Archives >> 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain (11/01-7/03)

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Phil Sag
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Reged: 10/24/99
Posts: 135
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
coolant change to new gold antifreeze
#1233387 - 05/28/03 09:11 PM

If I drain and flush the cooling system very thoroughly several times would it be OK to use Zerex G-05 antifreeze in a 2000 PSD?

rock_doctor
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Posts: 192
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1233674 - 05/28/03 11:21 PM

Ford has no position on the conversion of a green cooling system to gold. But if you make totally sure that all of the green is out of the complete system including the heater core then it should not be a problem. Just follow the refill procedures that have been posted periodically.

mark

ExcursionPSD
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Loc: Milwaukee WI
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1233797 - 05/29/03 12:37 AM

Ford has continued to say NOT to use gold coolant in vehicles originally equipped with green coolant:

...Testing is currently underway to determine the backward compatibility of the Motorcraft Premium Gold Engine Coolant in vehicles equiped with the green-colored Motorcraft Premium Engine Coolant, ... Until the final test results are available, vehicles should ONLY be serviced with type of coolant with which they were originally equipped. TSB 02-23-7 ...Motorcraft Premium Gold Engine Coolant... The initial-fill life for this coolant is 100,000 miles/5 years. Due to variations in water quality, the replacement interval is 50,000 miles/3 years.

The Motorcraft Premimum Gold Engine Coolant is Zerex G-05, I am told. Acording to Valvoline's Zerex G-05 product page, The G-05 "Utilizes hybrid Organic Acid Technology to minimize inhibitor depletion" and is a "Low-Silicate, Low-pH and phosphate-free formula" it is virgin ethylene glycol based, it comes in concentrate and Ready-to-use (premixed) packages. It meets Ford WSS-M97B51-A1 spec. Behind the MSDS/Product Info section menu, there are GREAT detail specs for this product.

(above paragraph added on edit)

International said in a letter on their web site:... an extended life coolant will cause injector and water pump seal deterioration, by reacting with some brass compounds and some silicon-based seal materials. Coolant must meet ESE-M99B44-A spec ON V8 MOTORS BUILT BEFORE Feb. 2, 1999. After that date, Texaco ELC Ethylene Glycol colored raspbery red (Organic Acid Technology) is OK for up to 150k miles, 30 months, then add extender to get another 150k, 30 months. This is further explained in page 2 of their TELC letter which tells when they cutover their T444E (motor the Power Stroke is based on) to Organic Acid Technology compatible components.

Ford also does not recommend nor endorse Propylene glycol based coolants, although it says warranty is not automatically voided upon the use of a coolant made with propylene glycol, if such use results in damage to the vehicle or its components, the cost of repair will not be covered by warranty. TSB 01-23-06

Edited by ExcursionPSD (05/30/03 06:52 PM)

JJD
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Reged: 05/08/03
Posts: 60
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234003 - 05/29/03 07:26 AM

My 2002 psd came with the Motorcraft Premium Gold antifreeze. Since I dont need to use the additive, how long does this stuff last? How long before a flush???

rock_doctor
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Posts: 192
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234093 - 05/29/03 09:16 AM

Look in the manual that came with the truck. I believe the flush and refill interval is something like 60k but a dealer once suggested that 50k is a little more reasonable. So something in that time frame probably is ok.

mark

JRF
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Posts: 217
Loc: Upper Hanover Twp, Pa
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234120 - 05/29/03 09:36 AM

Gold coolant is 5 years or 100,000 miles whichever comes first. After that its every 3 years or 50,000 miles.

bandit67
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Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234142 - 05/29/03 09:51 AM

ExcursionPSD,

So it sounds like we can safely change over from the green coolant with FW-16 SCA to the Texaco ELC Ethylene Glycol red coolant if our motor was built after Feb. 1999. Do we also need to change or add a coolant filter on our motors in that instance?

Has anyone else switched over to the Texaco ELC, and what are your observations?

SmokeyWrenModerator
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Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234189 - 05/29/03 10:35 AM

Quote:

So it sounds like we can safely change over from the green coolant with FW-16 SCA to the Texaco ELC Ethylene Glycol red coolant if our motor was built after Feb. 1999.




NO!

Unless, of course, you have an International truck with an International cooling system.

Your Ford uses the same basic engine as the International, but a completely different cooling system. And Ford says do NOT use ELC in any PSD. If your truck came with green coolant and FW-16, then that's what you should use. If your 2002 or later truck came with gold coolant, then that's what you should use.

Read the TSB ExcursionPSD linked to above. That's the final word from Ford.

The stuff on the International site he also linked to is interesting, but does NOT apply to Ford PSDs.

