Archives >> 7.3L Power Stroke Engine and Drivetrain (11/01-7/03)

Pages: 1
StevePSD
Member
Member # 3145
Reged: 10/01/99
Posts: 441
Loc: Ridgecrest, CA
Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60?
#658426 - 02/23/02 01:42 PM

Getting ready to change-out the gear oil in my differential's and have run into a discrepency between the owners manual and the Ford factory service manual (CD-Rom version 17.0, August 2000). Maybe there is a error in the service manual, anyone have a newer version that they could check?

For the front diff (it's a Dana 60, I have a F-350 DRW), the owners manual says use 75W-90, meeting Ford spec WSP-M2C201-A. The service manual says use 80W-90, meeting Ford spec WSP-M2C197-A. I don't believe any of these are synthetic fluids. Any ideas which one is correct?

For the rear axle (Dana 80) it looks like 75W-140 synthetic, meeting Ford spec WSL-M2C192-A is called for. It looks like not to many companies make this. What brand(s) are you using?

Thanks for the help.

Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#658515 - 02/23/02 05:01 PM

Steve:

While it is a pity that the Service Manual is in disagreement with the Owner's Manual, it is not entirely uncommon, I too have found, unfortunately.

I would follow the Owner's Manual, in this particular case. Not only does it let you off the hook for any original and/or extended warranty issues downline (especially with your incredibly low miles), the Owner's manual also concurs with Ford Motor Company's Product Engineering Materials Approved Source list, which answers several of your questions, as follows:

Specification Number WSP-M2C 201-A Lubricant, Front Axle Hypoid, Thermally Stable, 75W-90, Dated 98-11-23

It should be noted that the "date" is the revision date, not the original date the spec was written.

There was only one OE supplier on Ford's approved list for this gear oil as of 8 months ago, as follows:

Supplier: UNOCAL
Product Description: Thermally Stable MP Gear Lube 75W-90
Trade Name Product Code: 05128
Ford File Reference: T&AE/C984
GSDB Supplier Code: U045A
Ford Approval Date: 94-03-09
Log Number: 63074
TOX Number: 136038 (C2)

To the best of my understanding, the WSP-M2C201-A specification for the 75W-90 was written/developed later than the WSP-M2C197-A specification for the 80W-90 hypoid gear lube that is perhaps mistakenly listed on the "specifications" table of the Service Manual CD under the front axle service section. Generally, the higher the root specification number (ie, 192, 197, 201, 280, etc) the more recent the original release date.

While I cannot verify the original date of the 201-A specification release at this time, I can discuss in the greatest of detail (upon your request) the other two specifications you mentioned, beginning with the 197-A, which, in the F-Superduty 250-550 line, is a rear axle lubricant that is apparently only specified for the Dana 135 rear axle found in the F-550 without the #535 additional GVWR package.

Specification Number WSP-M2C197-A Lubricant, Rear Axle Hypoid, Thermally Stable, SAE 80W-90, Dated 98-11-23

Again, it should be noted that the "date" is the revision date, not the original date the spec was written. The original release date for this spec was April 13, 1993. Under the "APPLICATION" heading on the Ford Engineering Material Specification, it states that "This specification was released originally for use in rear axle assemblies with hypoid type drive gears."

It is a solvent refined petroleum based lubricant blended with thermally stable sulfur / phosphorus / nitrogen / boron extreme pressure additive. This oil also meets the API GL-5 and MIL-L-2105D performance levels, as do all the other lubricants discussed here.

By the way, I still recommend the 75W-90 for your front axle, even though I am not able to elaborate on it's make-up at this time.

I will not list the supplier details of the 80W-90, since your truck does not use this gear oil in either axle. But just for fun, it is interesting to note that UNOCAL is one of the four suppliers on Ford's Approved Source List, and the name of the lubricant is entitled: "EXPERIMENTAL GEAR LUBE 47-01-151", approved in 1995, and the engineer who is listed under that oil happens to be the author of the standard itself.

By the way, CONOCO is apparently the approved OE supplier of the 80W-90 gear oil found in the Motorcraft bottles at the Ford Dealer, approved for FCSD use in 1996. (FCSD = Ford Customer Service Division). The other two approved suppliers of the four are for the European market.

Finally, the rear axle lubricant specified for your truck is at least without conflict in both the Owner's manual and the Service manual, identified as WSP-M2C192-A. As the number implies, this specification was orignally released prior to the other two, even while the now nearly universal adoption of the same in production seems to have occured later.

Specification Number WSL-M2C192-A Lubricant, SAE 75W-140, Hypoid Gear, Synthetic Dated 98-11-23

Originally released on August 5, 1992, this specification is for "material used to lubricate conventional and limited slip differential hypoid gear rear axles." The "material" defined by this specification contains "polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic hydrocarbon base lubricant." (Don M and Bob R, please give your sparring gloves a rest on this one.... The PAO base constituent is simply reported here per Ford's specification as L. Gullen, the original lubrication engineer that approved it, defined it.) By the way, no Viscosity Index improver is used in this spec.

