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I have PM a few people on this site to get their opnions on this sound. Figured I would throw it out here in the open and see if anyone has any ideas. Sounds just like pre-ignition when accelerating. Just like an old 350 Chebby with the timing too far advanced or with a bad tank of low octane fuel. No codes are thrown. Propane off. Chip pulled. ICP tested good. Power is the same with no noticable differences. And still makes the same "gravel in the coffee can" sound.  It never has made this noise before. And it does it even after it is warmed up. |
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Have you done the pre pump and in tank mods? Mine had the same sounds that were totally eliminated by these simple mods? |
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I have done the pre-pump. I have a cab-chassie with the tank inbetween the frame rails where the spare is supposed to go. Is this tank any different than a normal truck? |
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I have that multiple ticking sound also and I assumed it was injectors. |
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Your truck is a 99 like mine which had MAJOR air intrusion issues, the foot on my mixing valve did not have a clamp and was a very loose connection that would let air into the system anytime it was exopsed. Put a clear hose pre pump and see if there is any air visible in the fuel supply when the fuel level is low, with the location of your fuel tank it is possible that there are more quick connects in the suction line than there are on a truck with the fuel tank in the "standard" location, if there are more quick connects I would remove them as well, if there is still air in the fuel supply after removing additional quick connects do the intank mods and remove the mixing chamber. |
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I had the same problem even though I had all the tank mods, the problem was the IDM and a injector. |
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Usally when the rattling and missfiring characteristics are prevalent Injector damage has already occured Although it may not be "Total"missfire The injector is weak and isnt delivering it's fuel shot properly in quanity and timing wise,These weak ones are extreemly hard to isolate or pin down and tend to degrade all of the Injectors in the same cyl bank making it very hard for Any of Fords equiptment to Find it Unless its a total missfire although sometimes youll luck out hopefully |
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Hutch, You the man, You hit it on the head. My truck acts up when the fuel is low. I have not dropped my tank yet, but now it's on the list.  I try to keep her full of fuel because of the wacko fuel gauge. Now would be a good for me to do the pre-pump mods'. More dumb questions to follow. I love this place. |
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I will crawl around underneath tomorrow and see if there are any QD that need to be replaced. Had company today  so had to be the gratious host.
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I've got the same problem. I just replaced the pre-pump hose with the 30R7 and didn't use a filter since I hadn't removed the mixing chamber yet. I never had the noise before but read alot that it was just good maintenance to replace the QD fittings because over time they sucked air. Kinda wish now that I wouldn't of done it. The only thing I could think it might be is I didn't get all fours clamps tight enough but I don't think thats the problem. I don't think the hose is collapsing because the truck still runs great, haven't lost any power or anything. Its a Gates 30R7 hose, can post the part number tomrrow. It just seems like the truck has alot more engine noise than before and makin the same noise as 1ton described. Any help would be appreciated. By the way mine is an early '99 |
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I have the same noise. But after major time and money spent on this dam* system. I just can't seem to get rid of the air. I have done all the tank mods including the hose instead of the brass compression fitting. Goodyear 3/8" instagrip hose with a 0.4" id, a Dahl filter unit w/10micron filter and I rounded and smoothed all fittings in the system including the pump inlet. I can lay under the truck idling and no air, but if I tap on the Dahl filter with the palm of my hand whala a bunch or bubbles start passing my short piece of clear tubing. I don't know what else to try. Is it possible that I got a bad batch of fuel and it has clogged my filter such that it is making a lot of restriction? Or maybe I just have a factory "super pump" and it is pulling to much restriction? I am grasping at straws here. Where and how much are restriction gauges. SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!! Hutch, Bob, anyone!
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How many miles do you have on the Dahl filter? |
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Only about 4K. |
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I have the same noise. But after major time and money spent on this dam* system. I just can't seem to get rid of the air. I have done all the tank mods including the hose instead of the brass compression fitting. Goodyear 3/8" instagrip hose with a 0.4" id, a Dahl filter unit w/10micron filter and I rounded and smoothed all fittings in the system including the pump inlet. I can lay under the truck idling and no air, but if I tap on the Dahl filter with the palm of my hand whala a bunch or bubbles start passing my short piece of clear tubing. I don't know what else to try. Is it possible that I got a bad batch of fuel and it has clogged my filter such that it is making a lot of restriction? Or maybe I just have a factory "super pump" and it is pulling to much restriction? I am grasping at straws here. Where and how much are restriction gauges. A few of us are looking into this off the forum. No hard answer yet. My Dahl was manufactured in 98, so with it sitting on the shelf over 4 years, the top O-Ring may not be sealing. http://community.webshots.com/album/59534629huxAsq |
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While I've been wondering about this "noise", I thought maybe I have a lean fuel condition. Doesn't blow smoke like it used to. I put in a 10K resistor today and it seems to help the spark-knock. I don't know if this adds more fuel or maybe points out the ICP as being bad. Now the only sound is from the "injectors?" You know, the sound ya get when you put in the 10K. It was too cold to check the Fuel tank hoses today. Supposed to be 65 tomorrow.  No one hears the sound but me. But, then again, I am the only one that drives it. |
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In reply to: But Hutch, I read HERE and HERE and HERE that you couldn't possibly be getting air in your system from there.
