| Pages: 1 | ||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
I have been studying and researching the “cackle” issue. I have gotten a great deal of information from this board and it’s members. I have to say the research that texastowncar has done is very interesting and convincing. He has provided facts and data through testing and not just an opinion. There are a couple of questions that have came from looking at his information. First, in the documented info from the texastowncar website it shows 6 different test trucks (PSD) plus his own truck. All six of these came to him with the cackle and some had been in the shop at Ford dealerships numerous times with no resolve. Heck, a couple of these were referred to texastowncar by the dealer. After studying these trucks all six showed high Cylinder Pressures (CP’s) in #6 and especially in #8. It also seems there is possible overfueling or inadequate combustion at #6 and the consensus was there was fuel starvation at #8. This was a common theme in the six tested along with his own truck. The fuel pressures in the rail were inconsistent and varied at times. Without going through all the testing and results, the bottom line seemed to be that he resolved the problem (cackle) in all of these by installing a regulated fuel return system and he also did the pre pump and tank mods. Looking at all of the trucks in his studies with this problem, why could one not accurately assume that all trucks will have the same problem sooner or later. Some of these were losing injectors at 20-30,000 miles and some as high as 100,000 miles. It would not make sense to me to think that some might do it and some might not do it. They are mass produced and they are all the same so how can one do it and another not do it. I know there can be variations in each individual truck like gas mileage, driveability, etc., but this is a basic fundamental design flaw in question regarding the fuel delivery system. If we can agree on that then we can assume that sooner or later your 7.3 and my 7.3 will have the same problem. This means bad injectors, loss of RWHP, decline in fuel mileage and possibly eventually more extensive damages to the engine from the fuel starvation in #8 and high cylinder pressures. The future looks gloomy. One would think you should definitely do the pre pump and tank mods and the regulated fuel return mods. If it has corrected every truck that he did these mods to then that would tell me it should correct mine too. Now I go and do these mods and then Ford voids my warranty on my engine. If I wait the 100,000 miles and then do these mods when my warranty has expired, how much damage has already occurred because I did not do this in the early stages of my engine life? This becomes a hard question to answer. I am thinking at this point the 100,000 mile warranty is not worth the risk of forgoing these mods right now. I am trying to say that doing these mods to my truck now seems to be far more beneficial than having a 100,000 mile warranty. I am not looking for just 100,000 miles. I want 2-300,000 miles and these mods seem to give you a better chance at seeing that kind of mileage at the risk of losing your warranty in the short term. Just read the article on the head to head comparison of two F350’s that drive the same mileage and almost the same route each week. They had the same mileage when the test started. One truck had the pre pump and tank mods along with the regulated fuel return system and the other was left stock. I will not list each individual result but you need to read it. The results are staggering to say the least!! They actually had to put a stop to the testing and perform the mods to the stock truck and replace injectors due to fear of destroying the engine while the truck that was modified had no problems! We drive our trucks everyday and do not have the ability to monitor our trucks like they were doing in order to see what is happening inside our engines. This could be a case where what you do not know could be hurting you. The sad thing is that Ford does not seem to be doing this kind of research and possibly are thinking if they can you to the 100,000 mile mark and get rid of you then it is your problem from there. Ford should really take a look at the research texastowncar is doing but I guess that would just bring attention to the problem and cost them a lot of money. That brings me back to these questions: 1.Can we agree there is design flaw in our engines that could be causing damage to our engines and their lifespan? 2.Can we agree the results that texastowncar has gotten are inevitable for all of us? 3.Can we agree that the pre pump and tank mods along with the regulated fuel return system are the answer to resolve this? 4.Do you take the chance on voiding your warranty for the short term by doing these mods in order to ensure better performance and longevity? Give me your opinions on this and how you feel about it. 
