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diesel dave 99
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MPG AND CACKLE
#595977 - 12/19/01 06:34 AM
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DO ALL TRUCKS THAT CACKLE GET BAD MPG?
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF THE CACKLE AND BAD FUEL MILEAGE GO HAND AND HAND.
MY TRUCK CACKLES AND HAS THE IDLE KNOCK AND I GET 10-11 MPG MIXED DRIVING.
HOW ABOUT YOU GUYS?
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Mike Schallmann
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#595998 - 12/19/01 07:35 AM
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I have Cackle/Idle knock and get 12 mpg empty in town 18 highway empty and 12 towing 8.5+K.
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coldair
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596010 - 12/19/01 07:59 AM
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before the on set of cackle I was getting 19 city and 22 highway, 14 towing, with the lift and tires. now I get 12.5 the best and 7 towing. sometimes the knock is so bad I had a woman yank her child back from the side of my truck she thought something was about to blow up.
Ford can't fix it so I have to pay to fix it myself.
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DZacc
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596111 - 12/19/01 09:44 AM
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My mileage dropped 25% from one year ago when the truck was new. I will be fixing the problem with the 'kit'.
One more concern is emissions. If we are getting poor mileage then the emissions must also be up. In my opinion this is the only way we will be able to get Ford to fix the cackle/knock problem.
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FMTRVT
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596193 - 12/19/01 10:46 AM
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Another PMT2 with factory installed knock ..........
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596263 - 12/19/01 11:49 AM
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So if enough of us have this, why wont ford\ navistar fix are trucks?
They know they have a problem and there is a kit out there that will make it right, So why is ford \ navistar not getting the kits and fixxing the cackle \ knock \ bad fuel mpg problem?
we are what make or brake there truck sales.
Is this a problem in the T444E or just the power stroke?
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596271 - 12/19/01 11:54 AM
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COLDAIR :so you didnt have a cackle problem and it some how showed up? And when it did you lost mpg and power.
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coldair
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596343 - 12/19/01 12:57 PM
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Dave that is excatly right, around 1500 miles it started knocking like a bad lifter or a bent rod, the fuel mileage and performance went to hell. Two things make me mad, #1 Ford's refusal to make it right, # 2 when people say its supposed to sound this way, I have 4 psd's and two of them are quiet and mine is super noisy, when someone tells me its supposed to make that noise I tell them that they need to fix my other ones so they are no so quiet . you should see the look on their face when I tell them that, you would have thought that I had pissed on their foot or something.
Edited by coldair (12/19/01 01:58 PM)
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Rickie
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596363 - 12/19/01 01:31 PM
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I got 16.5 mpg last winter, hoping for more this year after being broken in. Last summer, I got 17.5 mpg average. Towing last summer was 12.3 mpg.
I have the idle knock and "intermittent" cackle. Some days it is very loud and some days it is not.
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#596374 - 12/19/01 01:40 PM
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well i just bought this 99 and my 95 that i had 250 with 3:55 gears (it left today) sorry to say, ran rings around this 99.
but it did not cackle and it did not have a idle knock,and it also got 14+mpg.
i took the 99 in to ford for the LL#8 injector and the fuel pressure update thinking at 11 mpg i had nothing to lose but i was wrong the first tank after the update i got 10.0 mpg and it still knocks and it still cackles so now what?
we need to prove that a cackle truck is worse on emissions. Then we have a leg to stand on to get it fixed by ford\navistar.
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Chris Quarterson
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#597685 - 12/20/01 06:58 PM
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Has anyone done a side by side dyno comparison of a cackler vs a non-cackler? I think that two identical trucks side by side would be the definitive proof as to what effects cackle has on these engines.
JMO
Chris
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#597789 - 12/20/01 09:14 PM
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Chris : my truck runs like a 6.2 chevy with 3:55 gears, I know the cackle is killing the power and mpg
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Apollo
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#597790 - 12/20/01 09:15 PM
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I'm not sure if my engine has cackle or not. This is my first diesel and the first powerstroke I've been around. It does sound like I might have the idle knock sometimes when it's cold. I left Atlanta this morning heading to my parents house in Mississippi, 340 miles. I checked my mileage when I got here. I got 22.5 miles per gallon. I was driving around 70 most of the way.
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Traildust
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#597815 - 12/20/01 09:42 PM
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Diesel Dave 99 is exactly right! The only way to make Ford/International stand up and pay attention is to somehow get EPA in on this. My only fear would be Ford's approach to a fix driven by an EPA mandate, they would cut fuel delivery and detune the crap out of an aleady detuned engine.
Traildust
Edited by Traildust (12/20/01 09:49 PM)
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#598028 - 12/21/01 06:59 AM
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I dont think they can cut my fuel much more and still have it run.
if i get on it hard it will not smoke, Not even a little nothing at all.
And when i put in the K&N filter it made no diff. at all, I guess adding more air when there is not enough fuel in the first place just is not going to help make power.
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#598029 - 12/21/01 07:02 AM
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MY ? IS if my fuel is cut back so far that it has no power and i cant get it to smoke why do i get such bad fuel mpg?????
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Pat Dolan
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599638 - 12/23/01 12:43 AM
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Dave:
Its not just a matter of having the fuel, but burning it properly and at the right time. The high EGT's and low MPG's of PSD tell you that all is not well accross the board. A cackle-pig is evidence that more than wrong time is the going on. I have had cackle and knock since day one and my mileage stays down in the gutter no matter what. I am getting a bit tired of pouring the fuel into the tank for nothing.
Season's Greetings ... Pat
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DieselRay
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599666 - 12/23/01 02:05 AM
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Anybody concerned with this issue should read this link. I don't have a cackle but after reading all these posts about it I went looking for the kit. Its starting to make sense. This is the only engine that Uses the HEUI system isn't it. The Duramax and Cummins don't use it. Nobody has heard of a similar issue with those engines have they?
http://www.diesel-central.com/News/oil_pump.htm
2002 PSD F-250 Ext Cab 4x4 (4000 miles)
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599691 - 12/23/01 05:18 AM
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IM with ya on the tank is aways emty.
it would not be so bad filling the tank if you had all the power it was sapposted to have.
It sucks not having power and on top of that not haveing any milage to boot!
I gave up on ford and their ( well sir were working on it )
Im looking into the kit.
I bought my truck used with 45,000 miles, I guess if I had bought it new I would have more of a leg to stand on with ford, all i have is the 5 year 100,000 mile warranty.
I dont know much about the kit but if the man has a fix for this 99 super fuel guzaling high dollar no power piece of s--t power joke diesel, he has my vote!!
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TexasTowncar
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member
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599724 - 12/23/01 08:34 AM
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Chris,
I have done close to what you have suggested. My wrecked '00 didn't have the crackle problem (see sig). When I dyno'ed it last spring it consistantly got 188 rwhp at 2000 rpms and 170 rwhp at 1500 rpms. After break-in it always got 'good' mileage, 19 to 20 mpg empty on highway.
On Friday I got back from a 1500 mile trip with the new '02 (see sig), it got 15.4 mpg hwy pulling a 32' enclosed car trailer and 20.4 mpg empty an the return home. Most of the driving was at 2000 rpms (68 mph).
However, the '02 has the 1500 to1700 rpm crackle when running at normal temperatures. It was very distinct when I had to slow down to 50 to 52 mph in traffic and ran that way for about 30 miles. First time I heard the motor do that. I don't usually drive at 50 to 52 mph and I seldom let the motor operate in the 1500 rpm range even when going through the gearing.
I own a shop that maintains a small fleet of charter buses. I we used our dyno as part of preventive maintenance program for the fleet. The dyno seems to be accurate when comparing the rwhp of ours to the dyno at Detroit Diesel. Our 8v71 when operating show between 220 and 230 rwhp.
Anyway, after changing the oil on '02 PSD yesterday I ran it on the dyno for about 100 miles. First to get it warmed up and check for leaks. Then to test the rwhp at various rpms. Results;
1200 rpm 144 rwhp
1400 rpm 165 rwhp
1600 rpm 180 rwhp
1800 rpm 189 rwhp
2000 rpm 196 rwhp
2200 rpm 202 rwhp
First run; There was no crackle and each rpm was held for three minutes. I also started this testing with a full tank (to the neck).
Then I ran the truck at 2000 rpms for about 30 mins and the rwhp flunctuate between 193 and 196 rwhp.
Then I ran the truck at 1400 rpms for 5 minutes. It started to crackle after about 45 seconds and the rwhp dropped to 156 rwhp during the crackle. The crackle stopped after another 30 seconds and the rwhp returned to normal (164).
Then I ran at 1500 rpms and the crackle started almost immediately and the rwhp dropped to 154 rwhp and fluctuated with 2 rwhp for the next 3 mins.
Then I ran at 1600 rpms and the crackle continued and rwhp remained in the 154 range. It ran like that for 3 mins. It seemed that the motor stumbled a couple of times but I couldn't see it on the dyno output.
I raised the rpm 1700 and the crackle cleared up. The rwhp returned to normal (184).
During the 101 mile test the truck used 5.8 gallons of fuel.
We are going to take the pump off the wrecked '00 and put it on '02 today. Same tuned for the results.
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FMTRVT
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599734 - 12/23/01 08:54 AM
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TexasTowncar,
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have to stop, there are tears on my keyboard...
I have wanted to do this, but do not have access to a dyno. My highway mileage has never been as good as yours (17.6 mpg avg / 72 mph runs) and I am not that aggressive in accelerating.
"Then I ran at 1600 rpms and the crackle continued and rwhp remained in the 154 range. It ran like that for 3 mins. It seemed that the motor stumbled a couple of times but I couldn't see it on the dyno output."
Yep, mine does that too ocassionally.
Have you checked the fuel pressure at idle and during the dyno run? Also, which pump are you talking about replacing?
Also, what part of the country are you located at?
Don't tell my wife, but this may be my best Christmas present. Now I have this along with the card from the doctor to carry around that says I'm not insane.
Jack
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599755 - 12/23/01 09:58 AM
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Hi Jack,
Checking the fuel pressure would be a good idea. I did that to the '00 last spring, My notes indicate that the fuel pressure was 63 psi. But I think we will check it again. The wreck '00 still starts and runs good. We also can put it back on the dyno when my nephew comes with the wrecker this morning.
I also will check the fuel pressure on '02 before we start changing anything. We can also check the fuel pressure on his wrecker, it has 444TE motor.
