? |
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shouldn't the pump have time to pressurize the sytem before the "Wait to Start" light goes out? How long will it take to get it up to pressure ----------------------------------------------------------- Believe it or not, not everyone waits for the wait to start light to go out, Ford knew this would happen and planned ahead, I am sure the check valves have saved them lots and lots of "hard starting" warranty claims. |
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Hutch, Does this mean that the scan you took of the 98.5 and newer design HUTCHES SCAN 98.5 AND NEWER is wrong when it says "A check valve is located on both heads to prevent fuel pressure spikes in the fuel rail" or does it suit that purpose as well? |
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Ford's description is incorrect, think about it, the fuel flows into the heads through the check valves, with the direction of fuel flow the only pressure spikes the check valves could prevent would be pressure surges back towards the filter and fuel pump in the reverse direction of the fuel flow through the check valves, it is the fuel flow through the check valves toward the head that opens them and reverse flow or a reverse pressure differential is the only way they will close. The pressure spikes are generated within the fuel rail so a check valve on the fuel feed will do nothing regarding the spikes other that contain and possibly amplify them within the fuel rail, when and if the pressure spikes become violent enough to cause the fuel to "back flow" enough to actually close or seat the check valves. |
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You guys also note on the drawing dieselray has a link to. What does the drawing show being done with the return fuel? I do not see the mixing valve in the drawing, do you? It's like the design/engineering people don't actually know what went into production.  What's up with that?
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Ya'll keep an eye on Hutch...nothing gets by him. If it does, he'll catch up with it and stomp on it!
For those who are questioning Hutch's and TexasTowncar's implementation of the regulator...believe me...it's simple, it works and it works well. I'm a first-hand witness. Now, if Summit would hurry the heck up with the backorder thing... I too was wondering about the air in the filter bowl after a filter change or the 5k-mile "water" drain. If one wanted to, for extra security, a line from the old regulator port on the filter housing to a manual lever valve to a "T" in the return line should do the trick. Just turn the valve when the fuel pump is running to refill the bowl and purge the air, close the valve and fire up the horses. What do you think, Hutch? |
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I was going to pull the lid off my filter tonight when I get home without opening the drain to check the fuel level inside the housing and see if it is low, I will photo and let you all know what I find, installing a schrader valve in the old regulator would also plug up the old return line fitting and give a place to purge air if needed, We'll see  I would not run a restricted factory return back to the tank and return the fuel from the ends of the fuel rails.
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Can anybody tell me where the fuel filter drains from. Does it physically drain from the interior of the filter where the supply to the fuel rails are or the outside where the fuel enters at the bottom and is returned to the tank at the top. Larry |
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I think I saw the drain feed on the outside of the filter or unfiltered fuel part of the housing |
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I think it drains from the lowest point outside of the filter since the concept of the drain is to remove the water/debris in the fuel. |
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Hutch/Wombat, Thanks, if you see anything which confirms that would you please let me know, but that sounds reasonable to drain the gunk and water out of the dirty side of the filter area. Also is the fuel supply and return right in the same area(i.e. return right above the supply) and where around the filter is the drain in relation to these two. I'd look at mine, but it's under the cowling on my van and even to get a good look at it I have to disassemble my whole air intake box that covers the whole front top of the engine compartment on my one in a million vehicle .
Larry |
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Hutch, The schrader valve in stead of the plug in the regulator (old) is a better idea. I was planing on tapping a hole in the top of the filter lid and putting a schrader valve in there but this new method sounds better. Chris |
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munchster, It kills two birds for the price of one, ehh?
