| Pages: 1 | ||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
After carefull thought I came to the conclusion that NOT all Powerstrokes Cackle.. Some do, some don't, others sometimes, some light and some heavy.. This tells me that there may be something else going on other than a design issue.. If it were a design issue, they ALL would do it. If it were a design issue, then why some times and not at others.. Has anyone cured it? If so, what was done. The TSB on this problem says that after the "fix", it may get louder. Texastown car appears to have solved some with one fix, and others with another fix. Hutch may know what "deffinatley works and what does not". Some claim to have fixed it with a "pre-pump" mod, others with a tank mod and still others with a modification of the oil pressure system, tieing the heads together with a hose. While others may be using the fuel feed from back to front...I would like to know who has done what and what worked..If it came back after the cure was performed.. Could it be an oil pressure issue? Since oil pressure is higher when cold compared to warm.. It is the oil pressure that forces the plunger on the injectors to work..Air in fuel? Could be a side note.. Since after filling and sloshing the tank, air is bound to be in the fuel, however, this would mean it would do it all the time.. Even on a cold engine..Air will still enter the fuel system after all the mods were done, even if one can't see the air. Please let me know what any of you have found out.. This is going to be fun.... 
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
DB It is my understanding the HX mod was not intended to be a cure for cackle. It was to allow the computer to "see" the pressure of BOTH HP Oil rails, instead of just one and balance the pressure between the rails. This results in less HP Oil Pressure fluctuation at all engine speeds. Cackle seems to be the high cylinder pressure in number 8 cylinder. The cause is the improper firing of the injector (skipping the preshot and firing the main fuel charge to soon). The problem is we have yet to nail down why one PSD does it and another does not. Why one cackles off the dealers lot and others it takes several thousand miles. If we could do that we then could look at an engine and tell if it was ever going to be a cackler or not and take steps to stop it from happening. One of the biggest problems is the dealers have convinced many there is no problem, to many others 'it is a diesel, they make noise'. (I would be in the last group if mine had made the noise from the beginning and if it didn't stop cackling and idle knocking every once in awhile.) So many have cackle and are living in ingorant bless (no insult to anyone is meant by that remark) Bruce |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
You’re a glutton for punishment.... First off let’s define what everyone here describes as cackle. It’s the god awful noise heard on most PSD’s when running a mild load between 1000 and 2000 RPM. It gets worse at times and gets better at times. If I take my truck to the same hill and drive it at the same speed it will cackle every time & drive me crazy every time with the noise. If I take that same hill with a load (trailer) and/or faster (higher RPM) it will not cackle. So IMO it is repeatable. FYI - Idle knock is not Cackle by definition on this site The problem I see here on “TheStop” is that back in May of 2002 everyone got all excited that some one (many ones) “solved” the cackle issue. Thread after Thread after Thread… they “solved” the cackle issue. Hence the tank mod, prep-pump mod and the return mods were all born this way with many people jumping on the band wagon before the consequences were actually known. All the mods have evolved and are continuing to evolve to this day. This is expected, it’s not an exact science but garage mechanics. Some people will not even discuss the mods or their opinions anymore, some are redesigning and testing new ideas regularly and I would expect will be for some time to come. The biggest problem is that for every solution (mod) installed it comes with more problems, with more ideas for solutions to those problems and then still more problems. This just keeps going and going. If you follow this issue much, everyone is chasing Pat’s air around and I don’t think they will ever get rid of it completely unless you invent a super duper aerator device for diesel fuel, one that sucks every last oxygen molecule out of the fuel (I think that’s impossible). Bottom line is you need to weigh what your truck sounds like against the hassle of buying and installing the mods against the hassle of any possible lost warranty and more importantly against your sanity. I’m still testing my truck for the tank mod stuff. I personally am not convinced in any way, shape or form that the fuel mods on the engines fuel system should be done yet. Too many problems still being discovered with the present mods, too many new secret ideas floating around. All of these mods are on the cutting edge….. so to speak, and they are all still in their infancy of design and modification. The only reason I decided to try the tank mod and pre-pump mod is that it is a relatively simple concept. Again, you’re a glutton for punishment. John 
On Edit: I Got it Completely Wrong ...... I'm a Glutton for Punishment...... From Hutch that is! Edited by Elk_chaser (03/15/03 12:34 AM) |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: To start a good investigation you should first define exactally what chackle is. I've had my truck for 2 + years now and I'm not sure what it is. I think I may know but it might not be what others say it is. I would get a consences as to what it is for sure. I had a noisey engine with noise at idle and under slight load at 1500-1800 RPM. Now it is all but gone and just normal diesel engine noises made when a load is applied. Hutch tank and pre pump mod was all I did and it was corrected. Did I cure cackle? Haven't a clue, but I'm not looking for a cure for a noisey engine anymore. Jim |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