I thought after reading the Kim Lux article about the high pressure oil pump that that might be part of the crackle problem. I really don't have the tools to test the pump in the truck, at least I don't think I have. I planned on bench testing both the '00 and the '02 pumps for pressure and volume to see if there is a difference.
Then install the '00 pump in the '02 and re-dyno.
I'll post the results
Doug - Happy Holidays from Far South Texas
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coldair
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599815 - 12/23/01 11:42 AM
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Texas, do you have access to pollution monitioring equipment? can you set the cackler up on the dyno and check out the emmisions?
yesterday I had to make a flip flop run and pick up my daughters jeep, "leaking transmission", at 75 mph run up got 11.37 miles per gallon empty on the way back with the jeep on a car hauler I got 7.2 mpg. At every truck stop I made a point to listen to the other trucks and not one sounded like mine some a faint knock mine has the cackle knock so bad it sounds like a bad lifter, a very sharp clack no the low knock of the cummings, this knocker is way louder then the even the old style psd's. needless to say I am very disgusted with the performance of the engine, the rest of the problems I can fix later, although I am not too crazy about spending 5000 for brakes.
to Texas and all those working on making Ford fix their problems I greatly apprecaitive, keep up the good work.
for the doubting thomas's I will meet you anywhere within 500 miles so you can see how bad the problem is first hand.
mike
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Chris Quarterson
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#599840 - 12/23/01 12:34 PM
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This is obviously some sort of fuel delivery/timing issue. The knock sounds like an injector knock I had one on my 6.9 and it sounded like bad rod bearings). Why is it so elusive for Ford/Navistar to locate and fix this? I would think an injector rework or a programming change would be all thats needed. I also find it interesting that some of these trucks come from the factory with the cackle and some develop it after awhile; why?
This brings me to another point, has anyone made their cackler better with a chip or PPIII, or perhaps different injectors? All of the above would seem to alter the parameters that would affect knock/cackle, but by how much?, enough? anyone tried?
I have noticed that my 01 makes more combustion noise at 1500-2000 rpm than it did over the summer or for that matter last winter. I'm not sure if its the winter blend or if this is the starts of something like cackle. I have no knock. I'm going to try a double dose of stanadyne next tankful to see if that makes any difference.
Chris
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desertdrifter
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600039 - 12/23/01 05:14 PM
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Interesting. . . . I have been lurking (while recovering from an operation) and a member for some time. Just last week I took my truck (25,000 miles) to the local Ford dealer for the so-called #8 injector fix. I have also been getting 19 or so mpg in town and 22 on the road.
I can say that the truck is so much quieter that my wife thinks they put a new engine in it. But fuel mileage I don't know yet. Have to wait a few tank fulls to get that answer. It has more power than it had.
The truck is basic stock and I'll probably keep it that way until the end of the warranty. But will start pulling the tag along as soon as the Dr says O.K.
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600144 - 12/23/01 08:13 PM
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Hello All,
Here is what we know so far.
I tested the fuel pressure on the '02 and it ran at 58 psi. I retested the fuel pressure on the '00 and it ran at 62 psi.
We removed the high-pressure oil pump from both trucks and after making an adapter to feed the oil to the inlet, both pumps were run at 360 rpms as suggested in the Kim Lux article. The '00 pump would hold and maintain 3050 psi while pumping about a quart a minute. The '02 pump would hold at 2925 psi and pump at the same volume. Both pumps pumped smoothly. Kim is right, you don't want to attempt this without the proper equipment. We didn't disassemble either pump.
I installed the '02 pump on the '00 while my nephew installed the '00 in the '02.
We reran the dyno test as I described before on the on the '02 and had pretty much the same results. After the motor is warmed up, it crackles some at 1400 rpms, crackles consistently at 1500 rpm and looses power, about 15 rwhp and then returns to "normal operation" at a little over 1700 rpms.
During the crackle, my nephew used stethoscope in an attempt to isolate the source of the crackle. Sounded like it was isolated to cylinder 6. We could be wrong about that.
Tomorrow we plan to retest the '00. We also plan to connect a 4 channel scope to the electrical connectors on the injectors. The intent is to examine the injector timing and pulse widths for both the crackle and non-crackle condition. After hearing the crackle it sounds like pre-detonation (spark knock). Could be a signal problem or it could be a hydraulic problem.
I also plan to build a little circuit board that I can use to delay the pulses and also narrow and widen it if necessary. If the pulses look "normal width" and are spaced evenly, then it is probably not a signal timing problem, but a hydraulic problem.
It may take a day or two to do all this but I'll post my findings.
Coldair;
I don't have access to emission testing equipment.
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diesel dave 99
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Member
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600450 - 12/24/01 07:15 AM
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Well i just had my truck in for the #8 injector also, It dont sound any different it dont have any more power It still cackles and it still has a idle knock and it was getting 11.25 mpg and now is getting 10.02 mpg.
Just for the heck of it i timed my truck from 0-60 mph it took18,45 sec. that is pidifull if you ask me, My stock 95 psd with 3:55 rears did 0-60 in 9.48 sec.I feel like i bought an f-350 with a briggs& stratton!!!
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SG303c
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600571 - 12/24/01 12:00 PM
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TexasTownCar
You da man! This is the kind of info we need. Have you thought about hooking up 8 egt's and measuring exhaust temp at each cylinder while do your dyno run. I don't know enough about diesels to know if this will work but on a gasser we can tell which one is rich/lean/miss-firing, etc. This probably won't tell you whats causing the problem but it will prove something is happening during combustion. just a thought. Keep up with your testing and posting.
Merry Christmas All
Jim
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600788 - 12/24/01 06:59 PM
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Hello Again,
We continued to sort out this crackle problem. If you haven't been following along you should probably read my earlier posts to this thread.
We started this morning by retesting the '00 on the dyno as we have done in the past. We ran clean, no crackle.
I connected a 4 channel scope to the injector leads on the left hand bank and monitored the signals at the injectors. Ran the motor at 1400, 1500 and 1600 rpms. The signals looked clean and pulses were nicely shaped. Of course, this is the motor that DOESN'T crackle. I also checked the signal from the CPS (cam position sensor) to the IDM (injector driver module) and that signal look pretty good, not as clean as I would have liked.
I also had an OBDII scanner connected and was monitoring for misfires, injector duty cycle, injector oil pressure, and injector fuel pressure. These values all seemed to be normal according to the service manual.
Next, I repeated the test on '02 following the same steps of the dyno test that I have done before. When the motor was warm and running at 1500 rpms, the crackle started. The signals from the IDM to the injectors appeared "noisy", and the pulse width was wider and the width of the pulse fluctuated. The worst signal appeared to be on cylinder 6. The signal from the CPS wasn't as clean either.
We stopped the test and placed .047 uf capacitor across the injector leads. That cleanup and rounded out the signal to injector #6. It also reduced the crackle, but didn't eliminate it. Tried a .01 uf cap and that reduced the crackle too. I am sure that the ringing in the signal is due to the high reluctance of the injector coil. The question is how to reduce the ringing.
Anyway, my nephew suggest the we swap IDMs. That almost eliminated the crackle on the '02. We also decided to swap the CPS and that eliminated the crackle. We ran it for over 30 mins back and forth through the 1500 rpm range, no crackle.
We decided to test the '00 with the '02s IDM and CPS. Quess what? Crackle!!!
We decided to leave the '00 on the dyno, it doesn't have a hood or front fenders, so it is easier to work on. Besides I want to run the '02 for a day or two to see if the crackle re-appears.
Before you all go running out the door, let me caution you, I fixed this one. I am not sure that this is the fix for everybody.
There apparently is a tolerance problem with the IDM and it also looks like a tolerance problem with the CPS. I need to learn more. I also need a copy of the PCM code.
I'll contact Ford on Wednesday. Stay tuned.
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600805 - 12/24/01 07:37 PM
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QUESTION do the (IDM) have the same part # on them?
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600848 - 12/24/01 08:50 PM
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Short answer - YES
Are they the same engineering change # , I don't know. It is not list on either part. It is not listed in the service manual. As I mentioned, there is still a lot to learn. Hopefully Ford will cooperate and give me the information that I need to verify that this is the problem and that getting a properly spec'ed part(s) will solve the problem.
Edited by TexasTowncar (12/24/01 09:03 PM)
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rushr
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#600973 - 12/25/01 12:41 AM
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Maybe you should reproduce your positive results by installing the known good IDM and CPS in another truck such as Diesel Dave 99 which has an extreme case of cackle/knock/bad fuel mileage. He has tried Fords fix to no avail so if this cured his problems that would be incredible and hard to refute.
The only downside is you may not get your parts back.
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601035 - 12/25/01 08:03 AM
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We will be getting another PSD to try this fixed on on Friday. An acquaintance of my brother has a '01 with what sounds like a severe crackle problem. I spoke with him last night and he has been to Ford several times with the problem and had no success. We will see if he has the same problem and attempt to fix it.
I am hoping that I can get more parts by then and test them.
Stay tuned.
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T_Bone
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601146 - 12/25/01 12:25 PM
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Hi TexasTowncar,
I've been reading thease threads for over a year and wanted to tell you that what you have said in four or five posts has been more "fact" to finding out why the PSD cackle/knocks than all the other posts put together. Thank you for your time and effort and the use of several thousand dollars worth of testing equipment.
From what it sounds like, Fords going to give you several different revisions of the same part numbers of the IDM and CPS and hopefully they still make the revision you are working with but that may not be likely.
Maybe a consideration should be given to putting a .045uf cap accross the output leads of the IDM and CPS to smooth the ringing? Or maybe a variable cap would work equally as well.
Now guys and gals of the BBS is what we need to help TT with:
"I'm talking donation here!!!"
To be donated without expecting any more from TT that He's already given. The information TT has already supplied is far more advanced than everything else thats ever been posted. I would like to see TT continue with His research and thats not a free ride folks.
TT, please post an address to where I can send my donation.
Thanks again TT and Merry Christmas All
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KB
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601225 - 12/25/01 03:31 PM
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TexasTowncar
Thanks for all the work checking things and proving what I have been feeling. It has been posted before by others that the cackle has either been cured or at least deminished when the IDM was changed. (usually for another reason) Bad thing is, the cackle usually came back. One thing you are doing is changing both the CPS and the IDM at once. Working electronics for over 20 years I have seen it were if you have several parts working together, both parts are good separately but, together both are bad. Changing only one part at a time causes the remaining 'bad' part to mess the new part up. Then changing the other part, the other 'new' part messes the newest part up and you go round in circles till you throw two new parts at it at once. I also would also suggest going to the 94-97 section and get a hold of 'Joe Servo' he seems to have alot of knowledge about the IDM and how it ticks.