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Hutch, The schrader valve you speak of, what exactly does it do? Does it automaticly exspell excess air out of the system without letting fuel escape? I have scraped together most of the parts I need to do the tank & the regulator. Regulator will be here Friday, Jegs has a few in stock at this time. Do you have any idea how the #8 LL injector will effect my motor when combined with the regulator mod? I think I remembered Doug saying something about changing it out but what are your thoughts? |
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HUTCH starting to think of eng. reg and return lines . thinking of doing a re route of left head pressure line to aft of head like rt head is to keep fuel flow lengths to aprox same length. would also put both return at front high point of heads plus a even more ballanced system. saw in threads that engine fittings are a type called vibra lok do you know if this is correct . really isnt different from your mods just a little different .also thinking of ideas floating air in fuel filter and some way of purging. do you know if fuel pressure bleeds off fuel filter after shut down ,it looks as though it remains pressurized thought i saw that there is a check valve in pumps maybe i'm thinkin of another sys. any thoughts??? |
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I really do not think "equal length" lines would be of any benifit, this is a fluid not time alignment of speakers or anything like that. Doug has the flexible hose and fastners he is using listed @ texastowncar |
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HUTCH just one more thing what about check valves on outlet side of heads to keep any vibes from going to other head ,out of head to reg. so both sides are isolated?? thanks for all info !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 |
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Do not put check valves on the fuel outlets from the heads to the regulators during these mods, there is no reason to, my regulator is open inside to both feed ports from the L&R heads so one side may actually be helping stabilize the other side. |
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I was planning on purchasing a 2002 F250 diesel in July (in Dallas). I've been reading all of these threads about crakel & milage degradation, and I'm now really concerned about the diesel. Spending $42.0K is a big investment! If anyone could help me with answering a few questions: 1. Go ahead and buy my Ford diesel and take my chances: a. Install the "crakel" and fuel line fixes immediately. b. Wait until problems occur and then begin the fixes. 2. Don't buy the Ford diesel until Ford comes out with a true factory/warranty fix. 3. Forget about Ford and look at a Chevy or Dodge. I appreciate any constructive criticism. Thanks for the help! |
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Hutch, Is it necessary to gut the stock regulator? Is it adjustable? I'm ready to take the plunge, just not sure what to do about that. |
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Koeingsburg, First let me welcome you to Ford-Diesel.com, from the looks of your post you already know what a great site this is. Answers: Buy the truck, cackle or not it's still the best truck on the market IMHO. If the cackle does rear it's ugly head at least there is a fix and YOU can fix it. Just boggles my mind why F$#d can't. To answer number 2 please re-read answer #1 #3 I wouldn't even consider it myself! See ya, Shane |
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Hutch did a 700 +, mile round trip yesterday, got back around 8pm, read my new trailer life(i am a junkie) they had a q from an ol boy about cackle, looked to me they gave the standard F&*d answer, I dodnt think they will be onboard any time soon. HOWEVER, if you get a copy read under RECALLS, daimler/Chrylser is recalling a bunch of 2002 libertys for a panel that could fall off while driving and scare you enough to wreck........ the panel is on the drivers lower door. so I am thinking. when cackle comes on "IT SCARES ME ENOUGH TO HAVE UNCONTROLLED SPASMS AND I WRECK" maybe they could do a recall based on that , save some face..... and put your mod on my truck. I AM DREAMING. anyway, my wife finally drove my second sweetheart, i was tired, man o man did she like it. she was pushing 80 when I awoke and grinning ear to ear. (she is only 5ft tall) so the dually is really big for her.....so she she say, what alteration is next, well we proceeded to talk about cackle and hutch mods and tt and others. short story I am ordering the parts now... she really liked how the go pedal responded to her toes touching the thing.. 75 mph = 14.2=13.9 draft behind a semi 15.1 not very good, I was hoping after 3000 miles she would get better. didnt happen. rob |
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Koeingsburg, ditto on welcome to the site, You have mail! Somebody needs to remind me why I bought the truck, because for the life of me and the dreaded cackle, I have plumb forgot. Where are the diesel advantages? "Koe" GO GASSER! Doug B. |
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The factory regulator can be shimmed to increase the spring pressure and raise the pressure it by-passes at, so the factory regulator can be adjusted it's just not as easy to adjust as an aftermarket unit. You will plug the return out of the factory regulator when installing the by-pass set up, it is not required to gut I just removed the plunger and spring more for curiosity than anything else. |