I just drive the thing....J/K...I have both at times niether at others. My idle knock sounds more like running out of fuel than anything else its a pang pang pang rather than a nock nock nock. Next light its gone. It appears to be on the passenger side. I have done all the fuel tank mods and have a Dahl 100 prepump filter. Did not seem to change much. I have a lot of ticking up top right in front of the driver and on some occasions have what I call a ping as if you were lugging a gas engine sound kindof a preignition sound on acceleration especially when in overdrive down around 1200 RPM and accelerating out. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: I don't have ANY "new" problems at all. Get the air out of the fuel supply, fix the injectors the aerated fuel damaged or are leaking pressure, put the by pass on if you want and you're done. Quote: Consequences? What consequences? Giving your injectors a good fuel supply is not a "bad thing". I did not hear of a single modded truck gelling this winter, every one who posted about gelling was using the stock fuel tank system. Mods evolving? What's changed? Garage science in your book is "old school" fuel supply and return set up in my book. In case you don't realize it the by pass set-up duplicates the pre 99 Powerstroke return fuel system to a "t". Quote: What is there NEW to discuss? Go back and read all about it, it's really old news here, yes LOTS of guys who "cured" their trucks are still running fine and don't even feel the need to visit the site any more. How many time have you had your valve covers off? Or injectors have you pulled out? How many injectors you taken apart looking for issues and experimenting with different things? You can sit there at your computer and "second guess" everything we discussed and found in the past, you can discount and discredit eveything if you want, but till you get out there and actually do something you have nothing NEW to add to the discussion. Quote: What problems? Quote: Bottom line is Ford's fuel system is feeding your engine crap fuel, the injectors may well pass Ford's contribution test but that does not mean they are firing at the proper time or mean the injectors are good. The damage this aerated fuel will cause will cost you/me some serious money to repair once we are satisfied Ford warranty procedures are to do nothing but say "they all do that" and "there's nothing wrong" and I can't do anything. The fact is what good is the warranty if they will not or cannot fix the problem? The longer you feed the injectors aerated, agitated fuel the more damage you are causing to all the injectors and the higher the cost will be to repair, since Ford has shown they won't do anything warranty wise, guess who gets to foot the bill, especiallt at 101K miles and Ford is "legally" done with the truck. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: Hey, Hutch is back! How you doing Hutch I don't think I was referring to you, we all know your truck is perfect in every way. But as long as you brought up the subject OK. Have you been reading the threads about pre-pump filters and the fact that they may be creating more air at the filters. I'm sure you'll have a entertaining response for that........ Quote: I don't have the time to prove you wrong on this one Hutch, frankly it's not worth my time. But you are wrong none the less, there were some posts from guys with mods that gelled. Quote: You said it yourself... You didn't do the testing as if you were in a lab (scientific) you did it in your garage (garage mechanics). Quote: Oh My God, I have read all the threads that go in circles with no real conclusion, someone brings up a possible problem with the mods and they are shut down hard, and you know it. Quote: Please don't insult my abilites, you have no clue what I do for a living and no idea what I do for fun, I don't discredit anyone on this site and you should not do so either. By the way those with new things to add to the discussion are keeping it to themselves. Quote: Latest one I heard was overheating the fuel in the tank cause the high flow pumps are returning too much fuel through the return mods. But that was in a private conversation. Quote: Bottom Line..... It's everyones personal choice and right to make their own mind up. I don't think all the kinks have been worked out in the return mods, for instance why would Bob Riley be selling and installing these mods on a personal basis instead of making a killing selling them to everyone on his web site. Some people have integrity and some don't. What engineer died and made you the Power Stroking king of the mods. I don't get your attitude Hutch, you act like I'm attacking you personally everytime I post on this subject, are you loosing money every time I put a dought in someones mind and they decide not to do the mods, are you loosing royalties or what. IMO You sure blew it if your not getting something for your ideas. You could have been rich. I have disagreed with you in the past just for the fun of it. Cause your easily excitable. But I think i have made it perfectly clear that I do disagree with some of your theories. Before you give me a bucket of dung for the "theories" look it up, that is exactly what they are, anything unprooven is a theory and not a fact. You have a great evening, It was a pleasure to discuss theories and issues with you again....... Not  Keep that sense of humor! Have you read my sig lately? I'm on the Hutch Band Wagon Now so treat me like a fellow Hutch Modder. OK John I'm running for cover now! 