Bruce
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Roadagent
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601263 - 12/25/01 04:45 PM
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TexasTowncar:
"I also plan to build a little circuit board that I can use to delay the pulses and also narrow and widen it if necessary. If the pulses look "normal width" and are spaced evenly, then it is probably not a signal timing problem, but a hydraulic problem. "
I know that Pat Dolan and others have questioned the return less fuel system and no I don’t have an answer why on a PSD diesel?. I have very limited knowledge on diesels. Very limited knowledge period.
The mfg’s thoughts on the return less fuel system on gasser were primarily for emission purposes. The fuel gets hotter & hotter on hot days and raised some serious evaporative emission problems and some safety issues. They also attained longer (or hope to) fuel pump life with a pulse width modulated pump
There are some concerns that have reared their ugly head on the gassers that use this return less system. Chrysler ( sorry Jim ) seems to be having the problem more so than other mfg’s. The problem is fuel cavatation in the end of the fuel rails. The fist symptom seems to be a minor and hardly noticeable loss of power. As this problem gets worse the vehicle still seems to run pretty darn good, but then eventually will set the MIL/Check money light. When doing a scan test you find engine misfire codes? Engine seems to run fine Smoove idle …..Smoove free rev @ 2500 …Hmmm?. You put the vehicle on an ignition scope and everything looks fine min/max firing kV burn time, spark kV. Hmm what gives? The tech then throws a set of plugs in it takes it for a ride seem fine re/check and no code and ships it. Two weeks later the customer is back with the MIL/Check money light on :>(
Scan the PCM and Wala! More misfire codes? Now the tech scratches his head in disbelief. Now ready to throw the towel in he realizes that the misfire code are always the same cylinder misfire counters and that those misfire counters are the cylinders that are at the end of both the fuel rails. As the fuel pump becomes marginal the cavatation becomes worse the Crank sensor sense the irregular pulses on those cylinders and set the MIL/Check money light.
On the PSD could this same scenario be the Cackle/knock problem?
Food for thought ? Monitor the ICP with a GMM and record it along with the fuel pressure. At the same time current ramp your injectors with your lab scope and a low amp probe.
Checking just the voltage waveform may not show a hydraulic problem.
The ringing in the injector you talk about is common on some gassers. I see your familiar with that issue and have caped the injector to stop the ringing with some positive results. The same results have not been seen in gassers to my knowledge. I have never seen where ringing effects the drivability on a gasser…. yet.
Today’s a new day. :>)
My thinking on diagnosing this problem and using another piece of ammunition ( current ramping ) could be way out of line but here goes.
By using a low amp probe and current ramping the injectors. In the injector current ramping waveform, your going to see more or the information that you might be looking for is what I’m thinking? With current ramping your are still going to see your injector on time but the added benefit of being able to see where the injector pintle is opening in the wave form, the REAL INJECTOR OPENING TIME. The gull wing effect in the waveform as the injector ramps up, is where the magnetic field is being broken as the pintle passes thru the field and creates this effect in the waveform. When your looking at the 8 injectors at one time on a lab scope it should reveal that the gull wing/dip on the ramp up of all 8 injectors be at the same height in the waveform at the same R’sPM ®. For instance you can have injectors that are fine as far as the electro side is concerned, but the mechanical side is not for whatever reason (maybe hydraulic for whatever reason). Lets say the injector pintle is stuck solid, the current ramp up looks fine except for the fact their is no gull wing/dip on the ramp current ramp up) and on the other hand the voltage waveform looks good in some cases.
I have seen low current ramping wave form patterns on injectors on a lab scope, that when looking at all the injectors on the lab scope you can see that the height of the gull wing/dip in the ramp up varies in height from one cylinder to another (pintles intermittently hanging in the injectors, with little or no apparent effect on the drivability of the vehicle at that point and time but yet you can see it on the scope using this method. You can actually watch the pattern as the gull wing/dip varies up and down on only one injector.What your seeing is the pintle sticking in that injector causing this (in the case of the PSD hydraulic pressure problems).
My thinking is that if the problem is on oil pressure related side, that as the pressure varies either high or low or cavitate’s for whatever reason as the oil pressure varies your going to see this variation in the height/time of the gull wing/dip in the pattern as the pintle opens and be able to help isolate this problem as to being hydraulic or not?
Keep in mind I ride desk for the most part and certainly claim to be no diesel tech by any stretch.
Happy hunting.
Just some food for thought.
Happy Holidays .
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601423 - 12/25/01 09:58 PM
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T-Bone; I certainly appreciate your words of support. At this time I would like to pursue my findings with Ford and have them pony up some parts and technical information. I would also like anyone else so inclined to repeat the changes that I made to verify if the CPS and IDM are the problem or part of the problem. As I mentioned earlier, we get a chance to work on a "bad crackler" on Friday. That will give us another data point.
The variable cap is a good idea, I just need to find one that will handle 120v and 8 amps. I'll be calling a supplier in Houston tomorrow.
KB;
Your comment is interesting. I hadn't heard that other had successfully reduced or eliminated crackle by replacing the IDM. I am sorry to hear that it wasn't a permanent fix. Hopefully, I have enough data on the IDM and CPS signals to compare non-crackle with crackle, if my '02 starts crackling again. I suspect that the parts that cause crackle would pass Ford's test marginally. That is why I would like to know their test specs, so that I can repeat the test.
I have experienced the same problems with replacing components over the last 35 years as an electrical engineer. In this case I am working without a net, incomplete information.
I will attempt to contact Joe.
Roadagent;
Thank for the additional insight. I understand your point about the change in reluctant when the pintle moves causing a change in the current. I'll try that tomorrow.
I have measured the fuel pressure on both motors and they are both at the high end of the specified range. The gage is mechanical and would probably miss sudden changes in the pressure. I thought about using an electronic pressure sensor with the scope to looking for erratic pressure changes in the fuel gallery, but I need to get a good pressure transducer. Another thing to call about tomorrow.
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Roadagent
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601566 - 12/26/01 08:29 AM
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TexasTowncar:
Just got my first cup of brew this a.m.an a light came on. Duhhhhh
I know you seen lots of noise in the signals on the lab scope and also mentioned the ' ringing injectors" Hhhmmmmm?
What about excessive a/c voltage skewing the signals juuuusst enough?
Or maybe the IDM seeing the excessive a/c voltage over a period time takes it's toll on the IDM or the PCM ?
Just some food for thought.
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AJ'sDad
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601665 - 12/26/01 11:41 AM
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Texas Towncar,
Have you signed Kim's NDA and gotten his take on what causes cackle?
I did, and it makes sense to me. His fax# is 403-210-1280.
I faxed him and received my NDA the next day. I then received the "cackle kit" information the following day.
He is not impossible to reach as some people have claimed. I've also spoken to him on the phone several times. (He's harder to reach by phone and he also admits that he doesn't check his email often enough.)
What he has to say makes perfect sense to me.
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Robyn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601816 - 12/26/01 03:32 PM
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Texas Towncar,
No offense to AJ's Dad, but I hope you don't sign the NDA. It is a shame to see all frank discussion of the "cackle" netted and sown up within the confines of one man's NDA.
Thanks for posting the results of your testing, Texas Towncar. I'll bet it is really appreciated by many members and non-members alike who read this board. You have certainly brought a breath of fresh air to this popular, yet stalemated topic.
The old adage printed on my neighbor shop's dyno says "Test, Don't Guess". So, since you are doing just that, why bother taking someone else's word for it, especially when you have some capability to verify facts on your own?
It would be nice to continue this discussion on the cackle, without it having to revolve around Kim Lux. Can we just have one meaningful and informative cackle thread among ourselves, without his name and all the baggage that comes with it being dragged into topic... once again? After all, there are two other concurrent threads on these forums that discuss KL, and there is a whole 'nuther website with forums available where he holds court with a free hand to discuss his business plans. If I want to read about KL, I'll go to that other website. What I am looking for here, on this website, is a place to read about "cackle" without having to read about KL. So far, that has been hard to do.
Well, how about it? In this one little thread, can we keep it about Texas Towncar, and his tests?
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mcbreth
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601827 - 12/26/01 03:51 PM
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I agree wholeheartedly with Robyn.
TT, Thank You for your hard work. This is the first reasonable and quantified research I have seen on cackle in my (albeit short) tenure on this site.
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AJ'sDad
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601830 - 12/26/01 03:54 PM
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Robyn, why would you, or anyone, not want to learn more about cackle?
You obviously seem to care, but you are encouraging others not to listen to the ONE person who has stated he has a FIX for the cackle?
Ignoring someone who claims to have solved the problem is ignorant. I hope you're speaking from emotion and rethink what you just said.
I agree with you though that mentioning the cackle kit does stir up a lot of emotion among some people. That's why I went and found out what Kim had to say about it so I could make up my own mind about whether or not he has the solution.
I encourage everyone to LEARN ALL THEY CAN about cackle, including Kim Lux's findings and others.
Please don't let emotion and "feelings" get in the way of the learning process.
I'm not going to say "Kim has solved it, but I can't tell you how." Instead I encourage everyone to sign the NDA and get the information so you can LEARN, LEARN, LEARN!!!
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T_Bone
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601882 - 12/26/01 05:18 PM
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For crying outloud AJ DAD, Theres four or five running post that doesn't go anywhere with the KL, BullS***. If you want to ruin a good thread we got going here just mention KL. Let the other posts take care of KL and let this one go to Texas Towncar.
Atleast He's not hiding his research and not trying to hold people up for $500 for his time and effort nor requiring the secret handshake to get dribbles of info from a NDA.
I agree with the others, go to the other website if you like KL info.
TT has made more progress towards solving the problem than any other " POSTED" info! PERIOD!
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zocalo
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601886 - 12/26/01 05:25 PM
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To answer the original question of ALL cacklers getting bad milage, I don't know. Mine has poorer milage when accompanied with the knocking sound. I have tried some cackle relievers to date, and although improvements have been noted, they have not been as effective as some would have liked. However, I think that Texas Towncar may have tested his way through a coupled component relationship that bears further investigation. Its nice to see that you have much of the correct equipment required to test out the very things you suspect. A rare blessing indeed. Thanks for the enlightenment on the IDM/CPS. Its was quite interesting to read your accouting of the troubleshooting and problem elimination process. I look forward to reading about your future findings. If possible, could you post what ford thinks its specification tolerances are on the CPS and IDM. I am particularly interested in who manufactures the CPS (since I have already experienced the downside of this component) and what the manufacturers part number is. If you can get big F's cooperation, that information may be non-shareable, in which case disregard my request.