Beagle1
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Loc: Great Lakes State
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234392 - 05/29/03 01:29 PM

Now I'm puzzled Smokey. If you get all the green out why shouldn't you go Gold? I'm sure the water pump, radiator and injector o-rings have not changed. Besides, if they did, then you would be putting 2002 level parts on a 1999 truck if and when they needed servicing.

I just switched to gold, and if the reason not to is valid, I will re-do it. No big deal, just some coolant lost.

Ford's TSB tells me nothing except what most already know THEY DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. Which shouldn't come as a major surprise to anyone.

bandit67
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Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234529 - 05/29/03 03:21 PM

[quote And Ford says do NOT use ELC in any PSD. If your truck came with green coolant and FW-16, then that's what you should use. If your 2002 or later truck came with gold coolant, then that's what you should use.




Wait a minute, Smokey. The gold coolant IS an extended life coolant which does not need SCA's added by the consumer, and was standard issue from the factory in 2002 and newer 7.3 PSD's.

The issue that is brought to my attention in my 2001 manual is the chemical composition of the coolant and how propylene glycol based coolants will damage some components. If a coolant with the acceptable chemical makeup - ie. ethylene glycol with the SCA's included, is used, then I want to know of any instances where that type of coolant has caused damage to an engine previously filled with the green + FW16 combination. Ford does say not to MIX coolant types in the system, but if a thorough flush of the entire system is done, and the new generation coolant is then put in, is there evidence of damage to the motor?

Just because Ford hasn't put forth the time or money to test the new generation ethylene glycol based coolant formulations in our pre-2002 7.3's, doesn't necessarily mean that it will damage the engine. It simply means no one's proved that it WILL damage the engine.

I've been holding off doing my coolant flush until I can get enough info on this matter. I don't want to put the (green + FW16) coolant in again simply because "it's always been done that way" or "Ford says" (if they haven't researched it thoroughly). I've seen no proof yet that the new ethylene glycol based coolants with the SCA's included will NOT do as good a job, if not better than the old green + FW16 combo in my motor.

So, what I'm looking for is a post from someone who's changed over to the newer coolant, and had some sort of problem or failure because of it.

Beagle1
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Loc: Great Lakes State
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234568 - 05/29/03 04:00 PM

Quote:

So, what I'm looking for is a post from someone who's changed over to the newer coolant, and had some sort of problem or failure because of it.






Wait a year...I'm sure my POS won't let you down...something's bound to fail

SmokeyWrenModerator
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Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234653 - 05/29/03 05:28 PM

Quote:

Wait a minute, Smokey. The gold coolant IS an extended life coolant ....




No. Not technically.

When Ford says extended life coolant (ELC), they mean coolant based on organic acid technology (OAT). Basically, the Texaco OAT, including the GM DEXCool and Catepillar CatCool variety of orange or red ELC coolant (orange for cars, red for diesels includes PenCool supplemental coolant additive).

ELC requires additives (SCA) for use in a diesel engine, and since Ford, International, and Cummins didn't allow ELC at first, almost all the red ELC for diesels includes the Chevy SCA instead of the Ford SCA - Pencool instead of FW-16. (Both International and Cummins changed their cooling systems so you can use ELC in their new engines - but Ford still says no.)

The gold coolant (Zerex G-05) lasts longer than the old green stuff, but not for several hundred thousand miles the way a true ELC will last if you continue to add SCA when needed. The primary advantages of the Gold coolant is that it doesn't need SCA at all, and it lasts about twice as long (100,000 vs. 45,000 miles) as the green coolant before you need your first drain and flush.


SmokeyWrenModerator
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Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234664 - 05/29/03 05:38 PM

Quote:

If you get all the green out why shouldn't you go Gold?




Because Ford said not too.

You're the trainer of the Ford techs, and you write the Ford training guides for those techs to use. And you're asking me???

Ford first said they were testing use of the gold coolant in the '99 thru 2001 PSDs about 18 months ago. I would think they'd have some results by now. But I haven't heard a peep out of them.

Warning: Conspiracy theory ahead: Maybe they're waiting for Zerex to cross their palms with green stuff before they say it's okay to use G-05 in the older PSDs???

jswillms
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Posts: 634
Loc: Peoples Republic of Austin, Tx
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234766 - 05/29/03 07:17 PM

Just thinking out loud...

Is it possible that the engine gets "seasoned" with green coolant, i.e seals are already "contaminated" with the green stuff. Thus, introducing the new coolant can attack the "seasoned" seals and cause problems vs. introducing the coolant into a virgin engine that has never seen the green stuff??? I really doubt that they have gone through all of their existing parts stock to change out the seal material to updated 2002 only parts. Maybe they did, but I doubt it.