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
hutchinaugusta....All diesels are running on the same type of fuel.. Other manufacturers arent having this problem.. Like I said,"All Ford PowerStrokes Made from 98.5 to 2003 do not do it.. Some do. Some worse than others and others only sometimes.. Some say it does not do it until in the 1200 to 2300 rpm range.. Let me get this straight so we are all on the same page.. I have heard my 2002 at idle make a "panging intermittent noise.. Not the Knock ie hollow wood sounding knock.. But as if a "ball peen hammer" were hitting the side of the block...This as far as I know is the sound of "Cackle"..It has not done it very often, nevertheless, it has done it..From above idle, there is a myriad of noises. From the knock to the injectors clicking, to a ping Pre-ignition noise when cold.. But not the sound I have heard so rarely..The 95,96,and 97s don't do it... At least on my others I have not heard it.. Funny how a 2002 can be so much quieter, yet so much noisier...The thing I want to look for is "WHAT CHANGES were made in the 98.5 to 2002 PSDs... Intercooler, intake system, injectors, and.....????? What Else.. Something was changed that has contributed to this...I don't believe it is the fuel system since the earlier models have the same firing order..I still find it hard to believe injectors...Either the cylander fires or it does not,,,manifastating as a miss or uneven idle and drivability.. Intake system... maybe???? I don't know yet.. Intercooler???This would make a denser air mixture.. Possible??? Barometric pressure is also changed..A gas engine will ping under certain conditions.. Heat will do it, barometric pressure, increase in cylander pressure, low octane fuel, timing advanced too far.. I wonder if this line of thinking could be on the right track??? We know on a gas engine ping or pre-ignition can be eliminated several ways.. One is to reduce cylander pressure, hence low compression engines.. Another way is to be sure the engine in not running too hot via thermostat, too lean a fuel mixture. Also, timing is not advanced too far.. So, can't we apply the same principles to the Pwrstrke.?? They are both combustion engines. They are both 4 cycles etc.. The Cackle appears to happen only when engine is warm... So, if it does not do it cold, what has changed?? Barometric pressure? Yes since the EBPV opens.. Heat? Yes, since the engine is now warmed. Thermostat?...Oil Pressure... When warm the oil pressure drops since cold oil more resitant to flow than warm.. Could this reduction in oil pressure cause the injection system to not atomize the fuel as efficiently as when cold, hence raising the fuel pressure may be an alternative to raising oil pressure.. There must be an answer and I will continue looking.. May not ever find it, but I want to try... Hey hutch... Do you think all the other mods could be a patch to the problem instead of the definitive fix??? |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
The bad thing about the innernet is you cannot hear the "tone" in someones post. I did not reply with any bad blood, I just answered and asked questions. Yes, I've been reading the posts about filters, do you know I originally set my truck up without a "pre filter" and removed the Racor and ran without a pre filter till I installed the Vor max last week? I belive in keeping the restriction as low as possible on the suction side, or K.I.S.S. Quote: Why is that? Have they learned "all they need to know" and now want to be "super secret" about discoveries? Like the CV's restricting HP? Quote: This is where you are wrong, I never advised or believe the "high flow" fuel pumps are good for the Powerstroke application, PERIOD. Read Beddins posts, his Aeromotive pump produces so much volume the fuel does not stay in the heads long enough to gather any heat, his fuel leaves the heads 4 or 5 degrees above ambient temp. Quote: Once bit twice shy. You said yourself you've instigated confrontations for fun because "I'm excitable". IMO that's bad, really bad , don't they call someone who does that a "troll"? Quote: Yes, background info would help or hurt your credibility, what do you do for a living and for fun, besides being a troll that is  Quote:. My attitude, what about your attitude? Why is it OK for you to speak your views and not OK for me to speak mine? Quote: Fact, air in a diesel fuel system is not suppose to be there and will cause issues with injection and wear issues with the components within the fuel system. Fact, air in a split shot injector will cause the timing to advance on the main shot which is refered to as cackle. Fact, ANY of the 8 cylinders can and will cackle. Fact, you are correct I did "miss the boat" on making money on what I found in the fuel supply system, I openly discussed what I found so the MEMBERS could fix their own trucks and may have received $150-$200 from members for my efforts. But that's just the way it goes, too bad huh? I've got loads of other SOLID ideas that I am not going to openly share for that exact reason, either I'll market and sell them myself or I'll sell the ideas to someone else. Since you brought up the issue of royalties. In my "full time business" I personally pay royalites of 3.5% on annual sales of $1,000,000.00, so I know about royalties, good faith, bad faith, copyrights, user/license agreements and all that crap. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: The 99 and up use split shot injectors, totally different and react different to air and not sealing than single shot injectors. Quote: Low octane fuel will ignite on it's own from compression and act just like the timing is advanced too far, which is exactly what air or incomplete fill does to a split shot injector, it ADVANCES the timing of the main fuel shot. When the engine is cold the ECM retards the timing, changes all the injection parameters, everything. Don't confuse these engines with gas burners or standard single shot injected Powerstrokes, the 99 and up trucks are an entirely new game. The whole problem is the the fuel supply system on these trucks and the POS split shot injectors. Do yourself a favor, go spend $175 and get a split shot injector core and take it apart, look it over real good, then call me and I'll walk you through 15 or more serious issues that will jump right out at you once you know what to look for and how the injector works. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Hey Hutch, If you feel like you want to make some money, I'll drive my truck down to Augusta and you can do the fuel mods for me 