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AJ'sDad
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601892 - 12/26/01 05:29 PM
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T_Bone, easy there big fella, we're all on the same side here!!
It's not about "this" information versus "that" information, it's about people learning everything possible.
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Robyn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601896 - 12/26/01 05:36 PM
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AJ's Dad:
After reading your post about being "emotional," I went back and re-read my post. Huh? I don't see the "emotion" in it. I thought I was rather matter of fact: I'd like to read about cackle... without reading about Kim Lux. Plain and simple.
Considering the many other posts, threads, websites, and NDAs available where one can "LEARN, LEARN, LEARN" about Kim, I'd just like to read a different perspective about the cackle for a change. Kim is easy to find, after all, you even posted his fax number. What is not so easy to find are objective test results, which it seems Texas Towncar is trying to obtain.
In this thread, we were cooking along just fine, and then Kim Lux gets brought up again. I think we have covered Kim Lux extensively over the last couple of years. Without emotion, I wish to dismiss (I'll accept "ignore") the cloud of KL that hangs over every cackle discussion, and move on.
Not quite two million Powerstrokes have been manufactured so far. If a cackle problem does exist, and persists after Ford's #LL8 fix, then the odds are pretty high that more than just "ONE" person will find the problem, and find a solution as well.
So, back to Texas Towncar's tests....
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KB
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601910 - 12/26/01 05:52 PM
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TexasTowncar
The term 'injector ringing' you mean a fuzzy signal instead of a nice clean one right? Assuming that is what you mean, did you lose the ringing after changing the IDM or the CPS? I ask because I cann't find common wiring for the two. (other than the PCM) I wonder if the shielding for the injector wires is weak or a bad ground and are inducing signals. The ground for the shields are all tied together and go in the IDM on pin 18.
Bruce
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AJ'sDad
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601922 - 12/26/01 06:17 PM
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Robyn, I understand.
My "emotion" comment was meant to be a general statement.
I hope no one becomes close-minded because of the petty bickering that has occurred in other threads.
Back to the testing......
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David C
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#601942 - 12/26/01 06:47 PM
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related to the apparent relationship of the CPS and IDM swaps, and cackle following.......
A lot of CPS units have been replaced per other threads ( I do not recall much mention of IDMs being replaced), so I ask of those who have replaced the CPS units and felt they had some amount of cackle -- has cackle increased, decreased, or no noticeable change just from the CPS replacement?
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602067 - 12/26/01 09:45 PM
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UPDATE i just filled up the tank again 225.6 miles on 23.2 gal you do the math
I cume up with 9.80
what a michine, WHAT A SHAME!!!
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602074 - 12/26/01 09:55 PM
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Well I made some progress on two fronts today, Ford and the crackle problem.
First the suggestion to monitor the current to the injectors. Roadagent was right you can see a change in the current when the pintle or plunger moves. I used channel 1 across the injector to trigger on voltage to the injector and used channel 2 with a current probe. The initial in rush current reached almost 6 amps, but immediately decayed to almost zero within .05 to .07 msec. Near the end of the decay there was a small negative current spike (approximately .01 to .015 msec). That made sense, there is back EMF when solenoid retracts. Then another negative current surge when the IDM dropped the voltage at the end of the pulse.
I tested injectors 2, 4, 6, 8 on the '02 motor without crackle first. The signals at each injector "looked" the same. Then we moved on to the '00 with crackle. I first tested injectors 2,4,6, and 8 when the motor was still cold (not warmed up). The signal looked the same. Then we let the motor warm up and ran it at 1500 rpms. At first it wouldn't crackle, then all of sudden it started crackling, it took about a minute to start.
However, the injector waveform didn't change, it looked the same. However, the pulse width widen as before, but the front end of the current wave didn't change.
An interesting point is that it appears that the PCM "recognized" the lose in RPM when the crackle started and attempted to feed more fuel to maintain the RPMs.
Unfortunately, I had to stop my experimenting and work on customer bus, so I didn't get much more done.
I was able to speak with the Ford rep today and convinced him that he should come to the shop to see what I had been doing related to the crackle problem. He's coming on Monday. I also got him to liberate some parts and they arrived late this afternoon.
Concerning the discussion about the Kim Lux fix, I would prefer not to get involved. I would prefer that we have an open exchange of information. My goal is to fix the problem and have Ford take responsibility for making the necessary changes. I have no desire to get in the business of manufacturing and distributing fixes. I hope that's OK with everybody.
I also mentioned Pat Dolan's (not by name) concern about the lack of fuel return from the fuel gallery. I mentioned a few of the possible short comes of this design. I suggested that I might want head drawings so that I could modify the head. The rep indicated that we could talk further on Monday.
KB;
The '00 with the crackle problem, the signal from the IDM to the injectors appears to be significantly underdamped compared to the "good" injector signal. The signal also appears noisy ahead of the actual injection pulse. I checked the shield grounds back to the connector on the IDM and they appeared to be grounded, zero resistance. I didn't check pin 18 on the IDM to ground, but I will.
The CPS signal feeds directly to the IDM and the PCM. I understood that the IDM uses the CPS signal directly for timing. On the crackler, the CPS signal is extremely noisy. Perhaps the IDM can't handle the noisy signal as well as the PCM can. That is a reason I would like part specs.
Anyway, I have parts to test. Stay tuned.
Edited by TexasTowncar (12/27/01 10:36 AM)
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ButcherGY54
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602088 - 12/26/01 10:11 PM
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diesel dave 99.
I have the same calibration code as you. Built 7/98. I get 12mpg City, 21-22mpg Highway. Empty bed. I wish you the best of luck in finding a fix. Let me know if I can be of help.
David
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nmn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602099 - 12/26/01 10:18 PM
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Thanks TT for the open discussion on the cackle issue. I know a few posters would rather you sign a NDA to shut you up about your research but what ever you do, don’t sign it.
That’s been the problem with open forums like this someone comes along and takes ideas and markets them to make money on others, and that’s OK, what's not OK is the Close minds of others that use the hidden treat of NDA. I just hope this tread continues without the rah,rah,rah of the NDA dude, open minded discussion is what this forum was designed for and what makes inventions great.
Keep up the good work.
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sdman
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602180 - 12/27/01 12:29 AM
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TT:
Are you using a digital scope, and do you have a way to extract the waveforms? It would be interesting to have a look at them. If you can send them to me, I can put them up on a webserver and post the link so all can see.
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KB
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602201 - 12/27/01 01:00 AM
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TT
Are you sure the CPS feeds directly to the IDM? My wiring book shows it coming out of pin 90 on the PCM through a couple splices that feed the MAP, Accelerator Position Sensor, EBP, ICP and CPS. These all seem to be a potentiometer type sensors with the other end of the fixed resistor ending up at pin 91 on the PCM. Except for the CPS which goes to the PCM pin 65. The variable side of these sensors all go to the PCM (CPS pin 21) All in connector C1027.
I would dig into this myself but if it isn't snowing to beat H..., its some where south of zero, or blowing at about 40-60 MPH here lately.
Bruce
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diesel dave 99
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602252 - 12/27/01 06:16 AM
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Butcher was a reflash done to yours?
i have the XLE8 now, when i had the XLE4 i was getting 11.0 mpg,But i had the flash shifting and i had them put in the LL #8 injector now it is realy bad on fuel.
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AJ'sDad
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602400 - 12/27/01 11:29 AM
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If you're implying that I want people to "shut up" about cackle, you're wrong.
GO, Texas Towncar, GO!!
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SG303c
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602414 - 12/27/01 11:57 AM
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TT
Ignore the negative posts, the other 98% of us are greatful and appreciative that you are posting what you are finding. It's great you got FORD involved but have you made a call to Navistar since they designed and built the engine.
Jim
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BlackTalon
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602426 - 12/27/01 12:35 PM
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What is the PCM and the IDM
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Wombat
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602458 - 12/27/01 01:19 PM
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BlackTalon:
PCM = Powertrain Control Module = the computer that runs the engine and I believe some other stuff on the truck
IDM = Injector Driver Module = the electrical/mechanical component that controls the firing of the injectors (I think that's right) ; also referred to as ICM = Injector Control Module
Please note that I am only certified (self-certified that is) as a shadetree mechanic. The real technical stuff I let a real mechanic do.
Texas Towncar and others: Thanks for the research and please keep the information coming.
Edited by Wombat (12/27/01 01:20 PM)
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Robyn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602494 - 12/27/01 02:04 PM
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KB,
I believe the circuit in common to Pin 90 of the PCM and the CPS(CMP), ICP, EBP, MAP, and AP is the V Ref voltage reference circuit. "The V-Ref circuit is a 5 +/-.5 volt power supply from the PCM that provides power to the three wire engine and vehicle sensors (of which the CMP/CPS is one) and provides a benchmark or reference voltage for the PCM."
Of the other two wires out of the CMP(CPS), you mentioned the one that goes to Pin 65 of the PCM. That is the Ground. The third circuit, the "frequency" circuit as Ford calls it, heads from the CMP/CPS to Pin 21 of the PCM.
As for the PCM's connection to the IDM via PCM Pin 91, that circuit is the signal return circuit... and grounds in common with the MAT, EOT, ICP, EBP, MAP, IAT, TRS, TSS, and the transmission.
As for the IDM connection to the CMP, you are right in that there is no direct wire link between the two components. The IDM does share three frequency signal circuits with the PCM, via Pins 48, 95, and 96 on the PCM, and Pins 4, 17, and 16 respectively on the IDM. Since the PCM is linked to both the CMP(CPS) and the IDM, the latter two are thus linked, but not directly.
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Superfly
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602516 - 12/27/01 02:35 PM
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Hey TT Keep up the good work and hope sombody can get this figured out. As i will be buying my First ford diesel and want to be a ble to have the cackle fixed if i get a cackler. Thanks TT Superfly
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602822 - 12/27/01 08:46 PM
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KB,
You're right, I miss read the scheme in the shop manual. There was also a paragraph in the manual that indicated that the CPS signal was used by the IDM, but it is wrong. Thanks for straighten me out.
That explains why the pulse width of the "fuel delivery command" signal varies at the input to the IDM.
I sent a scope trace to sdman so the he could post it on a website.