PSDMustangMike
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Loc: Minnesota
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1234841 - 05/29/03 08:30 PM

From what I understand about anti cavitation additives for diesel engines they work by creating a self healing coating on the engine block that protects the block from cavitation damage. It may be possible that this coating remains on the interior of the block no matter how much you flush the cooling system. If that is the case the chemistry of the coating left by the green coolant may be incompatable with the chemisty of the coating formed by the gold coolant. I don't know if this is the case but it may be why it is recommended that you don't switch coolant types.

Mike

Phil Sag
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Reged: 10/24/99
Posts: 135
Loc: NYC, NY, USA
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1235016 - 05/29/03 10:03 PM

Taking everything that has been posted into consideration, I will stay safe and just do a regular flush and refill with the same old "green" antifreeze and FW 16 additive this way if there is ever a warranty issue the dealer will not have any way to try to void the warranty.

Thanks!

bandit67
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Reged: 08/26/02
Posts: 442
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1235531 - 05/30/03 09:19 AM

Quote:

Taking everything that has been posted into consideration, I will stay safe and just do a regular flush and refill with the same old "green" antifreeze and FW 16 additive this way if there is ever a warranty issue the dealer will not have any way to try to void the warranty.

Thanks!




Yeah, looks like I'll just stick with the old green with FW16 combo. This was a very timely thread. Now to go pick up the supplies.

ExcursionPSD
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Posts: 682
Loc: Milwaukee WI
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1236247 - 05/30/03 06:55 PM

I just added to my previous post, the detail links and some info about the Zerex G-05 being a hybrid Organic Acid Technology, ethylene glycol based antifreeze.

Hope this helps.

Beagle1
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Loc: Great Lakes State
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1236443 - 05/30/03 09:15 PM

Uh Smokey...I left that gig in June of 99 for the Dyno World. I had no business in Dockers stuffed in a cube!

So I am out of the loop these days...

Beagle1
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Posts: 1328
Loc: Great Lakes State
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1236455 - 05/30/03 09:23 PM

Enough with the "Maybe Ford thinks this or that". I am contacting Valvoline/Zerex directly on Monday from work. That'll be enough wondering for me. I either need to go back to green or I don't.

I know, some of you are thinking, "Yeah right, like they'll tell you when may have been told not to". You see "Ve hav vays of makin' dem speak". I said I'll call from work, my questions "must" be realted to a project we are working on As long as no one from there reads this

Johnp034
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Reged: 03/30/03
Posts: 361
Loc: Ohio
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1236924 - 05/31/03 08:51 AM

O.K. now whats the deal with the "EVANS" coolant? Is it ok to use? For the price it should rebuild your water pump, also! Can we use it? Should we use it? Whats a guy to do? Is it Green, is it Gold? Which way so we go?

haul_n_horses2
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Reged: 04/22/02
Posts: 1994
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1236958 - 05/31/03 10:06 AM

It is totally different. Waterless and very high boiling point and very low freezing point. You do not have to pressurize the cooling system so far fewer leaking seal problems and you do not have to use anti-cavitation supplements so there is no gritty stuff flaking off to be filtered or to damage seals. It is highly regarded but no approved by FoMoCo.

ExcursionPSD
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Reged: 04/26/00
Posts: 682
Loc: Milwaukee WI
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1237211 - 05/31/03 03:20 PM

In their TELC letter International explains and even lists the parts to eliminate the coolant filter when changing over to the Texaco Extended Life Coolant (rapberry red). The mention that their newer motors do not have a coolant filter at all, because it was only necessary to add SCA's to the coolant and remove the abrasive silicate dropout from the old additives. This TELC does not have the same additive package that Ford Premium Gold (Zerex G-05) has.

The Texaco ELC also has an extender package available for use after 150,000 miles or 600 hours. The Zerex G-05 has no extender package, it must be drained. They are both 'compatible' with conventional coolants, but they lose their longer life feature and would then need to be supported with conventional SCA anti-cavitation additives (like FW-16)

Beagle1
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Posts: 1328
Loc: Great Lakes State
Re: coolant change to new gold antifreeze new
#1241969 - 06/03/03 07:10 PM

Quote:

The Zerex G-05 has no extender package, it must be drained. They are both 'compatible' with conventional coolants, but they lose their longer life feature and would then need to be supported with conventional SCA anti-cavitation additives (like FW-16)






Yup, spoke with Valvoline today. No problem switching to Gold from Green. Some extended properties may be lost, but it can be checked with test strips like the green. I checked mine, it's perfect. So the Gold will stay...

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