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
DB: I will try to chime in without igniting too many flames, but you can see that this is a pretty emotional issue. To begin with, I will agree with you that not all PSDs "cackle" regularly in an audible sense. Some are really bad, some not so, but IMHO, all of them have the design problem whose symptoms vary due to production tolerances. The problem of idle knock is too coincidentally 1/2 of the frequency of cackle to ignore the probability of being the same problem being expressed under different combustion chamber conditions, as is the "gear rollower" BS you hear in the manual transmission. The REAL problem is that you can have all sorts of deficiencies with the combustion process and the engine will keep right on running. To many observers (selectively including the entire FoMoCo organization) that is prima facie evidence that there is not problem at all (LL#8, what LL#8?). Then you have a faction that would not believe that anything done in the name of the blue oval could possibly be criticised. When you ask someone if they have cackle and knock, how can they respond? While some observers are able to recognize the symptoms, the vast majority (including some highly trained and skilled) can not. The only definitive way to "see" the problem is to do what Doug (TT) did, and instrument the combustion chamber to find out what the cylinder pressure is at any given point in the stroke. The only definitive way to know for sure you have eliminated the problem is to instrument the CC for CP, etc. I base my observations on many years of listening to thousands of engines, stock and modified, as part of diagnosis and development. When I hear a PSD, I know it is not right, ANY stock PSD, especially with an open or low restriction exhaust where you can really rear the idle assymetry. Some is normal on a V8, but just listen to the exhaust and combustion noise from a same year DT444E and the comparrisson becomes easy - if you have a good ear. I also use my personal experience with a 450 Powerjoke. When an engine using 130 to 150 horsepower cannot pull a very clean (aerodynamically) and relatively light trailer on any less fuel than a class 8 tractor can pull a squared off 53' van at 80k# at the same speed (using at least 250 HP), then you can be assured, the OEM did a p*ss poor job of managing the resources available to the engine. When the "backyard garage" fixes developed by the members of this site can give me nearly 20% better efficiency (only 10% sometimes, but fuel quality and road conditions do vary) with no other changes, it tells me that if we haven't found the "truth", we have surely dissproved one of the lies (that there is no problem). Finally, you will have so much trouble getting definitive answers because we are a bunch of individuals. The point is, who else is doing anything for you on this count? Ford? Navistar? The problem doesn't seem to exist in the IHC installations, only FoMoCo. I will state with absolute confidence that there is more collective brainpower, and INFINITELY better experience and intent at work on this issue at thedieselstop than there ever was at the OEM. So, good luck in your quest. Pat |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Hey Hutch... If it is #8LL injector, then will replacing this injector "cure it?". According to the TSB, it may get louder!. Has anyone put a non LL injector in #8.. Did it Cure the problem? If the tank and pump mods eliminate the noise, but the problem is the injector, then the fix is only a mask, is this true??? Edited by DB (03/15/03 09:14 AM) |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Pat... The noise I am refering to is the "ball peen" hammering noise that is not a constant sound.. It sounds "exactly like a hammer hitting metal".. This is Cackle, Right?? When I first heard it I was in a drive-thru fast food line waiting to place my order. I said to myself, "What the heck is that?". Now everyone refers to it in the mid rpm band.. This noise was at idle!..It was not the FAMOUS KNOCK, but infamous "PANG".. I have heard the wav. files and listening to them, they are panging at idle... funny thing. While filling the tank yesterday a real sharp 2000 pulled up behind me. I listened very carefully to his engine as it idled.. With 125000 on his, his truck sounded BETTER!!! He had a 4 inch exhaust installed, guages, a B&M auto tranny pan, but other than that it was a stock truck.. Shoot, I have a hundred thousand less miles and I would like my truck to sound as good as his...He didnt even have the Idle knock!!!! Edited by DB (03/15/03 09:25 AM) |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
After reading this, I consider myself fortunate. With no mods my 01 runs like a #aped ape. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Is it possible that the problem of "Cackle" is not directly related to air in the fuel, but is rather a fuel pressure issue. If this is the case, then there are a number of was to "isolate" where the problem is.. If air is removed from the fuel, this would increase the fuel pressure at the injector nozzle by eliminating the fact that air compresses and fuel does not.On the other hand, by increasing the fuel pressure via a regulator or feeding the fuel from the opposite side of the head, this again my solve the problem. Or, maybe the problem is in the High Pressure Oil Pump!. If oil pressure is increased, allowing more pressure on the injectors, this too may eliminate the problem. Was the High Pressure oil Pump changed in the 98.5 to 2003 7.3 engines??? Another way of increasing the oil pressure is to use a different engine oil, possibley a straight weight oil. Could oil foaming allow the High Pressure Oil Pump to operate at a lower pressure than allowed by the specifications to properly operate?. See where I am going with this? I am attempting to locate the "real culprit" and not just throw something at it to eliminate the sympton.. I want to find the cause... |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Hey Willpower, see what I mean? They