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
IMO In reply to: YES In reply to: YES, Even the infamous Kim Lux has stated numerous times that ALL PSD's with split shot injectors will suffer cackle at some point in it's lifetime. In reply to: If there is not already injector damage, YES. These mods will help keep them from happening at some point down the road, IMO In reply to: That's been the question and "main bi*ch" from the get go, my reasoning is if Ford cannot or will not repair the problem WHAT GOOD IS THE WARRANTY? Once you are to 100K Ford is done with us and we are stuck with a vehicle that needs VERY costly injector replacement, not to mention the other issues the torsional stress, vibration that occur when the engine is "cackling", this can cause torque converter, transmission and clutch issues to say the least, never mind the additional stress that is placed on the cylinder head, cylinder bore walls, piston, rings, rods ETC. every time #6 or #8 fire too early. IMO an ounce of prevention is worth 1,000 lbs. of Ford's "cure" or warranty. I hope you have your flame suit on as there are SEVERAL "non believers" out there who do not think "cackle" is real or "MY truck does not have it", but they will, just wait and see.  Well, I guess I better put my flame suit on as well, huh? 
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Hutchinaugusta, Thanks first for your reply and your pics on the tank mods. You bring up some good points in your reply that I agree with. I am not trying to offend or insult anyone that would require flaming. I am merely asking how you can argue with the results of the tests performed..i.e. cylinder pressure variances, fuel pressure variances, the failed injectors so early on and the numerous warranty claims to Ford for fuel related problems. There is a reason these things happen and I have not found anyone else that is providing explanations with data to support them. Sorry in advance if anyone is upset by this post. That is not the intention. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
I have done all of the fuels mods, or should I say that Bob Riley did all of my mods.  The only thing that I haven't done is to replace the #8 injector with a non LL type.
I would appreciate your feedback and I thank you for all of your countless hours of trials and tribulations. John. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Hutch, we don't have to waite till after 100k to be left out in the cold. I was already their at 20k. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
In reply to: I have only done the "Hutch" the pre pump and tank mods. The difference they have made is unbelievable. Im not sure how much I would gain with the regulated fuel return system but I am convienced these two solutions are the answer to resolve this problem of cackle. Jim |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Ditto what Mark (Hutch) said...... I made the decision to do the fuel mods on my brand new truck with the odometer reading around 2200 miles....... That was my decision....and I'm sticking to it... Chris K. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
In reply to: That question has been asked several times and I really am not positive about the answer, the best answer would be if we could see some CP's from a truck that has the LL in #8 and ALL the mod's and return system done, (Doug, you listening?) if the CP's are not far out of line then leave the LL in, if they are elevated with the LL then by all means replace it. I have not talked to Doug in quite some time but his research is where the answer to your question would be. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
jat99, another main contributing factor is the quality control of the injectors. Alot of these engines are coming out of the factory with injectors that are malfunctioning from day one or soon thereafter. This is a known fact!!!!! Known by Ford and Navisar(and Catapillar). No one wants to pay. At this point in time Ford cannot afford to pay to repair them all. I am of the opinion that over 50% of the powerstrokes are not running correctly, I hear a few that sound real good. Most people don't even know that their truck is running like crap. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
In reply to: I'm convinced that's an understatement.  I've talked to so many guys on the road about cackle and the fuel systems and they don't have any idea of what I'm talking about...and couldn't care less.These fuel system changes made a huge difference on my truck. I've had several injector failures because of the air in the system. I decided almost year ago to forget about the 100,000 warranty and go ahead and change the system. I had a bit of a frustrating experience this afternoon. I went back to the town where I bought my truck 5 years ago and while I was there I decided to go talk to their diesel tech. He's a pretty sharp tech and I like him so I thought I would pass on what Hutch and Doug found in the past year. I started out telling him about all of the problems that Hutch found in the fuel system. He politely