The Ford Approved Suppliers for this particular synthetic rear axle lubricant are more numerous than any other axle lubricant listed for the Superduty. It would be to laborious to type in all the code numbers chapter and verse for each supplier, so I'll just list the brand name and product name for those 75W-140 synthetics approved for sale in North America, in alphabetical order as follows:

76 LUBRICANTS - 76 Syngear S.S. 75W-140 Approved Feburary 8, 1999

Special note: This is Lubrizol 6055 as Tier 1, same as Citgo and Uno-Ven. 76 is Tier 2.

Lubrizol is a lubricant/additive supplier/formulator. Lubrizol's customers include Redline and other after-marketeer's of synthetics.

Castrol, Inc. - Castrol Hypoys Approved April 12, 1991*

Citgo Petroleum - Ford M2C192-A 75W-140 Approved September 3, 1998

Conoco, Inc. - OS-689P Approved May 5, 1991*

Metal Working Lubricants, Inc. - MetalLube 75 GO Hypoid Gear Synthetic Lubricant Approved October 5, 1995

Mobil Research & Development Corp. - Mobilube SHC 75W140 Gear Oil Approved September 6, 1994

D A Stuart Company - Sturaco 7599 Approved September 3, 1992

Special Note: This product was previously approved for an older standard, ESP-M2C187-A, on March 31, 1990. ESP-M2C187-A has since been superceded, and is no longer listed in the Ford Product Engineering Source index. I do not think that Sturaco is available here in North America, but listed it anyway just in case.

Texaco, LTD - MultiGear S 75W140 Approved August 4, 1999

Special Note: This is a European source as well. In America, at least certain business units of Texaco are now called ChevronTexaco.

Go figure why a Shell card is still good at a Texaco station? And while we're on the subject, go figure why Rockerfeller was made to break up all these oil companies in the first place, now that they are merging together again left and right? And then, go figure at the so called "Baby Bells" re-combining, no longer babies, but huge adults by anyone's definition, like SBC's merger with Pacific Bell? Now why were tax dollars spent breaking them up? If it looks like a circus, rings like a circus, it must be a ... hey why not spend more money breaking up Microsoft today, so that resultant by-product companies of the breakup can be allowed to merge again fifteen years from now, this time only as even bigger children, er a... conglomerates?

Oh yeah, this is about gear oil, not soap... excuse me. But this post was getting kind of dry, even while it was about lubricants. Besides, if you are still reading this, you deserved a mental break, didn't you? Ok, you call it a mental breakdown. Whatever.

................ Cut along dotted line .................

UNOCAL - Unocal Syngear S.S. 75W/140 Approved May 29, 1997

Special Note: Second Approved Source For Aftermarket (GSDB Code D7APH)
Ford File Reference is FCSD (Service)

UNOCAL - Unocal Syngear F 75W140 Approved August 4, 1998

Special Note: (Usual GSDB code for Unocal: U045A) Ford File Reference: T&A/C871

UNOCAL - Unocal Syngear SS 75W140 Approved September 23, 1989*

Special Note: GSDB U045A, Ford File Reference: LTEO/802645/C1005


On the three OEM Approved Unocal entries immediately above, no other data is provided to differentiate between the similar Syngear 75W140 products.


* = Approved before the official release date of the specification

Well, Steve, at long last, this hopefully comes close answering your questions. If you have any more about specific properties of the latter two specifications, email me. Or, meet me at Bobby W's dealership on March 15. I'll be down there to help collect yet another "W33-99F," an '02 model being built this coming Monday.










zahndok
Member
Member # 6330
Reged: 04/12/00
Posts: 559
Loc: So Cal
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#658716 - 02/23/02 09:38 PM

Now don't confuse me again. We went through this a couple of weeks ag. My 2002 Owners Guide states 75-90 synthetic for a Dana 80. 75-140 is for the Ford 10.5". 80-90 for the Dana 135. I still need to change it out to Mobil 1 75-90 as I mistakenly put in the Motorcraft 75-140 when I did the Maghytec rear cover.

Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#658864 - 02/24/02 12:38 AM

I don't believe that anything said in the post above is contradictory to the requirement that you report for the 2002 Dana 80. And the subject of THIS thread is the correct lubricant for the Dana 60, not the Dana 80.

But since you brought it up, and to confirm the legitmate use of 75W-90 in rear axles, know that many Dana/Spicer/Eaton/Roadranger axles use synthetic 75W-90 gear oil. It is the only weight/viscosity that has been adequately field testing for a 500,000 mile intitial drain interval, with 250,000 mile service drain intervals, under full and complete warranty for over the road trucks, provided that the 75W-90 selected meets the Dana/et-al E500(TM) Approved Lubricant list. Ford uses a 75W-90 gear lubricant that is on that list, as a DSO only. The order code is 13F3, (not a code that is significant to us, as we cannot specify this as consumers... DSO only, and I do not know which vehicles this option applies to, it could be for the 19,000 GVWR Dana 135, or perhaps certain fleet operated 650/750 trucks, which is more likely, as I learned that this oil is shipped to Mexico). I believe Cognis and/or 76 Lubricants (as an alternate) is the oil manufacturer of this particular OEM Ford E500 Approved synthetic 75W-90, but the other usual suspects also have synthetic 75W-90 products on the E500 list, including but not limited to Conoco, Castrol, Chevron, Citgo, ExxonMobil, Fleetrite (which is International, but this oil is definately manufactured by Cognis), Gulf, Shell, Texaco, Pennziol-Quaker State, and at least a dozen others.

