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POWERSTROKE RACER
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Sponsor
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Member # 14396
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Reged: 06/16/01
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Posts: 1976
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Loc: Houston TX
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Idle knock after any reg mod
#799780 - 07/19/02 09:04 PM
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I need to hear from folks that are hearing an idle knock after they installed a regulator mod regardless of who's kit or if they did it themselves.Please describe what you are hearing and under what circumstances.Also tell us how your system is plumbed.We know that not every truck is affected by this phenomenon.So what I need to find out is how many miles on trucks that are effected ,if they have done the intank/prepump mods and how much of a difference that particular mod made and also if you have done an HX mod and what difference that made.Examples are Does the truck knock when cold,when hot ,under light throttle ,when coming to a stop and if when coming to a stop does it go away after a few seconds.Also state whether you have check valves in place and if so are they functional(not drilled out).
All information gathered will be used to draw a conclusion this problem as well as finding a solution.We have a few trucks here with this problem and have found a solution,but we would like to try this on a few more trucks.The solution will be publicly posted for the benefit of the forum users.
Thanks
David Lott
Diesel Innovations
PS.If this does not pertain to your truck please refrain from posting or commenting to this topic.
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Mad Max
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Member
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Member # 2946
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Reged: 09/17/99
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Posts: 508
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Loc: Glendale, AZ
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#799808 - 07/19/02 09:51 PM
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David,
My truck has all the mods with no check valves. All my lines are SS AN-4 flex line and they are routed the same way the stock system was. My truck has 95K miles and my truck had an idle knock and cackle before the mods but it had good power and got about 15 MPG.
With all the mods in place my truck is a lot quieter and smother. It does still have an idle knock that is louder when cold and is barely noticeable when the truck is warmed up. I also have some cackle around 1400 to 1500 RPM. The cackle seems to come and go and it is also worse when the engine is cold. I plan on installing the restrictors at the fuel exit on the heads next.
I recently installed a TS chip and it not only helped with the power  it also improve the idle knock and the cackle.
Mad Max
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K9crew
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Member
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Member # 9504
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Reged: 11/22/00
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Posts: 1215
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Loc: HI, USA
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#799821 - 07/19/02 10:06 PM
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David,
I'll try to be as thorough as possible. At approximately 2700 miles I modified the sending unit in the tank (Hutch mod), replaced the hose before the pump, installed the H/X kit, removed the LL injector, installed a Kirban regulator, used 3/8" ss tubing to make a dual circuit fuel system i.e. in at #2 and #7, out at #1 and #8. Once the engine was hot I would occasionally get a slight knock under "light" load i.e. if I was at a stop light facing up hill and gently "squeezed" the accelerator to get going. The engine smoothness from 650rpm to 2500rpm was OUTSTANDING i.e. no cackle/knock of any kind and the idle was smooth and even. Fuel mileage was about the same to maybe 1/2mpg improvement and power improved to the extent that a hill near my house became a 3rd gear hill vs. a 2nd gear one. As for fuel pressure, I found that 72psi to 74psi produced the best results. The factory regulator was shimmed to somewhere around 100psi and the return from the Kirban was teed into the factory return. I had/have no long start problems.
Next I removed the CV's with no change in sound, power or mileage.
In an attempt to eliminate the occasional "hot knock" I changed to a single circuit with 3/8" ss tubing. In at #8 out at #2, in at #1 out at #7. This has resulted in a slightly less smooth engine sound in the 650rpm to 1800rpm but a VERY smooth engine in the 1800rpm to 2500rpm range. I no longer have the occasional knock under light load when hot but the idle isn't quite as smooth or as quiet as the dual circuit system. Fuel mileage and power are about the same i.e. 14mpg with highway driving at 70mph/2200rpm and maybe 30% of that is creeping along in traffic.
I just installed a Banks Monster Exhaust which has made a HUGE difference (improvement) in sound compared to my WBT muffler atrocity. I really LOVE this truck.
Thanks to housted I will be changing the current single circuit system to in at #8 out at #2, in at #7 out at #1. This is an attempt to make a small improvement to the engine idle and the 650rpm to 1800rpm range.
I hope this helps, however, there are many subjective observations here. I will say this though, my truck is 100% better than it was for the first 2700 miles and I would do it all again in a heartbeat!! Other PSD owners that have ridden in my truck have been VERY impressed with the results.