listened to me but I could tell even while I was talking that he didn't agree with what I was saying. He then told me that the way the system is designed, that the air would never be a problem in the fuel rail. That's what the people "in the know" at Ford had told him and other techs. I told him about the high cylinder pressures that Doug had measured, but I walked away feeling like I failed in convincing him. I was wishing that Hutch and Doug were there to explain it all better than I could. I may print out some of the information on Doug's site and Hutch's photos to show him. I think the techs need to see this kind of information so they can sort out what Ford is feeding them concerning the cackle issue. Edited by JimF (01/22/03 07:12 PM) |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
The issue of the injectors posted by worm is a valid point. I have spoken with many PSD owners that have had injectors replaced at low mileage also. I also talked with a Ford mechanic that stated he was shocked at the number of injector replacements he alone has done. The data gathered by many on the air in the fuel lines shows that it will only compound the problem with the injectors. Dont get me wrong, I love my SuperDuty and cannot imagine driving anything else. I am just trying to make sure it loves me too
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Worm you are so right Ford Knows Darn well whats going on and what has been going on But Since it is a Roll of the dice on the Injectors From the fact being Bad And they(Nav and Ford)have been in legal wranglings with Cat over this quality issue for a LONG time With These Junk injectors IMHO they have just kept sweeping it under the rug and buying back Bad cacklers from people that wouldnt take there crap And went the DSB route.This May be a Contibuting Factor in why they didnt do a Revamp on this fuel system because of there declining financial state and wanting to Drag Cat into the whole mess too to absorb the shock of fixing all These tks and such..... Just one of my theories of it all and why Its gone on for so long. And You also make a Valid point of Some Not even realizing there tk is missfiring and Cackling and Not up to its potential since Very Few PSD'S run alike or correctly as in smooth and even with NO cackle or Knocking I have heard and driven a heck of alot of them and I would say more than half Had a Knock or the Cackle rattle and missfiring some were real Bad others Not as Noticeable with little powerloss (I will surely get Blasted for this Fire Away!)IMHO It was a Pass the buck thing at First, then It was a Poorley Engineerd Flop of a Fix The LL-8 Inj,It just snoballed from there Now the 7.3 Engine is For the most part Out of Production For Fords concern except for the E-series till they shoehorn the 6.0 in And Cat isnt supplieing the Injectors in quanity now and isnt going to recall everybodys injectors over a quality issue Thats a complete Joke even to consider That!!Everyone should make there own decision on any mods they make as far as warranty is concerned But Keep in Mind that Ford cant fix it and or will denie the problem and on and on They all do that sh*& so why worrie about the warranty They will tell you a Bull line anywaze .Also you CANNOT buy new HEVI'S from Ford or Navistar I researched this Deeply with The local IH dealer and Probley due to there litigation with each other they will only supply Injectors to Nav's engine plant contract and thats It.Also Any Injector you ever get from Ford is REBUILT and not new period.This whole Problem is total garbage and Really lands on Fords Plate and is Inexcuseable to have Kept on for this long.... Ford definately has marketed a Tk with a Known Engine defect for along time for whatever reason and Left the customer stuck to rectifie it if they wanted there tk right It's a Real shame overall on its affects on the Engines performance and The customers that were/still are dissapointed in there tks performance from this problem it should never have been. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Grounder, and everyone else who posted about the reality of crackel you are 1000 percent right. Ford didnt care then and there not going to care now, for them its going to be water under the bridge as more and more psd get over the 100,000 mile mark and now that the motor is out of production theres less to worry about. Weave been on our own frm day one with this and we contiue to be, as you lock at my sig below you'll see ive try to do everything I can to elliminte crackel and keep my injectors working as beat I can. Grounder forget the flames sooner or later everyone will see your right 
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
In reply to: Give me a day or two and I will respond either here or via PM to avoid the hassle since I may have differing view from most for your consideration. Larry |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