The parts, 2 CPSs and 2 IDMs, that I got from Ford test fine on the '00. The crackle stopped with both sets and the signal from the CPSs looked good and the outputs from the IDMs also looked good.
Tomorrow, a PSD with a "severe" crackle problem arrives. Stay tuned.
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H ED S
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602823 - 12/27/01 08:46 PM
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TT here is the story on my X. and I have ben reading on the development of the "kit" since before its inception.
My X ran fairly smooth when new. then started the hollow ringing idle knock and at times had the classic type knock. Previously I owned a 99 PSD with no knock or cackle, but another electronic problem that Ford either could not fix or refused to ?? Back to the X I got a steady 19 + mpg. Then I carried it to the dealer and the tech called the ford engeneering dept. and there was a new fix for the Xs manufactured between certain dates. it was to change out the IDM. Did it ever fix the problen and this was the only item changed out. It ran so smoth and quite you would have thought it was a gasser. I do believe you could have balanced a nickle on the high pressure oil pump cover. I got better than 21mpg for two tanks. In about 2,000 miles the rough idle came back and the milage dropped back to 18 to 19 mog. Also the hollow ringing knock is back. The PCM code does make a difference also. My X started shifting real bad - sort of like a old powerglide. Well we reflashed it and the new code is MQJO Fixed the shifting but I now get 12 to 14 mpg :). I have to get back over to the dealer and see abot this and the wiper motor recall. They have a super tech there and am going to see about the air box TSB also. Could something be making a circuit week in the IDM from the PCM or CPS though feeding it through the PCM ??
Just a little more data for you.
Ford may be trying to get enough data to force International to have to pay for the fix even though Ford changes a lot of the paramiters in their electronics.
- Ed
On Edit : I do know that as Kim would get one problem solved another would crop up . and he would fix it . The kits he has take about 6 to 8 hours to install. No I have not signed the NDA but have kept up with the info. on it for well over a yewa. He has had to make some of his test instrumentation and mechanical parts. A little background on this when he first started on this it was in an open topic like this and he was considering getting Ford to buy back his truck. Then eh decided to try and solve th problem as you are doing now . He then took all the info . and started to work on his product.
Man do I wish you success in your endevors. GOOD LUCK ! ! !
Edited by H ED S (12/27/01 09:02 PM)
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ButcherGY54
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#602856 - 12/27/01 09:11 PM
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diesel dave 99.
I had a new trans installed in 3/01. They reflashed the PCM in 5/01. Of course they did not put the new calibration code sticker on, so I do not know what code I have now. I will see if I can swing by the dealer and have them tell me what it is. I will also see if I can pull the cal. code with my Snap-On scanner.
David
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H ED S
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603038 - 12/28/01 12:28 AM
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David they should have put a sticker under the hood with a long number on it . They can convert this number into the four letter code . My sticker is on the fan shroud. I have no idea what my old code was because they tore the old sticker off the door jamb
- Ed -
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sdman
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603041 - 12/28/01 12:37 AM
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Here is the trace that TT sent to me:
and his explanation of what you are looking at:
"The top picture is no crackle at 1500 rpms, running on the dyno.
The bottom picture is crackle at 1500 rpms on the dyno.
Channel 1 is the voltage signal from the IDM to the injector at cylinder #5. I used that as a trigger because the firing order is 5 then 6. #6 seems to be the crackling cylinder in this case.
Channel 2 is the voltage signal at the injector on #6.
Channel 3 is the current signal at the injector on #6.
Note: under crackle the PCM advances the timing and widens the pulse. I think the PCM is trying to compensate for the lose of power when crackle occurs, hence the widen injector pulse.
Also notice that the signal of the crackling motor is noiser to begin with. The additional noise is there befor the crackle starts.
The current probe was roadagent's suggestion. If the small negative going pulse were to move in relation to the initial current surge when the injector was fired, that would indicate that the pintle or plunger might be hanging up. Indicating a possible hydraulic problem.
A hydraulic problem doesn't appear to exist on this motor anyway.
Thanks for posting the pictures."
I don't think the "ringing" you see on the tops of the voltage pulses is really significant, as the voltage excursions are not that great, and your current waveform has not changed.
What I find more interesting is the small voltage and current spike that takes place just before #6 fires. Could there be enough energy here to start a partial injection?
When you put the capacitor across the injector, maybe what you are doing is just filtering this spike out?
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Robyn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603107 - 12/28/01 04:20 AM
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What does the trace look like when the next cylinder fires... cylinder # 8? Is it possible to arrange the graph to show the pattern of 6 and 8, just like 5 and 6 are shown?
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FMTRVT
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603153 - 12/28/01 07:51 AM
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TexasTowncar, RoadAgent and sdman - Just have to say this is excellent work guys.
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603155 - 12/28/01 07:52 AM
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H ED S;
Thank you for the additional information. Sorry to hear that your X didn't stay fixed. So far, my '02 has not returned to crackling, but its only 200+ miles since I changed the CPS and the IDM out. I really haven't had time to take it out for a good run.
I have heard from others, similar stories to Kim's, fix one problem, another problem crops up. That seems to be the nature of these beasts with computer controlled engine management systems. My company consulted with Cat during the development of the EC for the 3116 motor. I worked on the project in the '93 and '94 time frame. So, I have an idea of what might be ahead if it is necessary to get into the PCM.
At this stage there are a lot of possibilities. The IDM electrical characteristics could be changing over time with the heating and cooling of the motor. The PCM could be detecting that change and attempting to compensate and cause the problem to be worst. Hard telling.
sdman;
The small current and voltage spike prior to the actual injector pulse concerned me too. It doesn't happen all the time when crackle is occurring. But I caught this one when I set the single sweep so that I could draw the trace. I couldn't see the little negative pulse that is an indication that the pintle or plunger moved, but doesn't mean that it didn't partially open, I just don't have a way to tell.
What concerns my more is the shift in the timing. The pulse is slightly earlier. Is that what should really happen? The non-crackler doesn't do that.
I am sure that the capacitor that I used across the injector did reduce that early pulse, in fact, I don't remember seeing it on the scope when the capacitor was in place. The capacitor also delayed the pulse to the injector.
Robyn;
I haven't looked at cylinder #8 with respect to #6, but I will today. I have an additional unused channel, so I'll connect it to #8.
Well, I just heard the "bad crackler" pull up. Got to run.
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frobozz
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603190 - 12/28/01 08:58 AM
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Wow, there's something seriously wrong, shown in those traces!
Even ignoring the wider/messier pulses, you definitely have significantly less time between the leading edge of the two pulses. The only way you can get less time between the leading edges is for the engine to be spinning faster. If the engine isn't spinning faster, that means the second came way too early (or the first one came way too late...but you say the stethoscope test pins the error on the #6 cylinder...) I agree that you need another injector on there, I would even go for two more and ditch the current measurement since that seems to show nothing out of the ordinary at the moment. If you can show 4 injectors in order but with the #6 "walking back" towards the #5, while the relationships of all the others are the same, that's a serious misfire problem!
It would be hard to show us here in still images, but I think watching the scope in real time would be very interesting as you revved it up slowly. Especially if you could catch it right on the edge of the problem. The 4 injector voltage pulses would all slowly compress together in time until the #6 one jumped back in relation to all the others - if you caught it on the edge, you could perhaps even see it jitter back and forth.
Then the next step would be to give up the 4th channel again and put it on, say, the CPS output. If that pulse went wrong in lockstep with the #6 pulse errors, then you have your culprit. If not, then on to the IDM. (How does the PCM talk to the IDM; if it's a one-for-one low-level input to high level output, then you could see if there's a mismatch between what the IDM is told to do and what it does...) If none of that shows anything, then you could have an input problem with whatever circuit is sensing the CPS...or it could be a software issue in the PCM!
(I've done a lot of embedded system hardware and software throughout the years - this is really making me want to buy a spare truck so I could build my own PCM and make the engine do whatever I wanted! Of course I also want to win the lottery, and I can't have the first without the second... It would have to be one of the new camless engines though so I could software control the valves, too...)
Duncan, temporarily slipping into microcontroller geek mode
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DZacc
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603294 - 12/28/01 11:17 AM
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2870 views on this thread and only 70 posts. It shows a lot of people are intensly intrested in this development but, like me, are overwhelmed by the technical aspects of what you guys are doing.
One question anyway:
Where is the spit shot injection shown on the graph? Could it be the small voltage surge prior to the injector firing?
DZ
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H ED S
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603303 - 12/28/01 11:29 AM
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TT I hate to post this , but my IDM is outside of the engine compartment . It is between the inner and outer wheel well on the drivers side. poor Albert had to take the running board off to change it out. It is a real PITA to get to.
Just remembered a good while back there were some that had the rough idle and knock and it turned out to be the valve cover gasket or the connector that went to where the wires went to the injectors.
Again GOOD LUCK and nothing but good on ya Bro. - Ed -
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frobozz
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603304 - 12/28/01 11:30 AM
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I probably shouldn't talk before the people that really know what they're doing chime in, but... I thought the split shot injection was handled mechanically by the design of the injector. It is actuated once, sending in two different sprays of fuel in a short period of time.
Duncan
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Sandman
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603307 - 12/28/01 11:35 AM
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Great work all! TexasTowncar, thanks..
My $0.02.. drove Big Rudy & the 5er from VA to WY (and back) last Sept. Big Rudy is a Y2K PSD 6sp born 3-00.. he ran smooth as silk and broke all mileage records for the first 10k.. then crackle..
I have found.. mileage does go down with crackle (support above findings) and the oil level plays a role.. If the engine began to crackle, I would pull into a rest area, let him cool down for a few min (at idle) then shut down and check the oil.. would top off the oil and just over fill (1/16 in over on dip stick) back on the road and he would smooth out for a couple of hours.
I know.. it sounds crazy but if I hadn't done it several times I wouldn't believe it either. I believe that I was masking a symptom and not fixing the problem, just want to let the folks doing all of the serious work of my experiances.
The oil idea came from the owner of a tricked out (had one of everything that Banks sells) 96 PSD in the next campsite, said he had been doing it for years.
Thanks again
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Roadagent
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603430 - 12/28/01 02:15 PM
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and his explanation of what you are looking at:
"The top picture is no crackle at 1500 rpms, running on the dyno.
The bottom picture is crackle at 1500 rpms on the dyno.
Channel 1 is the voltage signal from the IDM to the injector at cylinder #5. I used that as a trigger because the firing order is 5 then 6. #6 seems to be the crackling cylinder in this case.