Of interest to note is that none of the sometimes-so-called (but not by me) "snake oil" oil marketing companies have a product approved on the 500,000 mile drain interval list, with the exception of Lubrication Engineers, Inc. In other words, no Royal Purple, no Redline, no Amsoil, no whatever else is sold out there as a superior synthetic made this list.

The list itself echos in almost lock-step with the Mack GO-J Plus standard. This respected Mack standard requires an axle lubricant to actually "go the distance" on the ROAD in a fleet, not in a simulation, in order to be approved (after periodic sample testing) as meeting the standard. Which leads to why only the 75W-90 viscosity has met the GO-J Plus, and consequently the E500 approved list. There have not been any commerical fleets in operation found that are willing to run the heavier oils, such as an 80W-140, because of fuel economy, so I am told.

Anyway, if the 2002 Ford owners manual suggests using 75W-90 in your Dana 80, then that is what I would use. Nothing written in the post above seems to conflict with that, other than possibly the definition of the WSP-M2C201-A standard as a Front Axle Hypoid gear lubricant spec. However, if this is the spec (201-A) that is also cited for the Dana 80 rear in 2002 (you actually did not report the spec cited, only the viscosity), then I would assume Ford simply broadened the application parameters to now include that axle, which I suppose they do from time to time. Remember, I reported my Ford Approved list as being 8 months old, which is prior to Job 1 for 2002.

Finally, the WSP-M2C201-A specification does not rise to the level of the E500/Mack GO-J Plus standards mentioned above.



ronk54
Member
Member # 15021
Reged: 07/13/01
Posts: 294
Loc: Hemet, California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#658890 - 02/24/02 01:19 AM

Robyn - other than disregarding Ford's requirement, what harm could come to my rear diff by running a good 75-90 weight in it (01 F250 Powerstroke, auto - Dana 60 I believe).

A reputable diesel shop in Las Vegas told me they run 75-90 synthetic in theirs with good results - better fuel miliage and no breakage. They said it is fine unless you are towing huge loads (10000/12000 or more lbs), in which case, they do recommend the heavier gear oil. Without arguing about Ford's requirement, what do you think? Anyone else have experience with this or have an opinion?

zahndok
Member
Member # 6330
Reged: 04/12/00
Posts: 559
Loc: So Cal
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#658911 - 02/24/02 02:11 AM

That's the confusing part and why I brought it up in this thread. If you have a dually it calls for 75-90W in both axles but it is not clear that you can use the same oil front and rear. They list the spec. WSP-2c201A for the front axle and call for Ford part # XY-75W90-TQL.
For a rear Dana 80 axle they call for Ford part#XY-75W90-GLS but there is only a dash in the Spec. column. Can I use the same 75-90W Mobil 1 synthetic in the front Dana 60 and rear Dana 80?

Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#658942 - 02/24/02 04:12 AM

Ah, the two different suffixes to those similar oil part numbers are probably significant. I cannot verify right now what the suffixes mean, but they are not likely to be meaningless letters. For example, Ford now offers a Motorcraft branded synthetic transmission fluid. The only difference in part numbers between this new synthetic Mercon and the older "dino" Mercon is the middle letter in the suffix.

It is also significant that no specification was listed for the 75W-90 identified for your 2002 Dana 80 rear axle. In that case, I would NOT necessarily be looking for gear oils that met the WSP-M2C201-A specification. First, I would write a letter to Ford asking that their intended specification for the 2002 Dana 80 be provided to you.

If Ford is non-responsive, I would ask again. Sometimes the ball gets dropped between departments when it comes to following up on these details.

If Ford is still non-responsive before the time that you decide to change your rear axle fluid, then I would probably select a synthetic rear axle lubricant for your Dana 80 that meets the following industry specifications for axle lubricants, listed in (only my own) order of importance:

API GL-5
MIL-PRF-2105E
Mack GO-J+
RoadRanger E500
Eaton PS-037 and PS-163
Rockwell 0-76-E and 0-76-J

Note that the preceding are specifications for synthetic 75W-90 axle lubricants, not the minimum or specific lubricant specifications for the axle identified.

I don't know all the synthetic brands that are available that meet or exceed the specs I listed above. Regional availablity and convenience enter into the equation as well, so I am not able to exclusively recommend a brand, such as Mobil 1 or whatever. As long as the gear oil meets the appropriate Ford specification identified for the application, if known, or the industry specifications above as a top-of-the-line synthetic lubricant alternative, then the lubrication requriment for the axle is likely to be adequately met.

It is not clear to me, in the case of the Dana 80, or the Dana 60, that synthetic lubricant is required... unlike the synthetic specification mandatory for the Sterling 10.5 inch axle. It stands to reason that synthetics are superior for extended drain interval applications like axles. I suspect that most synthetics meeting the specifications above will meet or exceed the original mineral oil specifications in the areas of thermal stablity, extreme pressure capability, pour point, flash point, anti-foaming properties, abrasion qualities, corrosion resistance, water tolerance, oxidation stability, etc. The only significant exception might be in the area of seal compatibility.