ALL DON'T DO IT!!! |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: No bad blood ever intended coming from this side, I think your opinions on these issues are so strong you sometimes come across as arrogant and angry about it. Your posts are a little misleading in the "tone" I must admit that. Heck, I may be just as guilty of that as you, I don't know. Quote: I knew you had the Vortex sitting in your garage waiting to install it, that, for me was an additional endorsement of the product in it self. let me know where you mounted the unit, I'm interested to know that. (What is K.I.S.S.) Quote: Nope, they (everyone working on these trucks with ideas is they) have not learned everything there is to know. That's my point; they are keeping it to themselves as a business decision just like you said you are doing. Quote: OK, maybe I got that wrong, point is that there are still some problems being worked out, I read and hear about them, so they must exist. Are you willing to say that every truck out there that has the tank and return mods is running perfectly, no cackle, no other issues, no other problems related to the mods and fuel? That's my point. Quote: Call me what you may...... I've really never instigate confrontation for fun, I take these issues seriously, I own the truck, I love that truck, I am an enthusiast of the ford truck product, if I've ever instigated for fun that statement was the only time I've done so. I was messing with you for the fun of it. If that makes me a "troll" in your eyes so be it. I don't care what you or anyone else thinks of me, I'm too old to care. Quote: Without getting into specifics I'd be happy to share that with you and everyone reading this, I have been turning wrenches or managing people turning them for my entire career span, I started out as a mechanic as a kid, started by working in service stations at 14 or so learning from an old timer with allot of skill, then went on to working for dealers, was certified, did that for 5 or 6 years. Got tired of working on cars and trucks for a living and the bull that came with working at dealers. I then went into the HVAC mechanical trade, again certified, and worked on everything from packaged systems to 800 ton centrifugal chillers, large steam boilers, you name it. I did that for say 9 or 10 years, worked my way from an apprentice to a manager. Got into pneumatic controls and digital controls as a result of the HVAC career and turned that into another career. I then designed digital control systems, project managed each job with full responsibility for the bottom line, programmed the databases, developed the graphics for the operator interfaces and the list goes on and on. Right now I'm back to managing HVAC mechanics again. By the way for fun (before I had kids 12 years ago) I used to own, build and run drag boats, top speed 183 in the quarter.... which I miss very much but I will not sacrifice my kids by doing it right now. I've never pretended to be an expert diesel mechanic but I have allot of background with engines and mechanics and I am very comfortable turning a wrench. Does this help or hurt my creditability Hutch? Quote: I've never said or implicated in any way that you should not or can not speak your mind, I rather enjoy discussing the issues with you. (so to speak) I just need to learn you style and accept it, which is what I am having trouble with. Quote: Fact, the designs of the modifications are theories developed by you and others in an effort to resolve the facts stated above. That's my only point. I do not and have not ever disputed the facts listed above, but you keep referring back to them, I have not been discussing those facts, they are the given, the modifications are the issue at hand. Quote: I was out of line when I said that, you deserve royalties for any and all tank modifications (as far as I am concerned) I'm starting to put together ideas of my own and I can relate on a personal level with the "miss the boat" on making money thing. John |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: #1 No, #2 Yes it can get louder #3 lots of guys have changed out their LL injector, some report all OK and some report still having a knock, however FEW have taken the time to find and replace any additional knocking injectors, also just replacing the LL injector does not mean the "rebuilt" AD injector you bought is any good at all, yes it will fire but how is the timing? I've installed and removed 3 injectors that were "rebuilt" and knocked like a big dog. Checking the gross CC volume or CC's of flow per 1000 strokes on a split shot injector will NOT tell you if the injector is hitting BOTH the pre and main fuel shot. The SS injectors really bend and break a lot of the "tried and true" rules for diesel fuel injection. If take 24 rebuilt SS injectors and make 3 closely matched sets, the injectors that test on the "high" side of volume are most likely NOT THE GOOD ONES  I KNOW of three mayby four ways to check for two GOOD and definite TWO shots of fuel, however I don't have the equipmqnt and I'm not going to spend that kind of money and time on something AGIAN that I'll never recoup anything my investment from, that's asking too much of anyone.DB and Elkster, you guys want to investigate all this stuff over agian, bring me $5,500 and come get the test mule, then spend another $35K-$45K for a dyno, than another $30-$40K to RENT test equipment a few hundred hours getting everything set up. You also need a good understanding of how all this stuff works and how a diesel fuel system works, so I don't know how much time you'll need to invest in that portion. Then realize if you find anything 1/2 way deep you'll spend a time ratio of about 500:1 here, meaning for every hour you spend investigating, testing and modifying you'll spend 500 hours here defending and trying to explain what the issue is, what you found and how you corrected it over and over and over and over agian. Sounds like a good way to spend your time and money, don't it? |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Well, I see Elk chaser is up to 99 posts. Maybe you can answer this with #100. Why is it that when Hutch put his mods on my truck, it got "gasser" quiet? It was so loud before it was down right annoying. I couldn't order at a drive-thru without turning it off. Now I can. I