Channel 2 is the voltage signal at the injector on #6.
Channel 3 is the current signal at the injector on #6.
Note: under crackle the PCM advances the timing and widens the pulse. I think the PCM is trying to compensate for the lose of power when crackle occurs, hence the widen injector pulse.
Also notice that the signal of the crackling motor is noiser to begin with. The additional noise is there befor the crackle starts.
The current probe was roadagent's suggestion. If the small negative going pulse were to move in relation to the initial current surge when the injector was fired, that would indicate that the pintle or plunger might be hanging up. Indicating a possible hydraulic problem.
TT is this a 3406e injector that you captured?
What are you using for a scope and are you using a LOW amp probe?
This looks nothing like I have ever seen ramped with a low amp probe.
What I dont understand is why in the wave form it drives straight up insted of ramping over time as it saturates the coil? But yet shuts down with a ramp when I would think it should drop like a hammer straight down.
I have a capture from a 3406ecurrent waveform that looks nothing like this at all. It was captured with a Fuke98 and a Bell labs i80 low current probe. Iwonder why such a difference? It ramps up as I suspected and shuts off and drops like a hammer striaght down.
The other thing I question is the voltage below 0 when the injector shuts
down ? On a gasser when you see this it's cut and dry a shorting injector.
I'll have to get back with you in a few days the Old ladys screeming at me to go out the door to go to Tenneessee for four days .
"i'll be back "
pardon all the typo's
I'm comming honey :>)
A hydraulic problem doesn't appear to exist on this motor anyway.
Thanks for posting the pictures."
I don't think the "ringing" you see on the tops of the voltage pulses is really significant, as the voltage excursions are not that great, and your current waveform has not changed.
What I find more interesting is the small voltage and current spike that takes place just before #6 fires. Could there be enough energy here to start a partial injection?
When you put the capacitor across the injector, maybe what you are doing is just filtering this spike out?
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Robyn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603599 - 12/28/01 06:36 PM
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DZacc and Frobozz (Duncan) raise a good point about the split shot. After all, prior to the split shot, there was no California Cackle... so the split shot technology ought to be in the line up with all the other suspects. I am glad this point was made.
Duncan is right of course, just one energized actuation of the injector solenoid, and the "split-shot" occurs mechanically within the fuel portion of the injector.
Which leads to my question...
How does the IDM, as controlled by the PCM, respond electrically to pressure fluctuations in the fuel rail? Is the FDCS modified in real-time in correspondence to fuel pressure fluctuations in the rail?
For clarification, "FDCS" stands for Fuel Delivery Control Signal, which is the signal that the PCM sends to the IDM to instruct it to fire. If the FDCS instructs the IDM when to activate which injector solenoid for how long, might a change in the FCDS make a corresponding change in the high voltage signal from the IDM to the injector... a corrective change in real time? That is one way I can imagine the CPS affecting the IDM, and is also one way that I am guessing the split shot fuel flow described below might be relevant.
Pressure fluctuations in the fuel rail (the fuel rail machined into the head, not an external supply rail) have been measured and recorded, right? When Coach Davis et al was busy measuring pressure spikes, they were measuring at the head port, right?
What is it then about the mechanical method of producing a split shot fuel delivery, that is consistent with fuel pressure fluctuation?
It being established that there are two vastly different fuel pressures... the pump produced line and rail pressure of the fuel supply, which ranges within a relatively low bracket of 30 to 100 psi, and then there is the intensifier piston produced fuel injection pressure, which ranges within a relatively high bracket of 2,100 to 21,000 psi... what happens when the high pressure is momentarily introduced into the relative vacuum of the low pressure?
Will a spike in the low pressure fuel rail signal a cue for a compensatory electronic action? Is there a case when the action-reaction cycle cannot keep pace, or is ahead of pace with actual conditions?
Split-shot within an injector mechanically occurs due to a gap in the fuel plunger, a plunger that was at one time solid, prior to split-shot. The plunger is both a piston and a valve, pushing fuel out as well as allowing fuel in, depending on its position. A solid plunger pushes fuel down creating high pressure, closing off the entry (and exit) of fuel from (or into) the supply rail. On the other hand, the split shot plunger (with a gap) starts to push fuel down, creating high pressure, but then, because of the gap in the plunger, it momentarily opens the high pressure fuel resident within the injector up to a low pressure port common to the rail. There are tiny channels in the lower part of the plunger that allow the fuel in the injector to escape back into the rail, where the pressure is lower. So, 2,100 to 21,000 psi fuel is momentarily sharing a common channel with 30 to 100 psi fuel. Which way is the fuel going to flow?
For those thinking that there should be a check ball to prevent the obvious backflow, yes there are check balls at the main injector inlet, but note that there is no check ball at the upper release port in the latest split-shot injector diagram supplied by International. The fuel flow arrows at the end of the first shot indicate fuel at high injector pressure flowing OUT of the injector INTO an upper rail port where the fuel is at the lower pump pressure. Furthermore, since some fuel has thus escaped to find pressure equilibrium, that is just that much less fuel to go into the cylinder, right? And, the high pressure has to ramp up again before the end of the injection process. The gap in the plunger is small, so very quickly, as the plunger continues down it's path, the escape hatch is closed off, pressure is redeveloped, and the second shot of the injection is completed.
I am not trying to second guess the merits of this design, I in no way qualified to even render an opinion. Besides, the new system obviously works, delivering adequate power to get the job done, while reducing smoke and emmissions. My question: Does what I assume to be these tiny rail pressure "spikes" induced by the injectors releasing high pressure fuel back into the rail between the first and second shot... have an effect on cackle that ultimately ripples through the electronic sensor action/reaction system... enough to be measured electrically? And, ultimately, does that mean it is possible to manipulate or contol such reactions electrically-- as a compensatory measure to a fuel flow and plunger characteristic that cannot be easily changed?
The same question stands for if the cackle is more to do with the fuel loss in the injector from having lost either a tiny amount of expected fuel between the shots, or having to re-ramp up pressure again (having released it momentarily) to complete the second shot, within the timing that the cylinder is alloted.
And, the same question stands for the long standing discussion about the fuel shock wave causing starvation in the rail.
Or, expanding on my comments above, the same question stands for where any injector in the "fill-stage" of operation expands the volume (hence the low pressure vacuum) of the rail, allowing more fuel out of an injector that is inbetween shots, more so than other injectors that are inbetween shots when the other three injectors common to the rail are not in the fill stage.
Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble in questions like this, but I have often wanted to discuss the specifics of the split shot process, since it is directly and unquestionably linked to the cackle, and to be quite honest, this is the first decent cackle thread that has come about in a long time... where there is an opportunity to get some openly shared feedback. I could be way off base here, but I would like to learn of any measurable corresponding links between the electrical signals being measured by TexasTowncar, and these split shot fuel flow dynamics.
Edited by Robyn (12/28/01 09:24 PM)
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frobozz
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603671 - 12/28/01 08:40 PM
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>> For clarification, "FDCS" stands for Fuel Delivery Control Signal,
>> which is the signal that the PCM sends to the IDM to instruct it
>> to fire. It is the signal that I am assuming is represented by the
>> graphs posted above.
Given the scale on the scope readout, I am assuming he's reading the voltage being sent to the injector solenoid, i.e. between the IDM and the injector. I am interested, if anyone has the diagrams, as to what the connections between the PCM and the IDM are. The IDM as I understand it is just a bunch of high voltage drivers with low voltage inputs, so that the logic levels available in the PCM can be turned into the 100V or whatever to drive the injectors. Bu is it a one to one mapping? Do you have 8 inputs which control 8 outputs? Or is there some sort of coded or multiplexed signal between the PCM and the IDM?
(Guess I should break down and buy those service CDs...)
Duncan
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603697 - 12/28/01 09:16 PM
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Yep, Duncan, you are right again.... High voltage on the scale. Definately IDM to individual injector, not FDCS. My mistake. But the FDCS is the trigger signal of that high voltage, so I'll correct my question a bit. Thanks! Actually, if the FDCS was digital, then that small portion of my question is moot.
As to 8 inputs/outputs from PCM to IDM: Nope, there are only three frequency function signal wires from the PCM to the IDM... as follows:
PCM pin 96 to IDM pin 16 = CID
PCM pin 95 to IDM pin 17 = FDCS
PCM pin 48 to IDM pin 04 = EF (Electronic Feedback)
A fourth connection between the PCM and the IDM exists, and is the common signal return spliced and shared among several sensors...
PCM pin 91 to IDM pin 02 = Signal Return
No other wire exists from the PCM to the IDM, except vicariously through the IDM Relay...
PCM pin 80 to IDM RELAY "on" terminal, IDM RELAY then carries B+ voltage to IDM pin 14... supplying power to the IDM.
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603720 - 12/28/01 09:45 PM
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OK, so the PCM can turn the IDM off and on via a relay. Then there are three signal wires with names that don't really tell you how they work, plus a ground return. I'd love to know how they talk to the IDM over three wires - there are any number of schemes, but all of the ones I can think of seem risky for an under the hood environment. At least with the 8-in/8-out scheme you only lose one cylinder if an input wire breaks, and there's no clocking or timing or anything other than on and off.
Seeing as how TexasTowncar is devoting his 'scope to far more important pursuits, I may have to investigate what's going on on those wires myself at some point, just out of curiousity rather than thinking it really has anything to do with this problem.
As cool as I think the whole concept of a camless engine is, note that it will necessarily introduce another module (the VDM?) to drive the valve actuators from the PCM. Hey, but I guess it gets rid of the CPS, when you don't have a C to S the P of! (Obviously they'll have to substitute some sort of similar sensor on some other rotating part...)
Duncan
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603784 - 12/28/01 10:57 PM
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Well Duncan, I don't know if this eases your mind any, but the IDM is not quite under the hood, as H ED S pointed out earlier (it's in the driver's side fender). And Ford acually calls the "CPS" the "CMP," which doesn't leave any letters left on the camless!
But you also said:
In reply to:
"Then there are three signal wires with names that don't really tell you how they work...
I thought they kinda did...:
CID = Cylinder ID (identification)
FDCS = Fuel Demand Command Signal (aka Fuel Delivery Control Signal)
EF = Electronic Feedback
Like I said earlier, if the FDCS was digital (only on or off), one portion of my question would be mute. But the fact is, it is NOT binary. It CAN be adjusted by the PCM, which is what I've been trying to get at all along... how two unconnected components can affect each other in a pattern that might be discernable in the kind of testing discussed in this thread.