Without any scientifically gathered data, or reports to back the following hair brained idea up, I have come to the general, off-the-cuff suspicion that there might be some characteristic inherent in the Ford supplied 75W-140 synthetic gear lube that is causing a suprisingly large number of pinion seals to fail. When I told a Ford engineer that I replaced the axle lubricant in my Dana 135 to a synthetic, he PROMISED me that I would lose the pinion seal within 10,000 miles. I'm only half-way there, and the seal is dry as a bone so far. But I wonder if he assumed I poured in the Ford 75W-140? (I didn't. )

Most of the time, because I am not smart enough to know any better, I follow Ford's recommendations to the letter. I don't think that my reading a few websites or a few bottles of an aftermarket brand's oil qualifies me to say, OK, that'll work in my truck. I happen to have the full text of some Ford lubricant specifications, and they are each six pages long, 8 point type (with space for charts/tables etc), per individual specification. When comparing axle lubricant specification characteristics, many of the individual parameters tested are close, but nonetheless different. I assume that there is more to each and every aspect than I will ever understand, and thus follow the recommendations.

Other's, with lots of experience, say that gear oil, is gear oil, is simply gear oil. Sounds good... just not the school of thought I subsribe to.

Nevertheless, when Ford doesn't publish a specification to follow, or worse, publishes conflicting specifications, as in the case of the Dana 60 front axle that Steve began this thread about, well, then improvisation is necessary.

However, Ford has published a specification for the front axle in the Owner's manual, which means no improvisation for that axle is required. I am not qualified to answer whether or not this same specification is adequate for the rear axle. I cannot answer with any certainty whether or not using the same lubricant in the front and rear axles, as was asked in the post earlier, is appropriate.

In fact, not even over twenty five years of my own experience with an undented wrench in hand is of any help. Twenty five years ago, I used to pump in Sta-Lube brand gear oil that I bought from the cheapest source available, as long as it was API GL-whatever the standard was at that time. That was good enough for me then, without knowing anything other. I never had an axle problem, by the way, at least that I knew of.

I've learned a little more in the 25 years since then, but not enough. Now I first go buy the book, and then I go by the book. Unless, the book is, er..a.. well, at least there are some seemingly viable solutions with these two particular Dana axles.


kreynol2Moderator
Administrator
Member # 3579
Reged: 10/31/99
Posts: 7618
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#658953 - 02/24/02 06:20 AM

I have a Y2K DRW and I brought it in and let Ford change out the fluid in the axle. As I remember, they put in either 75w-90 or 80w-90 synthetic in the front and rear. For me, I just let Ford change it out. Then they are tasked with getting it right, not me. I do remember saying that it was not what the manual stated and they said that they go by the most recent Service Guide, not the manual. Apparently the Service Guide will supercede the manual. I found this out when I brought my truck in to have a leaky tranny pan TSB performed and they refilled with synthetic. The manual called for regular oil, but the Service Guide had just come out and the recommendation was synthetic, so in it went.

Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#659309 - 02/24/02 04:26 PM

Kevin,

If it were convenient enough for you to do, I was wondering if you could look up your repair order for that service, and find out exactly which oil your dealer used in the front axle. I think it would be helpful to us to know. I was aware of the TSB and or SSM that informed dealers of the new synthetic Motorcraft Mercon ATF that recently became available and is now recommended in some transmissions. I was not aware of the same for the front differential.

The Service Manual refered to in this case, (not an up to the minute Broadcast Service Message, or a Special Service Message, or a TSB... but a CD) cites a specification different from the Owner's manual, and in this case both of those specifications are not synthetic specs, which conflicts with what your dealer reported as most recently recommended by what you called a "Service Guide". I have checked up through 2001 model years, and have not found a new specification yet. If your dealer installed a synthetic gear oil in the front axle per a directive from Ford, then neither the spec stated in the owner's manual, nor the service CD's up to 2001, are up to date; and those that prefer to service their own vehicles should be apprised of the latest recommendation from Ford.

It would be great if you could pinpoint what your dealer put in your truck.


SmokeyWrenModerator
Administrator
Member # 957
Reged: 04/26/99
Posts: 16386
Loc: Midland County,TX, USA
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#659466 - 02/24/02 08:00 PM

In reply to:

If your dealer installed a synthetic gear oil in the front axle per a directive from Ford, then neither the spec stated in the owner's manual, nor the service CD's up to 2001, are up to date; ...




Robyn, you're confusing me.

My '99 Owner's Guide says 75W90 synthetic for the front axle of a 4x4 - Ford part # XY-75W90-QL, Ford Spec WSP-M2C201-A. It doesn't specify which front axle, other than a 4x4.

350dweezil
Member
Member # 13311
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 475
Loc: Northfield, MI
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#659669 - 02/24/02 10:52 PM

Hi Kevin,

What TSB was that? What symptoms were you experiencing?

Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#659674 - 02/24/02 11:01 PM

Gee, Smokey, I guess you'll have to stand in line behind zahndok for people I have confused, just in this thread alone. It's my specialty. If you think your confused by me, just think how much I confuse myself! EVERYDAY, not just a message post every once in a while.