can't even hear the engine at 70MPH. And there are dozens if not hundreds of others who have the same results from fixing the leaking air in the suction line between the tank pickup and the fuel pump. No, this doesn't solve the problem of Pat's air, and in fact, the pre-pump filter can actually make this issue worse if not done properly, but removing the bubbles seen in Hutch's pictures is 90% of the problem solved. No, it doesn't fix the problem of having #8 fire right after #6. It doesn't fix the hot fuel in the head because Ford decided to dead-end the fuel rails. But if someone can make a 90% improvement in the way their truck sounds and runs for $20 worth of parts from Lowe's, why do you have such a problem with it? Maybe Willpower got a "good" fuel system that doesn't leak air. Hopefully it will not develop a leak. Maybe willpower (nothing personal) doesn't know what to listen for. I would like to see what would happen if he did the Hutch mods to his truck. The one question that eludes me more than Cackle is why you continue to troll this site and discredit the efforts of others who have given so much time, effort, help, and truly meaningful information to the others on this site? I am glad to see you admit that you intentionally stir up crap with those who have given their valuable information to us. I don't have to worry that I may have misinterpreted your intentions. Troll. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
DixieDiesel I am not and have not ever said that the mods themnselves are not good! I have not ever said that the PSD does not have a problem! I have not ever said to anyone that they should not do the mods! Read my posts carefully, I have questioned the specifics of the methods, I have questioned the designs of the mods and in my opinion (right or wrong) they are not fully complete in the implementation of the designs. Say what you will, I have seen you bander and harrass many people on this site for their opinions on this issue. My opinions are my own, I was convinced to try the tank mod and pre-pump mod in my own way, I have dropped my tank twice so far and will more than likely drop it one more time to comfirm things. I am testing the methods. After I am done testing it out and feel confident in my installation I will endorse it to anyone that has a cackle issue to try it out. I do not agree with all the methods for the tank mod and pre-pump mod installations including the pre-filter. In my opinion there are many variables that need discussing to finally come to a positive and conclusive result for the good of all that install these mods. Is there a problem with that?? Let's make this very clear - I have not ever told Hutch he does not know what he is talking about, I have respect for his knowledge and I have thanked him several times for his efforts. I have questioned the different methods of installation, it's that simple, no one can say that absolutley no problems have arised from installing the mods, we read about them all the time. Nor can anyone say that after one measly year that the methods for the mods are fully tested for reliablity and durability. I clearly stated that I was messing with Hutch when I made the statement that I cross him for the fun of it, (margaretas talking)truth be told I would not do that, I take these issues too seriously. You go and find one post where it clearly looks like I did that. If my involvement in these discussions is "trolling" in your opinion then so be it, again I don't care what you think. I am telling people to be carefull in their decsion to do the mods, it's that simple, the methods are not fully proven to me and they are not fully proven to many others on this site, both those that have done the mods as well as those that are reading up on them to see if they really want to do them. Read other peoples responses, there are many others with much more knowledge than mine or yours that question the mods and the methods. This is not a closed issue by any means. If my input is not of value to you then do what I do to most of your posts, IGNOR THEM. John
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
DB and Elk_Chaser this is mostly FYI ... so I don't know the actual source/cause but I feel that I know how to tell if your vehicle has knock or cackle since my limited testing was really limited but let me try and explain. Last year around this time I tried to do some acoustic testing using some fairly sophisticated narrowband FFT equipment. This was based on what I considered probably the best method to go about analyzing this phenomena which also appeared to be used HERE and an approach I believe in and have personally seen the power of. Of note is that this way before the failed LL#8 injector fix was adopted. I think they identified the source/cause it's just the fix was driven by other than technically based factors. I won't go into all the details here but in a nutshell, I feel and believe that a knocker and/or cackler puts out a unique narrow band acoustic signal that can be detected whether or not you can hear it. I was able to do a lot of testing on my Van which I do not think has cackle or at least I can't hear it, but does at times get an audible idle knock that comes and goes. If you look HERE these are two of the acoustic plots for my Van on 4/23/02 and you can see from the comments that the audible knocker has a very unique acoustic signature with harmonics at 5.75Hz whereas when the audible knock on my van went away so did the unique acoustic signature. These two plots were taken within two minutes of each other. Now interesting enough at 670 rpms idle equates to 11.167 rev per sec and each cylinder fires every other revolution so 11.167 / 2 = 5.58Hz so those harmonics in the graph on the left are somehow cylinder frequency related. I repeated these tests the next day with similar results and you can see the acoustic plots HERE in the top two plots. Later in that day's data collection I did the lower two graphs and saw some acoustic structure, but could not get any good harmonic type correlation for any base frequency. I also ran the same acoustic analysis on the wave files on the site here where you can hear the knocker, etc and those plots are shown HERE and please note the 5.5Hz harmonic structure in all the plots whether you could hear it knocking or not. 