Ford says the FDCS is a 0 to 12 volt wave form signal that communicates from the PCM to the IDM the required engine timing and the duration of injector firing. The timing and duration of the signal is determined by the PCM Calibration, and, more pertinant to this thread, the signals of various sensor inputs. Hence a viable association of Texas Towncar's correlation of CMPs with IDMs, even though they are not "connected", as earlier posted. The FDCS signal is generated by the PCM pulling down toward ground a 12 volt communication circuit in the IDM.
The EF (aka Injector Driver Module Feedback) signal is a 0 to 12 volt wave form signal that communicates FROM the IDM back TO the PCM a mirror image of the FDCS signal. Ford explains that extensions of the EF signal can indicate to the PCM possible problems with the injectors by the IDM as the engine is running... (in real time). But the EF is not limited to just when the motor is running. An 83 hertz toggle signal is generated when the key is first turned "on" before the engine starts, communicating to the PCM that the IDM is powered up. The EF signal is also used to communicate diagnostic information between the IDM and the PCM, in engine off or running mode. Some will remember that the EF generated one of the fault codes in kflaigs Excursion, that inspired the tech to needless replace his PCM. Anyway, in mirror opposition of the FDCS, the EF signal is generated by the IDM pulling down to ground a 12 volt communication circuit in the PCM.
Finally, the CI (Cylinder Identification) signal is also a 0 to 12 volt wave form signal, that communicates from the PCM to the IDM the position of cylinders 1 and 4. This signal is used by the IDM to synchronize the injector firing sequence. This signal is calculated from the signal generated from none other than the Camshaft Postion Sensor. This is why Texas Towncar woke me up from my complacency about my cackle. This is why I maintain that the two components can be affect each other without being connected. Like the FDCS, the CI signal is generated by the PCM by pulling down (switching to ground) a 12 volt communication circuit in the IDM.
I wouldn't have thought that the relatively protected position of the PCM and the IDM would affect the signal communications. But that pesky little hall-effect CMP might be another matter... not so much because it is under the hood. In fact, I have no idea why it is so pesky, other than knowing that Ford has had seven different CMP sensors in production since 1994, and five of those have been discontinued. There are two left, as Don P pointed out in another thread. These are supposed to be "better." Still, I don't think that the CMP, or it's relative association as a signal that affects the IDM, is a sole cause or cure of the cackle, which is why I was happy that the split shot was also brought up.
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#603940 - 12/29/01 08:13 AM
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Hello All,
I've gathered a lot of information that people have requested, but I need time to process it and add some text.
We had a very long day yesterday. The "super crackler" is presenting a real challenge!! It is still apart on the floor. More later.
I read a few of the posts; quickly 1) Spoke to Ford enginering yesterday and sent picture. They, Ford, said the non-crackle injector voltage looked correct. 2)They also indicated the PCM would "advance" the injector pulse and widen it under load. The relative timing looked correct.
They thought that I might have bad a injector or more. A new set of 8 is being overnighted.
Changing the CPS and the IDM didn't solve the crackle problem, but it reduced it, narrowed the rpm range.
Ford wants fuel pressure plots. The new transducer came from Entran yesterday.
Ford has moved there visit here, from Monday to Wednesday.
More Later,
Doug
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Lookin
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604111 - 12/29/01 01:12 PM
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Been watching, with concern, the cackle and milage forum. Am I correct in concluding that with regards to cackle/idle knock etc, that there are 2 options...1) you already have it and 2) if not, you'll get it...? And,it is good to see that the gentleman from Texas (2 ford eng dyno research comparison) is getting some Ford support...finally...I hope he's logging his hours spent researching and documenting this problem. Ford will no doubt say thanks (maybe), take his info/fix, and act like it's their engineers' work. (apologies for cynicsm).
Been lookin about 250 sd (for capacity) sc (for space) sb (for parking space and maneuverability) dsl (for torque and milage) 4x4 (for work) for over 3 months. Just found this site Christmas Eve. Been cramming as if for finals. You all have provided great feedback...please keep up the honest comments and your documentation as appropriate and let me know if this is inevitable or sporadic.
Lookin...still
Edited by Lookin (12/29/01 01:48 PM)
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604144 - 12/29/01 02:43 PM
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TT, I can see an injector pulse getting wider under load, and I can see it getting advanced in relation to TDC for a cylinder... but two adjacent pulses can't get closer together at the same engine RPM! (If the pulses were getting advanced, they'd all be advancing [in relation to TDC] together; the relationship between their leading edges would remain the same.) The timing between their leading edges is mechanically determined by the timing between their TDC points...which is determined purely by how fast the engine is spinning. That's why I say if you had a few more cylinders on the same scope, you should see the bad cylinders' pulses move in relation to the good ones, but all the good ones' timing relationships would stay the same. Even if the pulses get wider, the leading edges should maintain the same separation at a given RPM. Uh, when I say "they can't get closer together" of course I mean "and still have the engine run correctly"! Obviously they *are* getting closer together, and that could be the whole problem. I'm not entirely sure what happens when you put the fuel in a diesel cylinder too soon, but I would think it's not good. The fuel vapor itself is not supposed to be compressed (like in a gas engine), it's supposed to be sprayed into already-compressed (and therefore heated) air just in time to have the burning fuel expand the air again and push the piston down again. Enough early fuel and you'd get mild hydraulic locking; less and you might just get pre-ignition... right?
The fact that you are not putting the truck under any more load (both readings were taken with the vehicle at 1500RPM on a dyno) is a big clue - the engine is working harder for some reason (working against its own mis-timed firing, perhaps?) and thus stretching the pulses out, which means feeding more fuel, which means worse mileage, which is where this thread started!
OK Robyn - I know what CPS stands for, what does CMP stand for? I think Hall-effect sensors are a really neat idea in theory (no contact made, no moving parts, no faults due to dirt etc like you might have with optical sensors) but all of my experience with them has said they were touchy devices in constant need of recalibration. Admittedly this was in an application (joysticks) where their analog nature was being used (precisely how far off-center was the stick pressed). The CPS in these trucks is more of a "is it on or is it off" application, which is likely to be far more forgiving of miscalibration.
Thanks for your thorough description of the signalling!
Duncan
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Robyn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604196 - 12/29/01 04:17 PM
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CMP = CPS
Same thing.
CMP is just Fordspeak for CPS. I have never read anything from Ford or International where "CPS" used. Sometimes, Ford uses "CAMP" instead of CMP, but never CPS. In fact, Ford rarely uses "S" for a "sensor" in any of their sensor acronyms. Witness the following Ford diesel sensor abbreviations: MAT, WIF, EOT, ICP, EBP, MAP, IAT, TFT, BARO, etc. As with anything, there are exceptions, such as the VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) in the Econolines.
While it may appear that I am being anal about using Ford's terminology, I actually have two other reasons for trying to establish the right habit. 1) If anyone participating in this open discussion is also consulting their shop manual or PCED, they will know just what is being talked about. 2) If someone from Ford is helping Doug with parts and a review of his tests, it might help to use Ford's language to maintain clarity.
I figured I better start the ball toward that direction by practicing.
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sdman
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604596 - 12/30/01 02:26 AM
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Doug - feel free to send me any other plots you want posted, and I'll get them up on the server.
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604745 - 12/30/01 11:13 AM
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Hello All,
I managed to resurrect my website at
http://home.sprintmail.com/~dougkennedy
I have put most of the posts I have written for this thread on it, including the work on the latest PSD (Fourth Article)..
There are some additional scope traces.
There are also some additional comments for Duncan.
Thanks for the offer to post the new traces sdman. I'll email those to you.
I am compiling a list of questions that I would like to ask Ford on Wednesday. If you can think of anything you would asked, email me or post it and I'll try to get answer.
Doug
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Lookin
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604749 - 12/30/01 11:16 AM
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Since the list is growing by the day with those of us that are Newby's, how 'bout we do like medical articles/journals do in their publications. The first time an abbreviation is used, it is defined in ( ) immediately following the term or v.v. the first time the phrase is used, the abbrev is enclosed in ( ) immediately following: Automatic Idle Cont. (AIC). Since this site is concerned with the health, care, and symptomology etc of these vehicles, could you "Clinical Directors" have a little patience with those of us who are "students" of your experience and define your terms every now and again? Apologies for the newby question but, by some for sure, too naive (or stupid) to be afraid to ask.
still....
Lookin
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604851 - 12/30/01 01:33 PM
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Hey Lookin,
That is a good idea and I know better than that. I apologize. I probably should go back and edit my posts. I tend to forget in the heat of the battle that not everyone is at the same level.
Also there are no dumb questions, just dumb people that don't ask questions.
Doug
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frobozz
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604865 - 12/30/01 02:04 PM
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Wow, this gets more and more interesting. Clearly the truck originally had some nasty looking signals, both for the injector voltage and for the CMP signal. Except all that stuff had been changed at one time or another previously... except this time it seemed to help (but not totally cure) the problem. Very strange.
When I said "the leading edges were mechanically determined..." I meant the proper injection point is mechanically determined by the engine speed. The timing between #5 hitting TDC (or wherever the proper injection point is) and #6 hitting that same point in its stroke is physically determined by crank speed, period. It's interesting that they could widen the pulse by starting it earlier, I wouldn't have thought that would be how they'd do it, but OK. If that's the case, just substitute "midpoint" for "leading edge" in my statements. Now they say by widening the pulse to make up for a failing injector, and widening it by starting it earlier, you could see the leading edge of #6 get back closer to the leading edge of #5. I'd buy that except for the fact that on the bad truck, the #5 pulse was the same width as the #6 pulse! (Could it be as simple as the software, in its attempts to make the pulse wider on one injector, making the pulse wider on *all* injectors? That would be a big oops!)
Clearly the Ford guys know a lot more than I do, I should probably stop throwing in my 2 cents, but I'm just commenting on what seems to not make sense to me, given my scant knowledge on the subject.
Speaking of my ignorance, what exactly does the OBD II system put out, and how? One of the first things I learned in embedded systems is never to believe anything the system under test was telling me! If the PCM, which could possibly be confused about when to fire the injectors from what we've seen, tells you there were no misfires, can you believe it? Or is it reporting that based on some other sensor that can actually detect misfires (like a knock sensor on gas engines)? Could it be "seeing" misfires that aren't really there, adjusting the injector timing, and thus causing misfires by trying to avoid them? Was the nasty looking "bad" injector actually OK until the PCM started timing things wrong and abusing it?