So, I'll reset the saddle, tighten up the cinch strap, and try again:

In reply to:

"My '99 Owner's Guide says 75W90 synthetic for the front axle.." -- by Smokey




Do you mind re-checking your owner's manual again just to verify this?

Is it possible that your owner's manual instead says "SAE 75W-90 Premium 4x4 Front Axle Lubricant"? That would be consistent with what my 2000 Owner's manual says. "Premium." is not "synthetic." In another example, Motorcraft 15W-40 motor oil is also called "premium," and as you know, it too, is not synthetic.

In reply to:

"...Ford part # XY-75W90-QL,..." -- by Smokey




My owner's manual says XY-75W90-TQL... basically the same thing, not trying to split hairs here, just un-confuse. The suffix in this case, "TQL" is not referencieng a synthetic product.

In reply to:

"...Ford Spec WSP-M2C201-A. " -- by Smokey




Yep, my manual cites the exact same specification. And, according to the Ford Engineering Material Specifications, that is not a synthetic gear oil spec. That is not to say that a synthetic is not capable of meeting or exceeding the performance attributes required to meet that spec, but the base material defined by the spec is solvent refined petroleum blended with a thermally stable additive. The word "synthetic" is not mentioned, unlike other specifications such as the synthetic spec for certain rear axles described several posts above.

Therefore, so far, we seem to have the following three directives for 4x4 front axle lube from Ford:

1. Owner's Manual: 75W90 Premium (Dino) WSP-M2C201-A

2. Service Manual: 80W90 Premium (Dino) WSP-M2C197-A

3. Kreynol's Post: A Synthetic gear lubricant of either 75W90 or 80W90... but he's not sure which. Specification unidentified. Source of authority is the dealer's statement that Ford "superceded" the printed requirement with a synthetic specification.

While I have already posted most all of the Ford approved oils that meet the above known specifications, which gives plenty to safely choose from, I still think that if Ford has notified dealers of a change, then we should perhaps try to learn about it. The change may have been motivated by field problems that led to excess warranty expenses, so it might behoove us do-it-yourselfers to take the same pre-emptive measures.

If in fact the Kevin's dealer was not accurate, and no verifiable change in specification can be found, then the choice is up to us which of the remaining choices, #1 or #2, should be followed.

It makes some sense that the Service CDs should take precedence over the Owner's manual, especially since the former are updated more often. Yet, in my limited experience, I have found that Owner's manuals to be edited and reviewed more carefully, by more corporate departments, than service manuals... generally speaking. I have discovered more changes and updates, and error admissions, in service manuals than in owner's manuals. Beyond that, the Ford Product Engineering Materials Approved Source List, and the Ford Engineering Materials Specifications, seem to support the use of 75W90 in front axles, (choice #1), as per the Owner's manual.

Therefore, without Kevin's post, I would tend to ignore the Service manual and go with the Owner's manual. But Kevin reported something very interesting... that of an "update" in the "service guide" that directs the dealer to use a "synthetic" oil in the front. If more information comes up that clarifies this, then the blanks in choice # 3 can be filled in, and we can decide accordingly.

Did this unconfuse and clarify the choices, or clutter the issue more?

Hopefully not the latter...





SmokeyWrenModerator
Administrator
Member # 957
Reged: 04/26/99
Posts: 16386
Loc: Midland County,TX, USA
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#659913 - 02/25/02 08:31 AM

In reply to:

Do you mind re-checking your owner's manual again just to verify this?




For the front axle and the Dana 80 axle it lists the same exact Ford part number and spec. Under the Dana 80 axle it says "Motorcraft SAE 75w90 Synthetic Rear Axle Lube" with the footnote about adding the friction modifier. For the front axle it doesn't include the word "synthetic", but since it has the same Ford part number I can almost guarantee you that Ford will not have two completely different lubes with the same Ford part number and spec. Therefore Logic 101 says the front stuff is synthetic too.


kreynol2Moderator
Administrator
Member # 3579
Reged: 10/31/99
Posts: 7618
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#659923 - 02/25/02 08:38 AM

Nope, the work order is different from what the service guy said. They put 80w-90 synthetic in the front and 75w-140 synthetic in the rear. Mine is the Y2K Dana 80, though, and that might be why it is somewhat different from what everyone's says.

350dweezil, the tranny pan TSB was for leakiness. I think it was for a condition that was corrected by the 2001 model year, but the symptoms were that the rear of the pan leaked oil causing a big ol' mess. They fixed it and refilled with synthetic tranny oil, which was the first I'd heard of Ford recommending synthetic transmission oil. This was done in the summer of 2000.

Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660252 - 02/25/02 02:24 PM

In reply to:

"For the front axle it doesn't include the word 'synthetic'" -- by Smokey




That's what I thought.

Yet, now there is another twist on what you are reporting from your owner's manual. By contrast, the 1999 Ford Service manual, Version 20.0, states that the 75W-140 synthetic gear oil, meeting spec WSL-M2C192-A, is the lubricant tht should be used in the Dana 80 rear axle. No mention of 75W90 for the rear, as you report from your '99 owner's manual. The use of 75W140 is consistent with both Kevin's and Steve's reports from their experiences, and is consistent with the my 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001 Ford Service CD recommendations for the Dana 80 axle. In addition, Ford's Final Print Light Duty Truck Specification Book further corroborates the requirement of WSL-M2C192-A (75W-140 synthetic) for use in the Dana 80 rear axle on Ford light trucks.