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MarsMan
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Member
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Member # 15079
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Reged: 07/16/01
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Posts: 651
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Loc: Missouri
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#799845 - 07/19/02 10:26 PM
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Hi David. I had all of the modification done at Bob Riley's... the tank mod, pre-pump line and Dahl filter, and a single circuit fuel system with an Aeromotive regulator set at 64lbs. We also did the H/X mod at the same time. The truck is much smoother and quieter than before the mods, but has a slight knoock on occasion after it has been run, (sitting at a stoplight, ideling at cooldown, etc.) but not always. I have not changed out the #8 injector yet, but I am planning on doing so. My truck is an '02 with 15,7XX miles. Let me know if I have left any valuable information off of this post.
John.
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Pat Dolan
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Member
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Member # 16018
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Reged: 08/28/01
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Posts: 1947
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Loc: Saskatoon, SK
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#800298 - 07/20/02 04:40 PM
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David:
I have HX and TT by my own means, and the equivalent of Hutch because of custom fuel supply. I am using restricted air return from old regulator housing, feeding through stock CV's and out the 1/8 NPT test ports by 1/4 rubber to regulator at 68 psi, with an accumulator on the pressure measurement takeoff. LL#8 still in place.
I have a barely audible and intermittent idle knock now (was FIERCE before) and have never had any noticable cackle. I will get a rough idle coming off the road, which will go away after a while at idle (so I assume I still have an injection issue under load). I have at least one injector with a big spill back, since I can feel it as a big pulse in the hose. With 25% increase in fuel economy (now THERE's an oxymoron!) I know things are much better, but with the idle issues still remaining, I know I have a way to go.
Thanks for keeping all of the experience you have had out in the open, and of course conducting your enterprise within the spirit of this public forum. Sure glad to see you delivering (nice) kits to all who have suffered for so long.
Regards - Pat
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Pyromed1
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Member
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Member # 10711
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Reged: 01/19/01
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Posts: 456
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Loc: Henderson, NV U.S.A
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#800312 - 07/20/02 05:05 PM
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David,
I have the fuel line mod w/ clear filter (no air), the tank mod and the reg mod from JNB Systems (ITP). I don't feel the tank and fuel line mods did anything for my truck, if they did it was very subtle.
After I installed the regulator, w/ fuel flowing in stock direction and check valves in place, I had an immediate knock. I was able to calm the knock slightly by bleeding the system one side at a time. The power improved at that point. I still have cackle and knock. The knock is there when I first fire it up in the morning and intermittent the rest of the day. I can make the cackle and knock come at will by running in OD at 1500 rpm/50mph. At that speed in knocks and cackles like crazy.
The other day the weather was cooler and raining (humid) about 80 to 85 degrees. Since the mod it's been in the 110 to 115 degree range w/ 10% humidity. With the cool weather the truck ran noticeably better. It still had a mild knock and cackle but more power.
My truck has 32000 miles and I've put maybe 400 miles on the regulator. My fuel mileage does not seem to have changed.
if you need more info, PLEASE let me know.
Thank you for your efforts.
Corey
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NIBROC
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Member
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Member # 7564
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Reged: 07/16/00
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Posts: 769
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Loc: Republic of Texas,U.S. of A
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#800852 - 07/21/02 12:25 PM
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David,
Mine is quieter, after getting rid of #8 LL, Of course It still has some tics to it.... Still pretty noisey from 1st start to warm up.
Bob
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wavshrdr
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Member
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Member # 22440
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Reged: 06/20/02
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Posts: 132
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#801731 - 07/22/02 12:12 PM
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I have the h/x mod, tank mod, fuel reg mod, pre-pump mods done. Bruce and JNB systems do the work. Originally the the CVs were ou but there was a fuel leak in the area when bypassing them. The truck ran amazingly smooth. But because of the leak, Bruce put the stock CVs back in and at the same time added a pre-pump racor filter. Now I have an idle knock that was eliminated immediately after the first round of mods. I now know how smooth this truck can be and I want it back.
Unfortunately Bruce lives a long way away from me and I can't take the truck back for a while so I would be interested in any answers. FWIW my truck is an '02 Excursion. I wanted to swap out the LL8 injector but it appears my truck has different injectors than most and no one seemed to have a non LL8 injector for my '02 to try and replace it when doing the other mods.
So if you have any thoughts I am all ears so to speak. For those of you who haven't done some of these mods you can't believe the difference it can make. It is amazing how smooth these trucks can be!
As for the individual effectiveness of each mod its tough to say as I did them in a group. But the truck was incredibly smooth and is still very smooth even with the idle knock but I really wish it was gone now. Could there be some trapped air that was introduced by the new filter or did putting the check valves back in create the problem?