I think a large part of the problem too, is so many PSD owners came over from the gasser world. They hear the knock and cackle and just assume it's a normal noisy diesel engine sound. Even with the knock and cackle these trucks are still powerful enuogh to impress most people so they don't care. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Kickin, amen brother! I bought an X a few months back, and as a brand new diesel owner I woudn't know cackle if it bit me in the ankle. I have absolutely no frame of reference to tell what a good running PSD sounds like vs. a poorly running one with cackle. I know some folks have posted sounds of cackle, but I'm afraid that for me, I'll have to wait until I'm with a bunch of PSD owners who can use their different trucks to illustrate the differences in sound. I bought the Ford extended warranty for the whole X because I don't have time - nor the back muscles anymore  to work on much myself. I don't want to void that expensive purchase by putting in the mods.A bit of a catch 22, eh? - Gary |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Larry, "let it all hangout"!!!! |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
I agree Bill Even with these things missing and Knocking A novice owner wouldnt even know because They still have alot of power And I think that Ford preyed on this to be "The Norm" for this engines Normal Characteristics when Most know it isnt even close to being normal and how Bad the Power and operation is really crippled |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Very well put Grounder. I took my pig in the other day for cackle only to have the tech tell me it wouldn't hurt anything. The sound is normal. Considering Fords current financial shape it boggles the mind to think they would abandon us and not care. My actions will be shown when I abandon them and don't buy another Ford product. Larry |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
In reply to: Jim, Print off these pictures CLICK HERE and show the "tech" that air does get into the rails and it is a big problem. It is painfully obvious this tech and "some" members here have no idea of how a diesel fuel system works and the havoc entrained air or free air/gas plays with the injection cycle and lifespan of EXTREMLEY TIGHT tollerence parts in the fuel system. Yes, that crap foam (fuel)leaving the heads in the photos was real and was what my truck had been running on. No matter what anyone else says or what their truck or "VAN" is doing does not matter one ioda, this is what MY TRUCK had and from what I gather more have seen improvement that have not, if some of the poeple did not see improvement is really not relevant, what is relevant is the FACT that it is just a matter of time before they would have had the problem, the issue of air entering the fuel is REAL and a really big problem in diesels and it needs to be addressed. Yes, the factory fuel filter will pass air through to the rails. No, the factory bleed will not remove entrained air from the fuel and could not handle the amount of air my truck was injesting. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
I agree about not knowing what a cackle was. This is my first diesel. I didn't know until the truck had almost 40k on her. I am sure I have several(or all) damaged injectors due to the air leakage. My pump suction had gotten to the point it would leak fuel OUT when the tank was full. Blissfull ignorance was mine till then. I gave up on the warranty. We are on our own with this. Except for an occasional idle knock, mine sounds great now. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
In reply to: Hell yes that air causes damage. I'll bet it does the same thing as cavitation in the coolind system! |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Hey I figured out how to do the quote thing Now back to the subject, look at how the 6.9 or 7.3 IDI or even the 5.9 Cummins run when you have a loose injector fitting that's sucking air. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
I am not real familiar with what causes Cackle but I can tell you mine had it real bad.....it is at the dealer now getting a new #6, #7 and #8 injectors if that tells you anything. Tech said 6 was bad 7 was causing fuel knock and the 8 if it is not an LL it will be. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
JimF, I hope you left the tech guys the web address for Doug's site. He will get curious about the conversation with you and go off and explore this on his own, usually. That's what I did here in Memphis at a shop with good results. Chris K. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
He did ask me what website I had been going to and I told him this one. He had seen other websites and was even familiar with Mark Kalvosky on them. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
In reply to: Gary, the comparison is easy. Go find somebody with a '95-'97 PSD. Go for a ride, drive it. Listen to how the engine sounds at the magical 1500-2000 rpm range. You won't hear any funny noises, just the sweet sound of the engine pulling through the rpm band. Then go jump in yours right after. Go for a ride.....you'll know then. |
||||||||||
| Pages: 1 | ||||||||||
Cackle observation-Give Feedback