I never got around to signing up for that elective course "Logic 101," (because I was afraid the poor grade that I surely would have received would lower my G.P.A.!!) but the overwhelming amount of printed matter produced by Ford that I do happen to have still suggests to me that:

A. The 75W-90 gear oil, meeting Ford spec WSP-M2C201-A, Motorcraft Part Number XY-75W90-TQL, is a NON-synthetic front axle lubricant as delivered and designed by Ford. Appropriate for use in the Dana 60 front axle.

B. The 75W-140 gear oil, meeting Ford spec WSL-M2C192-A, Motorcraft/Ford Part Number F1TZ-19580-B, is a full synthetic rear axle lubricant as delivered and designed by Ford. Appropriate for use in the Dana 80 rear axle, as it turns out was done in Kevin's truck by the Ford dealer.

Yet, we have the following interesting exceptions:

- Exception 1: Zahndok reports that for his 2002, "For a rear Dana 80 they (BTW, which "they"?... '02 owner's manual or '02 service CD?) call for Ford part # XY-75W90-GLS but there is only a dash in the spec column." If this is true, it could indicate a recent departure from the 75W-140 synthetic previously called for. It also makes me wonder if there was in fact something substantial to my suspicion that there is some quality in the Ford 75W-140 lubricant that was troubling pinion seals. Regardless, NOTICE that the suffix, "GLS", DIFFERS from the "TQL" suffix of the first 75W90 gear oil described under "A." And notice no specification number is cited. This appears to indicate that there are now two different 75W90 gear oils available, and it also seems to indicate that Ford determined that the 75W90 WSP-M2C201-A front axle lubricant was not to be used in the Dana 80 rear axle. In fact, no other rear axle in the Superduty line calls for the WSP-M2C201-A specification either.

- Exception 2: Smokey reports that in his 1999 owner's manual, "For the front axle and the Dana 80 axle it lists the same exact Ford part number and spec. Under the Dana 80 axle it says 'Motorcraft SAE 75w90 Synthetic Rear Axle Lube.'" To me, this defies "logic," since the "exact same Ford part number and spec" for the 75W-90 front axle (-TQL, 201-A) does not specify a "synthetic" base under the scope of the material definition. Could this be a misprint?

C. The 80W-90 gear oil, meeting Ford spec WSP-M2C197-A, Motorcraft Part Number XY-80W90-QL, is a NON-synthetic rear axle lubricant as delivered and designed by Ford. Appropriate for use in Dana S135 rear axles in F-550's without the enhanced GVWR package. Other rear axles from Ford Motor Company use this lubricant spec as well, (eg. Explorers, Mountaineers), but NO '99-up Superduty has this gear oil specified in either the 10.5" or the Dana 80 rear axles. There is a kicker here too though:

- Kicker: What started this whole thread was Steve's observation that his Ford service CD calls for this 80W-90 WSP-M2C197-A (non-synthetic, by specification scope of material defintion) gear oil for the FRONT axle. My 1999, 2000, and 2001 CDs, just like Steve's, consistently cite the same 80W-90 WSP-M2C197-A specification for the front axle, in contradiction to the equally consistent reports of all the years of owner's manuals quoted in this thread that cite the 75W-90 WSP-M2C201-A as the requried spec for the front axle. Now, to top that off, Kevin has amended his earlier statement, and now reports that his dealer installed 80W-90 synthetic in his front axle. I wonder if there was another misunderstanding on that R.O., with someone making the assumption that because the rear was synthetic, the front was synthetic also? To date, I have not found a synthetic 80W-90 specification or part number approved and/or released by Ford. The 80W-90 spec cited above and in the service manuals is, to quote Ford verbatim, a "solvent refined petroleum base lubricant."

Just to explain some background for all this information, my interest and substantial research into this subject arose from my efforts to pinpoint the specification of the synthetic lubricant installed in Dana 135 axles on those F-550's with the Hi capacity towing package #535. Along the way, I amassed a lot of information on many other Ford axle lubricant specifications. Everything, of course, except what I was really looking for.



zahndok
Member
Member # 6330
Reged: 04/12/00
Posts: 559
Loc: So Cal
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660276 - 02/25/02 02:48 PM

The "they" was my owner's guide. I have the 02 DVD and will search it tonight.

Question: How is a specification synthetic or non-synthetic?

It's been well discussed in ATF threads that it is irrelevant if an ATF is synthetic or non synthetic when conforming to the Mercon Specification.

Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660340 - 02/25/02 03:55 PM

In reply to:

Question: How is a specification synthetic or non-synthetic? -- by Zahndok




______________

Ford Engineering Material Specification Action NLOOE10064524000

Material Name: LUBRICANT, SAE 75W-140, HYPOID GEAR, SYNTHETIC

Specification Number: WSL-M2C192-A

Scope: The material defined by this specification contains polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic hydrocarbon base lubricant.