I also did a lot of graphs for various conditions at speed on two consecutive days for rpms between 1200 and 1900 under the slight load conditions uphill that typically make an engine cackle. You can see all this information in the album HERE. If you look carefully at these various plots you won't see any structured acoustic structure like in the previously mentioned audible knocker plot. If you look HERE I tried to take this to the next level, but was only semi successful. I analyzed quite a few TDS members (eight total including me) wave files and three gave me permission to post the results publicly and those were Arch, JimTJr., and dtb and you can see the work I did if you look at the plots in the album HERE you can see the results of this effort. Please compare Arch's plots at speed with mine at speed which I found interesting to say the least and Arch as I remember did not consider his to be a poorly running vehicle. You might also want to look at the following related threads for some more information: my cackle .wav's Cackle wav anyone? Does yours cackle this bad? My wave files at idle and 2000 rpms I will leave it up to the reader/researcher to come to their own conclusions, and while I never got to do a good validation on my attempt to analyze this idle knock/cackle phenomenon using something more objective than simply listening to what the vehicle sounded like and owner testimonials, I feel the root source whatever it is can be seen acoustically. Even the couple of vehicles that I looked at with and without mods, I was still able to detect this cylinder related harmonic structure both before and after. Once there it basically remained there albeit altered usually in the relative peaks, but that might be elusive because many of these recordings did not have a good ambient reference. However, the time frame I was attempting to do some solid research was also the time frame where the various mods were very popular to say the least
However, based on the cylinder related harmonic structures I saw in all the vehicles except mine (and note I never got one to look like mine ) I feel my vehicle did not at the time have the cackle source and since I'm happy with the way mine runs, has dynoed exceptionally well, and have what I consider a good baseline on my vehicle I feel I'm set. If things change in the future then I have a non cackle basis to compare what I might do on the best objective basis I can and not simply listen for changes in how the vehicle sounds.
Enjoy and don't forget to look at the first line in my signature for my standard disclaimer
ON EDIT Forgot to add that while the exact issues might be different this acoustic based phenomenon was evidently important enough to do THIS in the 6.0L design which I'm sure wasn't just for looks since it has to cost something to do this
Larry Edited by Larry M (03/15/03 12:26 PM) |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
My 01 has been running terrible. I chased around the city yesterday for about 100k (62.8 mi in America) and at the end it was so doggy and rough that I couldn"t stand it.(light throttle 1400to 1900) I'll start with the tank mod and take it in steps,trying each mod and giving a couple weeks. This discussion about the quality of the split shot injectors vs.the timing is interesting and makes sense after looking at the graphs of cylinder pressure vs.timing(relative to tdc of each piston and how the 2 step injection was altered in #8 after the fuel mod. bringing the curve in line with the other cylinders). I was wondering what part the viscosity of fuel plays in each cylinder's injector timing ie. #2 has "cool fuel"and #8 has "hot"fuel. Don't cummins have external fuel feeds?Perhaps the fuel mods are just as important for more even fuel temp.and to get rid of some strange "fluid harmonic" at the end of the rail as the air thing. Must have had too much coffee to think like this first thing in the morning( Or else Freud would say something must be bugging you) |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Since no one answered this I will. K.I.S.S.= Technical jargon normally despised by engineers but a common phrase with technicians and mechanics. Keep It Simple Stupid |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Larry That's interesting data, it would be nice if you had a strip of a International 444 and maybe a V8 gaser for comparison sake. It would be real interesting to see how the 444 compares in harmonics to the PSD. The other thing that I would like to see is the year of the trucks that you have those strips on, I think I have read from many people that say that the early PSD's fuel systems were designed differently and that they did not have cackle, do you have a strip on one of those? John
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Subman Thank you, I feel simple for not figuring that out on my own. I appreciate it. John
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
DB The LL injector in #8 is not the cause of the Cackle it was put there to be the cure. It was Fords fix for the problem that was done as a TSB to start with then put in all trucks after about April 2,000. I have heard ford stopped using them in 2003 again. Trying to describe and fix something that by sound (human ear) is very difficult once more than one human is involved. That is why we have a hard time over the Internet we might not be talking about the same thing. Texas Towncar has some great pressure and temp info that points to part of the problem. He has measured studies that anyone could reproduce with the same equipment. His is able to do accurate testing on his modifications with this equipment. One of the things he points out is there can be other issues to the problem that need to be fixed first like a bad CPS. The amount of air a fuel system allows into the fuel will vary with each truck because the system has too many weak points and which one will cause or not cause the problem is unknown. Your point that all trucks should or should not Cackle is well taken. But, there are too many variables. I believe that the fuel system is adequate to marginal and when you throw air into the mix that is when you really see the problem. I believe some fuel systems don’t leak much air and you won’t hear a problem with them, but as Texas Towncar has pointed out they can still have high pressures. So if you throw all the issues in one big pile its easy to see why some don’t even believe in Cackle. If your truck sounds OK do you still have high cylinder pressure problems or not? Is it worth the money and effort to find a shop that can test cylinder pressures? Do the pressures cause problems with the tranny/clutch/pilot bearing? I am getting ready to do the tank and TT mods, Because I think enough good research has been done in that area. Thanks to the members on this site. I expect even more information will come to light in the future but for now if you want a root cause I think it is the deadhead fuel system and air in the fuel. DENNY |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