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Has anyone done a complete 'how to' article on the fuel system fixes with photos and parts lists for both the tank and fuel rail/regulator ends? Or is there someone selling a 'kit' with all the required parts. Just looking for the easiest way forward without having to reinvent the wheel. |
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To anyone that knows really... Am I correct in my thinking that the LL#8 will need to be replaced on trucks equipped as such, for a smooth running powerplant? I am talking post cackle fix. Seems to me that it really should be done. |
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I'll let you know when I've completed my mods. I've got the LL8E and will do the mods within the week. I'm willing to be owner of cackle/guinnea pig! I think TT says you should, but that brings up questions about re-flash and new injector costs. I'll try it with it first, then proceed further if need be. Doug B. |
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I believe Doug is pulling all the LL injectors he runs across, once the fuel rails are corrected the timing of the LL injectors is not correct and will cause problems, Doug if that is not correct please let us know. |
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Hutch/Doug, Do you know "what" type injector needs to be installed after this mod? My regulator will be here tomorrow from Jegs so I will have all necessary parts to start working on my truck. WILL I DAMAGE THE MOTOR IF I DO THE MOD AND NOT REMOVE THE #8 INJECTOR? I have ask the question several times but no answer to date. |
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You'll need to replace the LL injector with one that is the same code injector as the other 7 injectors in your engine, I don't know if it will cause any more damage to leave it in a few days or not, hopefully Doug will be able to chime in and answer that question this evening. |
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How do you tell if you have the LL#8 injector? I have a 2000 that I bought used. Got all my parts going to do the mods this weekend. Thanks, WW |
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Hutch, Is this a big deal to change out this injector? Is there anything I need to watch out for? Special tools or what not? I might as well get all of that BS while I'm at it..... |
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It's not THAT big a deal, you'll need a 10 ft. lbs (or 120 inch lbs.) torque wrench and new o-rings for the injector. Make sure to pull the glow plug and turn the engine by hand (15/16 socket and rachet on the crankshaft nose) a few times so not to hydraulic that cylinder, there are two little plugs on the injector side of the HP oil rail under the valve cover that I remove so the oil in the rail runs back to the pan and not into the cylinder, still pull the glow plug and exhaust any fuel in the cylinder before using the starter. Also make sure not to twist the new o-rings when installing them on the injector and lube them with motor oil before installing the injector in the head. A long lead injector will have LL on the top of the injector. Does anyone know what a blue dot on the side of a regular split shot injector signifies? |
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My understanding is that a LL injector is simply an injector that has been "blueprinted" i.e. it is as close as possible to the factory spec. I'm sure I read that during the inspection process the injectors that are very close to spec are put on the side to be marked as LL injectors. In other words, there's nothing special about them accept that they were built as designed. The rest of the injectors in the engine could be as good as or worse than the LL injector. If I did in fact read this, then why would the LL injector have to be removed? |
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The long lead injector is different from any stock injector. The split shot happens later than the stock split shot. Hutch showed me the plunger from an injector that had water damage. With this, he explained the concept of the split shot. It is essentially a groove ring cut into the plunger. This ring is higher up the plunger on a long lead injector. Hutch: Can you take a picture of that "watered" injector plunger and make some markings on it referencing the groove for the split shot. Send it to me if you don't have graphic editting software. |
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"Has anyone done a complete 'how to' article on the fuel system fixes with photos and parts lists for both the tank and fuel rail/regulator ends? Or is there someone selling a 'kit' with all the required parts. Just looking for the easiest way forward without having to reinvent the wheel." Just adding my 2 cents here. A numbered list of steps would be real helpfull too. I know I'm asking a lot, but some of us can handle the repairs on our own, but just don't know enough about where the ports on the filters and heads are to attempt it without pictures/lists. I think a list/pictures of a good setup would clear up a lot of questions. Are we close enough to the final version to think about this? Or do we need more tweeking yet? -David |
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Thanks.