_______________

Ford Engineering Material Specification Action NDOWI1025501000

Material Name: LUBRICANT, SAE 80W-90, REAR AXLE HYPOID, THERMALLY STABLE

Specification Number: WSP-M2C197-A

Scope: The material defined by this specification is a solvent refined petroleum base lubricant blended with thermally stable sulfur/phosphorus/nitrogen/boron extreme pressure additive.

_______________


No doubt that there are synthetic lubricants in existence capable of meeting or exceeding the various tested properties of Ford non-synthetic specifications, but the point here is to decipher Ford's intended requirements, based on specifications and lubricants available from Ford.

As explained to me by various lubricant engineers from major oil refineries that I have spoken with, it cannot be assumed that a lubricant, soley by virtue of the fact that it is synthetically based, is superior to or compatible with a given specification.



Bludool
Member
Member # 5884
Reged: 03/12/00
Posts: 282
Loc: USA
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660367 - 02/25/02 04:23 PM

So, after reading this highly informative thread, I personally am still confused, I am going to replace both front and rear soon when I get new Mag-Hitech diff cover, what should I use? I will be using all synthetics, amsoil probably. I have dana 80 rear and dana 60 front. A 2000 DRW 4x4.

StevePSD
Member
Member # 3145
Reged: 10/01/99
Posts: 441
Loc: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660631 - 02/25/02 08:28 PM

Just to slightly confuse matters again.....this time on the rear Dana 80 fitted to DRW trucks: here is a special service message (SSM) from Ford:

"99/2000 F350 Dually Rear Axle Chatter on Turns:
Ford now recommends using 75W-90 gear lubricant along with 8 ounces of friction modifier to correct and prevent a chatter condition on turns. SSM #14253"

Now, with the friction modifier they are taking about the 4.10 Limited-Slip gear set, but what about the non Limited-Slip 3.73's (that's what I have)? You could certainly read into the above message that 75W-90 would be OK to use (no friction modifier of course!). However it appears that no Ford Spec was given in the SSM, could it possibly be the same spec as the front Dana 60?

Ugh!


Robyn
Member
Member # 5486
Reged: 02/20/00
Posts: 1327
Loc: Northern California
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660941 - 02/26/02 01:43 AM

Steve, you sat there quietly all this time with knowledge of a specific SSM related to this topic, and yet held out on us! For shame!

SSM#14253 is quite likely the missing link to the puzzle that Zahndok presented for his rear Dana 80 axle with the updated '02 owner's manual recommendation. Combining the information you both have provided, things begin to make sense for the Dana 80 rear, at least. Maybe even logical. From what you both have said, it would appear that Ford now factory fills the Dana 80 axle with the same 75W90 oil recommended by this SSM. The 75W-90 intended for the rear Dana 80 axle is perhaps the Motocraft XY-75W90-GLS that Zahndok quoted, not the XY-75W90-TQL, which is for the front axle.

I have not personally verified this "logic" with anyone from Ford yet, but that is the picture I am seeing from the data just now presented. Perhaps Ford is using the same type of 75W-90 that meets the Dana 500,000 mile drain interval, and/or the Mack GO-J+ spec. That would be great, since I have 3 gallons of that state-of-the-art gear lubricant on the shelf.

StevePSD
Member
Member # 3145
Reged: 10/01/99
Posts: 441
Loc: Ridgecrest, CA
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660955 - 02/26/02 02:15 AM

Robyn,

Nope, not holding out. I just found it on Dieselman's site

Don't know when it came out, I'd like to find out and if this is the full text of the SSM or not. Does anyone have access to this info?

So where does this leave us.....can the 75W-90 gear lube for the Dana 80 also be used in the Dana 60, especially one that meets the Mack GO-J+ spec, even though it appers that the Ford spec is different between the front and rear. Is it safe to assume that Ford specd non-synthetic for the Dana 60 and synthetic for the Dana 80?

Oh well.




Jim_Murin
Member
Member # 19526
Reged: 02/02/02
Posts: 3
Loc: Minnesota
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#660960 - 02/26/02 02:32 AM

Bet you didn't think such an apparently simple question would be so difficult to answer.

I'm in the same situation. I have been following this thread because I am ready to install a Mag-Hytec cover on the Dana 80 axle. It's quite
puzzling that the '99 owners's manual and the '99 Workshop manual do not agree. In my case the owner's manual specifies 75W90 (p/n: XY-75W90-QL, spec: WSP-M2C201-A) while the workshop manual specifies 75W140 (p/n: F1TZ-19580-B, spec: WSL-M2C192-A).

In reply to:

"99/2000 F350 Dually Rear Axle Chatter on Turns:
Ford now recommends using 75W-90 gear lubricant along with 8 ounces of friction modifier to correct and prevent a chatter condition on turns. SSM #14253"




Interesting that you mention that. About two years ago I had that exact problem. The following is what was on the work order:

"DIAGNOSE. R&R DIFFERENTIAL COVER. DRAIN OLD FLUID AND CHANGE WITH SYNTHETIC HYPOID GEAR LUBE AND FRICTION MODIFIER PER SSM#11768"

The gear lube that was installed was p/n: F1TZ-19580-B which is the 75W140 gear oil. Different SSM's, different oil.