Lots of questions, looks like TexasTowncar will eventually be the guy with all the answers! This is really great work you're doing, Ford should give you an engineering excellence award. (On the other hand, if you end up missing like Karen Silkwood, we can assume this problem will never get fixed...)
Duncan
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tjwolf12
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604913 - 12/30/01 03:44 PM
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My 99 knocks so loud everytime I pull up to a store I have to answer 10 questions as to why my truck is about to blow up! Its !@#! embarrasing! I'll be sitting next to a Dr Pepper or Beer 18 wheeler and you cant even hear them over mine! Im my business we have 15 99s and 3 of them are as loud as mine and the others sound like they purr in comparison!
Is there a web site dedicated to keeping us up to date on this specific problem. Besides this one of course :)
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Robyn
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#604979 - 12/30/01 05:37 PM
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"I also tested the fuel rail pressure with an Entran EHTP 100 psi transducer. There seems to be a small increase in the rail pressure each time an injector on the rail fires. However I am not too concerned about this at the moment, because the fuel pressure is fairly stable prior to the next cylinder firing." -- Doug K. (Texas Towncar)
I believe that this can be explained by the "gap" in the injector plunger, as detailed in one of my earlier posts in this thread, regarding the split-shot.
Since we are trying to using Ford terms now, this gap is officially called an "annular groove," and, according to Ford's update on the changes in PSD engines with a serial number higher than 896812, this annular groove is wider than in previous models...(previous models being non-cacklers, perhaps?)... so that the time between the first and second shot of injection is increased, which reduces emissions. The wider annular groove injectors are not interchangeable with previous injectors, according to Ford, who even changed to a higher pressure oil pump to accomodate this and other changes in the injector.
How pertinant is this to the cackle and pulse/timing issues, I cannot say, but it does seem very relevant... especially when considering altering fuel systems to control and or maintain pressure in the rail.
Any fluctuation, though small, could possibly have more effect than immediately apparent... if it is at precisely the wrong time.
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TexasTowncar
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605104 - 12/30/01 08:03 PM
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Duncan,
Don't stop asking questions or make assertions. We all learn, because you might see something differently.
Q: (Could it be as simple as the software, in its attempts to make the pulse wider on one injector, making the pulse wider on *all* injectors? That would be a big oops!)
A: There are several possibilities here 1) They attempted to correct the power problem by adjusting one injector, in didn't work so they widen the adjacent injectors pulse width to compensate. (Kind of doubt that) 2) They can only widen all the pulse widths due to a lack of processor power. The wider #8 was the result of a bad injector driver module (IDM). I tend to believe that.
Q: what exactly does the OBD II system put out, and how?
A: The onboard diagnostic II scanner (OBDII) is connected to the powertrain control module (PCM) via a data communications link (DCL) which is mandated by federal law for emissions testing. Various motor and transmission parameters are required to be available. The Autotap OBD that I have runs on a PC. It allows you to do everything but reflash the PCM.
It allows the diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) to be download and displayed. It also allows the DTCs to be cleared. There are about 50 motor and transmission parameters called PIDs, that can be monitor and logged to a file. There are several gauge screens that can be configured along with several list screens and table screens.
The information provided seems to be accurate, of course it is the information that the PCM is using to control the drive train.
I use the software on a laptop and made a stand for the laptop to ride on, so most of the time I use the Autotap as gauges for oil temperature, transmission fluid temperature, boost, coolant temperature, etc.
Q. If the PCM, which could possibly be confused about when to fire the injectors from what we've seen, tells you there were no misfires, can you believe it?
A. I am not sure how the PCM detects a misfire. There is a return signal from the IDM to the PCM on pin 4 of the IDM called Electronic Feed Back Signal. That signal probably means that the IDM thought that it fired the injector, but there isn't anyway for the IDM to know for sure that the injector fired.
Q. Or is it reporting that based on some other sensor that can actually detect misfires (like a knock sensor on gas engines)?
A. There isn't any other sensor that I know of, such as a ping detector. However, when the motor misfired, I could hear it and the misfire count went up. When the misfire rate was reduced there were less misfires recorded. These are some of the question that I have for Ford.
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4cstr
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605199 - 12/30/01 09:37 PM
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First off, let me say that this site is a God-send. I just bought my first diesel, and am having an extremely hard time just trying to get information on it. I bought the truck used, and the previous owner didn't even realize the shift on the fly feature of the 4x4 system...so getting any info from him isn't all that great. Being a "newbie" I apoligize in advance for the following questions, but am hoping that you can enlighten me. With this being my first diesel, I don't know if I have a "cackle" or not. The truck sounds like a diesel, I guess, and does make more noise than my '87 F150 with the 5.0L. Mileage wise, we just took the truck home for Christmas, and I averaged 13-15 mpg on the interstate empty, doing about 75mph on the open road. However, here in SD, I have been running either a 50-50 mix diesel fuel, or pure #1. My understanding is that the tradeoff of having a fuel with better anti-gelling qualities is a decrease in power, which I believe would result in decreased mpg. So, is the mileage a good indicator of the "bad fuel mileage cackle", or would I be better off seeing how it does once we warm up(hopefully around March) The truck seems to idle smoothly, irregardless of cool or warm engine. Would I be out of line to go to our local dealer and ask to start a new truck, just to see how it sounds compared to mine? I can say that I don't scare adults and children, as mentioned in earlier posts. Me and my family really enjoy the truck, but I just have so many questions. I willl glean all I can from this site. Thanks to all.
99 CC 4x4 3.73's with limited slip auto tranny hopefully many more upgrades in the future
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H ED S
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Member
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Member # 4033
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Reged: 11/27/99
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Posts: 6286
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Loc: Lumberton, Republic of Texas , Hardin County . and US of A
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605298 - 12/30/01 11:27 PM
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Lookin If this works on this site thai is a good list of acronyms.
http://www.diesel-central.com/FAQ/definitions.htm
These need to be added to it:
CCV = Crank Case Vapors
DMFW = Dual Mass Fly Wheel
RABS or RWABS = Rear Antilock Brake System
- Ed -
Edited by H ED S (12/30/01 11:49 PM)
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Robyn
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Member
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Member # 5486
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Reged: 02/20/00
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Posts: 1327
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Loc: Northern California
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605402 - 12/31/01 05:40 AM
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In reply to:
Originally posted by Texas Towncar:
"The onboard diagnostic II scanner (OBDII) is connected to the powertrain control module (PCM) via a data communications link (DCL) which is mandated by federal law for emissions testing. The Autotap OBD that I have runs on a PC. It allows you to do everything but reflash the PCM.
It allows the diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) to be download and displayed. It also allows the DTCs to be cleared. There are about 50 motor and transmission parameters called PIDs, that can be monitor and logged to a file. The information provided seems to be accurate, of course it is the information that the PCM is using to control the drive train. "
Doug,
The Ford PCED has another take on the values from a generic OBDII reader...
Deviations From Standard Gasoline Implementation of OBD II: (Diesel)
1. The Parameter IDs (PID) that are supported according to OBD II regulations are limited to: Calculated Load Value, MAP, VSS, IAT, and Engine Speed. Values for the other parameters are not accurate and are defaulted.
2. The Freeze Frame supports the following limited list of parameters: Freeze Frame Related Trouble Code, MAP, VSS and Engine Speed. Values for the other parameters are not representative and are defaulted.
The PID monitor for OBD II offers real time evaluation of several emissions-related parameters. Most of these are related to the HO2S and EGR, for which the diesel has no equivalent. The only parameters which apply to 7.3L diesel applications are CCNT, MAP, MIL, RPM and VSS.
Under Freeze Frame Data: Load, RPM and VSS are the only parameters used for the 7.3L Diesel; all other parameters are to be ignored.
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TexasTowncar
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member
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Member # 18429
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Reged: 12/21/01
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Posts: 118
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605543 - 12/31/01 10:26 AM
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Robyn,
You have a good point; the split fire injector could be part of the problem. If it is, I am not sure how to prove it. I certainly can't "see" the operation of the injector when in place. Unfortunately, there isn't, at least I haven't been able to find clear information on the split shot injector. It is not mentioned in the service manual. Perhaps you have a source. I intend to ask Ford about the operation on Wednesday.
I am doing those things that I have the equipment for first. That is why I am changing the fuel path next so that the fuel will circulate through the head and back to the tank. I can add an adjustable regulator and temperature sensor to each head using off-the-shelf parts. Perhaps this will add some more information.
I plan to take a part one of the injectors that we removed on Saturday.
Regarding the ODBII; Granted, it isn't a perfect tool, but it is better than guessing. If I were interested in emissions, I would use a Sun Analyzer and would not rely on a vehicle mount system since most of the emission sensing transducers are subject to periodic recalibration. This is probably the reason that more with onboard emissions testing hasn't been done.
I have found the following parameters from the ODB to accurate when compared with an independent device;
Injection Control Pressure
Fuel Injector Pulse Width
Manifold Gage Pressure
Mass Air Pressure
Barometric Pressure
Oil Temperature
Transmission Fluid Temperature
Coolant Temperature
As I mentioned earlier, the misfire information also appears to be accurate or at least relatively close to accurate.
I couldn't afford to buy half these gages for the cost of the software and cable adapter.
Doug
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H ED S
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Member
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Member # 4033
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Reged: 11/27/99
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Posts: 6286
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Loc: Lumberton, Republic of Texas , Hardin County . and US of A
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605644 - 12/31/01 12:26 PM
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Doug I feel you are right on the splitshot injector system being the problem. This was never an issue until they were introduced. It reared its ugly head firs when the California emmissions regulations went into effect. This was a couple of years before the nationwide inroduction in99. It was then called the Californis cackle. They got the system in the 96 or 97 model year I think.
[crazy - Ed -
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Apollo
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Member # 18143
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Reged: 12/08/01
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Posts: 255
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Loc: Georgia
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605762 - 12/31/01 02:56 PM
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Hey TT, your doing a great job and the info is very much appreciated. Do you have a way of recording the sound of an engine that has cackle or know of a site that already has a wave file of one recorded ? I'm new to owning a diesel and I don't know if my truck has cackle or not. I would like to hear a good example of what cackle sounds like.
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KB
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Member # 8230
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Reged: 09/04/00
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Posts: 1671
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Loc: Eagle River, Alaska
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Re: MPG AND CACKLE
#605962 - 12/31/01 06:29 PM
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TT
Have you read this explaination of the splitshot injector? splitshot It is from the dieselmann page.
Bruce
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