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Actually I don't think so. According to the patent app Patent its a larger amount of fuel during pre-shot. The theory was that if its not getting enough fuel to start combustion than they should give it more. Some of the pressure curves Doug took show this and it makes sense. I don't understand why the total pressure over the combustion event would be so much higher in some of his tests though. I had a theory that some (smart) engineer at F*&d realized the fuel would be really hot at the end of the rail and he'd need to have it add fuel to compansate for the lower density but thats definately a reach. I believe the total fuel amount for the LL was the same but I could be wrong. Heres a quote from that patent app: "[0035] The effect of increasing the lead of the non-standard injector 15 relative to the standard injector 14 is to increase the length of stroke of plunger 60 that occurs between the initiation of the fuel injection event and the point at which the circumferential groove 74 is in fluid communication with the spill port 68. Such longer stroke ensures that adequate fuel is injected during the pilot portion of the injection event to initiate combustion." |
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A standard injector plunger measures 45mm from the anular groove to the botton of the plunger stop, a LL plunger measures 40mm to the same points,(or visa versa) the theory behind the LL is Ford/Navistar knew air was a problem in the fuel rail so they were allowing the LL injector to injest a larger load of aerated fuel in the hope that there would be enough fuel along with the air to smooth things out, it does not work, the compression of the air in the injector screws up timing and everything else. |
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We are VERY close (as in "give me a day or two") to releasing a kit complete with a detailed step-by-step install manual with pictures. The kit will include everything you need to remove air from the system (all the tank mods), and everything you need for the under-hood regulator/return install. It is a flexible hose setup, all the hoses are pre-cut, the steel lines (where needed) are all pre-bent, all the unions and fittings that you need to install the kit are included in the box, right down to a pressure gauge for the regulator. I posted a couple weeks ago about getting ready to release the kit, but then someone threw me a curve and gave me a truck to fix with the LL8 installed. Well, after I installed the kit, the truck had more power, was a little quieter, had better mileage, but the audiable cackle and idle knock still remained. It wasn't even just an "idle knock", it increased and decreased with engine speed, and it was as prevelant as ever (since the rest of the engine was a little quieter), it almost sounded like a rod knock. As expected, the contribution test came out "normal", so we stuck the trusty electronic stethescope on it and came to the conclusion that the LL injector was CAUSING the knock and probably the audiable cackle as well. Cylinder 8 was knocking like crazy. I told the customer that to take advantage of the kit, the LL injector should be removed, but its ultimately up to him. I consulted a few more diesel mechanics today, and as was said here, after you install the kit, the LL injector will CAUSE an uneven cylinder balance. Cylinder 8 will have a slightly higher pressure than the other ones (the cause of the cackle in the 1st place). My advice to anyone who is going to either install the kit or have it installed is to remove the LL injector either before you do the mods, or asap after. I can't guarantee that its going to do engine damage to run with it in, but having uneven cyl pressures isn't good in any circumstance. By the way - when you remove the LL injector, you don't need to have the PCM reflashed. The computer doesn't know the difference. Like Hutch said, doing an injector R/R isn't that hard. You just need patience. You can even replace just the plunger inside the injector with a standard one instead of buying a new injector. One thing is for sure - once the LL is in, you can count on Ford not to allow the dealer to take it out. At least not without voiding the warranty. Basically, with the LL installed, you've got a stick with crap on both ends and very little room to grab in the middle. Anyone interested in the kit e-mail me so I can get you on the list for when we release. Thanks. -Ken |
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KenEng1 Thanks for the info on NOT needing to reflash the PCM !! I was kinda sweating that one. Now I just need to find an injector. Would I have to pull the valve cover to find out what series I have or would that info be lised some other way? |
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Ok, so where gan we get an injector or plunger? How much is an injector going to run. Thanks F*$d #$@@$%$
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Over here, injectors cost around $300 a piece. But that's from the IH dealer. I'm going to call a place that actually rebuilds the things in-house and get a price from them. I'll also see if I can get the std plunger as well. |
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Rooster, If you have a 2002 than you have an LL according to Robyn "All 2002, and a large number of the 2001 PSD engines already have the Long Lead Injector #8 installed at the time of engine assembly at the International engine plant in Indianapolis. " Quote from the old thread. I had the question if I had the LL a while back. I don't know about the series. Too much info over too much time! Ray |
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"How do you tell if you have the LL#8 injector?" Taken from Article 00-22-1: "The injector is recognizable by a blue colored solenoid and an 'LL' stamped on the solenoid where the UVC (injector harness) connects." Steve |
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KenEng and Rooster Hang on just a minute about that reflash. The original TSB on the LL8E injector install, said you had to reflash it so it wouldn't show up bad on a cylinder contribution test. Would not the opposite apply? OR since it's reflashed to ignore number #8 would it be OK? Thanks in advance. Doug B. |
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New Cackle Thread Here
Re: New Cackle Thread Here
Re: New Cackle Thread Here
Re: New Cackle Thread Here
Re: New Cackle Thread Here