I've brought this up because of something Robyn alluded to in an earlier post. That is about the possibility that the Ford supplied
75W140 might cause the pinion seal the fail. This past fall I noticed some seepage from the front of the differential and took the truck to
my dealer to have it checked out. The following is from the work order:

"INSPECT. CLEAN OFF OVERFULL FLUID. NORMAL WEEPAGE...SEE TSB"

I questioned the service advisor about this and he said that it had been overfilled when they had worked on it for the chattering problem
and that it was not caused by a bad seal. It has not leaked since then and I did not give it any further thought until I started reading this
thread. Now I am wondering if the dealer didn't hide the real problem by simply removing some of the gear oil instead of replacing the seal.

I just checked the oil level in the differential and it is about 5/8" below the fill port. Shouldn't it be level with the bottom edge of the
fill port? The workshop manual is vague about what the level should be.

Jim



kreynol2Moderator
Administrator
Member # 3579
Reged: 10/31/99
Posts: 7618
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#661064 - 02/26/02 08:49 AM

Couple things need to be pointed out.

First, I had this service done in June. At that time, 75-140 WAS the correct oil for the rear and 80-90 for the front. The SSM noted says that if there is a chatter problem to change out the fluid, but there is no indication that 75-140 will hurt anything at all or that it is an "incorrect" fluid. I plan to have my dealer put a Mag-Hytec on for me and he said that when he fills it, he will put 75-90 in.

Second, I called a buncha dealers on this and 75-140 is what they said to put in. The parts dept. shows this as the recommended fluid as well. This indicates to me that 75-140 is just fine, since it still shows up as the appropriate oil for the axle for my model year truck. So there is no reason to conclude that 75-140 is somehow "wrong" or "inferior" or "will lead to bad things" on this axle. However, I had to point out SSM 14253 to them, to which they responded "are you experiencing any chattering going around corners"? Leaving aside obvious smart aleck answers concerning my spousal unit, I said no. In that case, they did not believe that putting 75-90 in would be anything more than preventative since if there was a real problem with the 75-140, the SSM would be not be couched in terms of the chatter problem - it would read "for all trucks" and the part number changed in the database. So I guess I don't see where the big issue is, here. We are probably justifiably confused by Ford's change in specifications, but it is not as if we are going to harm our trucks by putting in 75-140. After all, if I brought the truck in today and said "change the rear gear oil" and did not say that I was experiencing chatter, they would have put in 75-140 oil.

zahndok
Member
Member # 6330
Reged: 04/12/00
Posts: 559
Loc: So Cal
Re: Correct Gear Oil for Dana 60? new
#661402 - 02/26/02 02:27 PM

Called Dana Spicer to see what info they had to add to the fray. To begin with I know that it's Ford's call, not Dana's since they warranty the final product and they confirmed this by stating "They just put in the oil Ford tells them to put in". Having said that he confirmed that Ford does all the testing and had spec'd a new 75-90W oil for the LS chattering problem. Long story short the 75-90W is ok and 75-140W is OK if you have high heat. He related that the Dodge rear axle (detuned with 70 wheel ends) Dana 80 still specs dino 80-90W and they don't have any problems but the Ford guys tend to use their Dana 80's like small semi's and Ford went to the synthetic 75-140W to deal with this issue. His understanding was that less heat was generated in the axle with synthetic as well as the synthetic is able to take more heat. It was mentioned that newer vehicles designed for economy don't always get the airflow underneath to the axles for cooling they used to get on older vehicles. Especially with tool boxes, ect. He said Mobil 1 may be OK but has not been tested and put on the supplier list. When asked about pinion seals he said that the problem is from the additive package in the LS additive and that adding more LS additive to eliminate chatter was contributing to seal failures. Thus the new spec 75-90W so less additive can be used to reduce seal failure. He also noted that synthetics have smaller molecules and can leak past seals easier in any older axle or engine with higher mileage after previously using dino oil. He warned that overfilling the oil level height by using street ells, ect. can cause more heat, not less, by reducing surface cooling. My take was that if you have a LS then you want to go to 75-90W before adding more LS additive if you have chatter, unless you like seal failures. He did not think there was any problem with 75-90W in the non LS axles and there may even be a milage improvement. He also thought 75-140W is still good especially if you are towing at high CGVW's and generating alot of axle heat. For myself, with the MagHytec cover preventing high heat, I am going to try the 75-90W to strive for a little more milage. He did not know why there would be different Ford part #'s for Dana 60 vs. Dana 80 75-90W oil but did mention he had recently noticed errors in the manual regarding oil part #'s vs. specifications. He didn't elaborate and I felt I had taken enough of his time. The different suffixes for oil part #'s between front and rear axles may be additive package differences for the LS rear axle option.

Dave

Pages: 1



Contact Us TheDieselStop.Com

*
UBB.threads™ 6.3


All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies.
All else is Copyright 1997-2003 TheDieselStop.Com.
All Rights Reserved

TheDieselStop.Com Privacy Statement
Advertising on TheDieselStop.Com

This site is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company or International Truck and Engine Corporation.