Thanks,
-Tim
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Wombat
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Member
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Member # 5368
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Reged: 02/13/00
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Posts: 1627
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Loc: Goose Creek, SC, USA
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#801905 - 07/22/02 03:06 PM
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Hey David. I have some sort of knock that won't go away. I have done the following mods:
- pre-pump with Racor primary filter
- tank sending unit
- HX with ITP-style design
- Aeromotive Regulator with -4 hoses with braided steel shell
Other notes:
- No LL injector in #8 (never was one)
- Stock flow valves are in place
- About 62,900 total miles, 2000 since regulator was installed
- Pre-pump and tank sending unit mods made the most improvement
The truck knocks pretty consistently and it starts knocking about 15-20 seconds after start up. I let it set for a whole week while I was on honeymoon/vacation and when I started it up, it was awesome for about 20 miles, then it started knocking again. Also, the gear shift shakes from side to side when it's idling. It almost sounds like I have a dead cylinder but when I started it up after vacation and on some other rare occasions, it runs like a champ. I'd trade it in on a nice Cessna or Piper since the maintenance requirements are about the same.
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Rickie
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Member
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Member # 15932
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Reged: 08/24/01
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Posts: 731
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Loc: Montana
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#801988 - 07/22/02 04:54 PM
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David,
After my mods, my truck knocked really bad during my last towing trip this weekend.  I have self-installed the following:
Regulator with Aeroquip hoses & fittings, HX Mod, also with Aeroquip, Pre-pump, In-tank mods, and stock CV's with LL8 still in place.
I have the idle knock during both cold and hot idle. Also, a rythmic tapping became noticeable this weekend while running at about 2,000 rpm, while solo. I could have sworn that I heard something like cackle at about 1700 rpm. 
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Sailnby
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Member
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Member # 8911
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Reged: 10/17/00
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Posts: 247
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Loc: Wichita, KS, USA
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#801992 - 07/22/02 05:03 PM
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David,
I've performed the Hutch and TT mods myself. The heads are still fed through the CV's, and the Aeromotive regulator is set to 60 psi. I shimmed the factory regulator to about 85 psi and T'ed into the line to make use of the bleed down feature. I have not done the HX mod, but I do have the parts. I have never had the LL8 injector and run a PPIII.
The engine is quiet and smooth at cold idle. Operations at speed at any engine temperature are very quiet. However, when slowing to a stop with a warm engine, it is very likely to knock. The knock occurs about 90% of the time, but there is no defined driving cycle which will cause the knock. The knock will last from 5 to 15 seconds and then fades away. The knock will always end within 1/2 second of applying the throttle when accelerating from a stop.
Fuel pressure above 60 psi makes the knock louder. Below 60 psi doen not seem to have any effect. Fresh Rotella T did not resolve the issue, nor did adding the International antifoaming agent. The truck currently has 19,200 miles.
Dennis
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NIBROC
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Member
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Member # 7564
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Reged: 07/16/00
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Posts: 769
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Loc: Republic of Texas,U.S. of A
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#802017 - 07/22/02 05:24 PM
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I keep reading about trucks that sound great when cold, then start Knocking after warm up....Mine is just the opposite.... Sounds like a thrashing machine on cold start, and always has since new, and then quietens down after engine reaches normal operating range. It is even worse in cold weather.....Guess I should count my blessings that I don't live in a cold climate.
Is mine the only one like this or are there others. 
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Larry M
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Moderator
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Member # 14468
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Reged: 06/19/01
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Posts: 5146
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Loc: Northern Va
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#802038 - 07/22/02 05:43 PM
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NIBROC,
Nope, mine is exactly like yours, except I'm not sure about the warm vs. cold weather, but with ambients in the 30's to low 50's last spring mine was consistently 3 to 4 db (broadband as meanured with instrumentation) louder when the engine was cold compared to when it was warmed up. I didn't notice any particular unique cold/warm noises, just general loudness - these things are LOUD when cold 
Larry
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Firedogbme
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Member
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Member # 20171
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Reged: 03/03/02
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Posts: 150
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Loc: Utah, USA
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#802471 - 07/22/02 11:36 PM
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Tim's EX
Just to clarify, I put the CV's back in to address a MPG issue. I've done a few of the "CV Removal" mods and a few have told me that their milage went to hell.
When Tim stopped in on his way to California, I did the Regulator mod and the Fuel Feed Line/CV removal mod with the "Single Circuit" option. I also installed an exhaust from turbo back and quite a few other things. The truck ran great, but we had a fuel leak, and he reported MPG in the 14-15 range, down from 18.