DB: From what I have seen (heard), the idle knock is pretty easy to tell. It sounds like a big ball peen hammer whacking the crankcase or head casting every second rev. This miss is very pronounced on most PSDs, and I think that the #8 event is responsible for the "gear rollover" heard at those rev ranges. Another member had actually put an accelerometer onto a crank and confirmed the big torsional resonance that can be heard and felt. I also credit this phenomenon in the cackle RPM range as contributing to clutch and other driveline durability problems. The smaller hammering noises at higer revs, thus higher frequencies may be present in every diesel to some extent, but in the PSD they tend to come and go. What I find is charactaristic of cackle is more like a miss up to 2,000. Mine has always been doing that to a small extent, whereas the idle miss and knock were quite pronounced before mods. I have driven a number of 7.3s, but can't honestly say I could charactarize "cackle" as any one sound standing out in any, but I can definitely tell that in my truck, there is some kind of lesser or out-of-time cylinder (s?) between 1500 and 2000. Sorry that probably doesn't help answer your question as precisely as I would like, but that is what I have seen, felt and heard. Many different experiments and mods suggest that fuel pressure alone is not the cause of cackle and knock, but incorrect pressure (insufficient) in a post-rail reg will definitly change the sound of the engine. The problem of delayed fire on main #8 charge is one related to air being in the injector when it wants to start injecting, allowing the plunger to skip by the pilot portion of its stroke and deliver the main quanitity when it should be injecting the pilot charge. IF the injector works right, and IF it is not fed any air, it cannot do this. Ford knows it does (and I speculate the knew EXACTLY what it did) because of the nature of the LL#8 "fix". What they didn't know is how to stop the cause, rather than unsuccessfully try to treat the symptom. Hutch always comes back to the absolute truth of this thing - air does not belong in the injectors. Although the HP circuit may indeed play a part in the whole thing, a bit of air will not change the pressure in the system, as long as the pump has the excess capacity to compress it. What air in that side WILL do is screw up the time for the ICP regulator to respond to commands, while the air is expanding or compressing, vs. the near instantaneous result of a purely hydraulic circuit. This is why Hutch had dismal results with the accumulator in the HP side (huge hesitation) and why there is a different sound for quite a while while a new HX mod gets around to purging its entrained air. Larry: My sincere appologies for having forgotten the accoustic signatures from your previous work. Glad you brought it up. This was strongly influential in my resolve to regard the cackle issue as quite real to design, and not just an anamoly in my lemon, as was your input on the relatively low amounts of energy required to liberate air in solution. All: Does any of us definitively know the cause of cackle? I doubt it. But, we sure as heck have a lot better collective understanding and body of evidence than any other single place on the planet. Pat |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: They were all 99+(early 99, early(?) 99, 99.5F350, two 2001F250, two 2002 F350/250 and my 2001 E350) That's all there is and can't get anymore, Indian giver took all these neat stuff back ... I was lucky I got to use it at all, this stuff is not cheap .Larry |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Friggin palefaces. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
Quote: I sure don't despise that phrase. We try to use it all the time in our work. When you engineer a mechanical system for a remote Alaska village, it pays off to use the KISS principle. It pays off most everywhere, else too. 
|
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
MY Turn, Cackle, from what I understand is described as, On a gasser motor, advance the timing until it starts pinging, this is what it sounds like on our engines??? IMO, something in the fuel system, is on the edge of being in/out of running right...This would explain why some do/some dont... Aeriation of the fuel is a no/no, get rid of this right away...Makes truck run better/jump higher!!! HPOP, #6,#8 consecutive firing has to do with it as well...Fix these.. When a process is running right on the edge, it doesn't take much to get pushed/fall off the edge..any variation or combonation of factors can push it out... Thats also why the fuel quality has to do with it as well, different fuels/fuel qualities can push it wrong as well... Getting rid of the variations in the fuel system can prevent/reduce the engine from going into falling off the edge.. Someone could write a book on this stuff... My opinions guys, not picking on anyone...Hutch, congrats on the garage tuning!!! |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Mark, Did you forget your meds again? You remember what a POS my truck was when I visited you. Cackle all the way down the highway.  I've been telling you how sweet it runs now so you know all our effort pays off. The pot stirrers and naysayers can bite my beeeeehind.It's difficult to understand our pain until you are standing there with the top of the engine torn apart weighing your options. Take it back to the dealer and try and jam it up their rear OR maybe, just maybe, if I throw a few hours and a thousand bucks at it I can get it to run like it is supposed to. It's a scenario I don't wish on anyone. I was so sick of pulling fuel lines, valve covers, and injectors that I was ready to cry (real big tears, not the little sissy ones), but I got it running now baby. And you better get the hell out the way when you see me in the rearview because it's too late to mash your go pedal. Aim for the ditch buddy, it's your only hope!!!  Any of you guys that think your stock setup runs fine are welcome to come and drive my garage engineered and modified monster anytime. Then we'll stand around and have a cold one while you ask me all the questions you will have after driving it.  It's a forum man!!! Everyone gits to flip their 2 cents in. |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Gateman, I am with you...This truck is not the same stock fuel system junk, knocking, vibrating, lopeing engine... It runs and sounds like a diesel is supposed to!!!! |
||||||||||
|
|
|||||||||
|
Mach1, Right on brother! You have felt the pain and now have reaped the gain. Hey that's pretty good maybe it could be our mantra. 
|
||||||||||
| Pages: 1 | ||||||||||
Going to Investigate Cackle Issues
Re: Going to Investigate Cackle Issues