On his way back, he stopped in again and I worked on the fuel leak. It turned out to be in the passenger side rear fitting (the SOB one!). With the poor MPG, I decided to reinstall the CV's as I thought (and still do) that removing the CV's over-fuels the engine. Obviously, reinstalling the CV's meant going back to the "Dual Circuit" option, and I think that is where the problem lies.
With the Single Circuit, the truck ran awesome. After changing to the Dual Circuit, we immediately had the idle knock. I think the thing to do is re-configure the fuel feed back to the Single Circuit.
BTW, Tim told me that reinstalling the CV's didn't help the MPG much, so that may not be an issue.
Thanks,
Bruce Bergdahl
JNB Systems
P.S. Tim, I got your messages, I'll give you a call tomorrow
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tomshep
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Member
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Member # 17205
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Reged: 10/28/01
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Posts: 442
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Loc: Republic of Texas
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#802572 - 07/23/02 01:25 AM
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David,
02 model had the ll#8 removed about 2500 miles. I picked up a slight idle knock. Never had cackle as far as I can determine.
I then did the racor filter and tank mods. The truck became much quieter. The idle knock also went down.
I then did the regulator kit and h/x kit (early kits) from you. This helped greatly with power. I now have what I call a "phantom" idle knock that is very slight and does not present itself in a pattern I have been able to detect.
As far as performance, this truck is awesome. I pull a 10,000# enclosed trailer and I pre-mod got 8.5 and just got 11.5 mpg on a trip. I could pass other cars with ease while accelerating. I also added a Banks 4" exhaust just before that trip which I am sure helped as well.
If you have something you want me to try, get in touch.
Tom
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Scottbagwell
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Member
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Member # 20130
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Reged: 03/01/02
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Posts: 84
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Loc: Arlington,TX
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#802993 - 07/23/02 01:34 PM
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David, my truck is very quiet at low elevations but I just returned from colorado and at higher elevations, above 6000 ft., I had a bad idle knock when slowing to a stop. Once the egts came down to 300 deg. it usually quieted down. Overall cackle and knock were much more pronounced at high altitude. once i got back to texas, all was quiet again.
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Maroon Harpoon
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Member
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Member # 12062
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Reged: 03/18/01
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Posts: 322
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Loc: Centennial, CO
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#803059 - 07/23/02 02:56 PM
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David:
I have done the pre-pump and in-tank mods which made my truck much more quiet. I then installed the fuel regulator, plumbed from #1 and #8 to the regulator and then directly into the return (no "T" into the old regulator), set my pressure at 65 lbs. I did not change the check valves. I then had an idle knock on the #3 cylinder, took off the regulator and took the truck to Ford, who then put in a new (rebuilt) injector in #3. The truck was then quiet, smooth and powerful...loved it! I then reinstalled the regulator plumbed as above.
Approximately a month later my truck was idling while I was standing outside it and all of a sudden it started knocking! It now has an intermitent knock at idle which becomes more steady just above idle and then stays throughout the rpm range. I have not listened to find the offending hole as I was getting ready for vacation, from which we just returned.
The engine is more quiet at cold start-up, then knocks intermittently as it warms up. As it comes off idle the knock becomes steady and once the knock starts it is constant until the engine idles down at which time the knock almost goes away but is then intermittent.
Oh! I have not changed out the LL#8 injector. Prior to the knock I could hear the #8 do its thing and I could hear what I think is the normal injector noise, the light 'tick-tick-tick'. Now I hear all that with the stoopid *knock-knock* in the back ground. My wife apparently got tired of hearing me complain about the noise while we were on vacation...I said "this thing is great, but for the noise!". She said "STOP bitching!". I did.
I have not done the HX mod, I did raise the pressure to 72 lbs. to see if that would help the knock. It did not and it is at 72 now (and my pressure guage died! Too many vibrations over too long a period!).
The miles on my truck are 26,000 and it is a 2000 (as the sig would suggest...)
Hope this helps.
MH
Tim
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ATVduner
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Member
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Member # 21024
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Reged: 04/10/02
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Posts: 76
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Loc: Las Vegas, NV
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Re: Idle knock after any reg mod
#803069 - 07/23/02 03:06 PM
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With all the mods done, I usualy hear a loud knock when the engine is cold. Once it is warm it goes away. I also hear it occasionally when coming to a stop. It goes away 2-3 seconds later. the knock (when stopping) only happens 25-30% of the time. It seems to be very sporadic, and I haven't found a way to either keep it from happening or make it happen consistently. The truck has almost 11k miles on it now.
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