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I am having a problem like the spark-knock you guys are talking about but in addition my 99 F350 misses when cold on hills & sometimes on flat. Cold temps are about 30-50 wher I drive in so. cal. Before going to the dealer I drained the fuel filter & then changed the filter which was squeeky clean, but no change. The dealer verified the problem & changed the oil because they thought it was cavitating, no change. Then they replaced the injector o-rings & the problem got much worse. I then picked up the truck because the dealer seemed to have no clue & was going to start charging me, even though it was under warrantee. Anyway I put Amsoil AMD-16 fuel modifier in the tank & within a few miles the problem was solved. I am still concerned that something is going bad & may leave me stranded or die just beyond warrantee. I have 56k on the truck. I have the new airbox, otherwise stock. Have not had any tank or fuel line mods as you have discussed. Could I have air in the fuel or injector problems? Took the truck to another dealer but the problem only happens on hills after using the Amsoil, even though I last added it three tanks ago, so the dealer cannot duplicate it. The engine seems to be noisier than before even once it is warm. I am really tired of paying for rental cars & wasting my time. Any help appreciated. Chris |
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Anyone found out anything helpful on eliminateing the air out of our Dahl filters? FMTRVT any headway? I am going to rip my Dahl out this weekend AGAIN and see if I can find anything I think may be liberating/leaking air. Bob do you have any suggestions? |
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Jack (FMTRVT) and I have been attacking this problem for the past several weeks. The data suggest that the filter may be leaking. I sent my filter back to Bob Riley to check. Should arrive today. Jack has ordered new o-ring kit for his filter. Should know soon whether that fixes the problem. |
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Paul, I thought I was the only one with an air intrusion problem. Have seen no air coming into my filter but if I tap on the filter I see air coming out. I guess I will give Bob a call and see what he finds. Jack let me know how the new seals work out. Thanks again to Paul and Jack for all help with this. |
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There are several threads dealing with this issue you might want to look at. A link to them can be found in this thread, Got Air? ..... |
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In one of my long searches earlier this week, I ran across a few web pages that dealt with primary fuel filter installation. HERE is one of them. Basically, from my readings I learned that it is wise to fill the new filter element and bowl with clean fuel before attaching it to the filter head. Then start and run the engine at 2100 RPMs for about 2 minutes to clear out any remaining air. I don't really think that part will help though since our fuel pumps come on with the key and they are not driven by the engine. Turning the new element upside-down and opening the drain valve may help eliminate any remaining air - I haven't tried this yet. One more thing I learned is that primary fuel filters usually are not full when they are removed for servicing. This is for units that don't have the option to drain the fuel first. Just though I would add a little more fuel to the fire (no pun intended). |
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Paul, Thanks for posting that link I some how missed reading it when it came out. But I have spent much time rounded and polishing all connections from hose to fittings in my system. I also used my Lee re-loading chamfer tool packed with grease to chamfer the inlet of my pump. This worked great I would make a few turns clean off chips and repack with grease. No metal chips were left behind. And I have a chamfered full bore pump inlet now, it is not polished or rounded like all my other fittings but it is much better than the rolled edge that was originally there. Also I am not using the stock steel fuel lines on the frame rail so I have a straight shot of 3/8" goodyear instagrip with a 0.4" ID to the Dahl. The only bad curves I have are the ones that turn down to go into the straight fitting on top of the Dahl. This weekend I am going to do some more clearancing on the bottom of my Dahl lid to the outlet, I have already cleaned up the edges but now I am prepared to remove some serious material (like Jack did). Maybe this will help some but I fear it is another problem elsewhere. I have my fingers crossed that it is a seal problem and I can order some new ones to correct this air problem. Keep me posted on how this topic develops.  |
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Wombat, That's for the suggestion, but this is not an issue of initial filling of the filter. The filter can be filled and purged of all air, then several of us will go out for a 50 to 60 miles drive, flip the filter and the bowl will be 1/2 full of air. I've emptied 3.5 filters worth of air and have temporarily gone to a NAPA in-line filter until I can get the filter resealed. There is no real evidence of air before the filter looking through clear tubing. |
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Jack, Is your filter linearly above the tank and also above the pump? I am wondering if this might have something to do with it. I think and have learned from my web searches/research that the filter should be below the level in the tank and below the pump as well. In other words, if the filter is at a high point (as it is on my truck for protection from road debris) it might accumulate and retain air. This might be from entrained air as well. Did you look at the web site link I posted earlier? |
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Wombat, I have looked at the site and my filter head is only slight above the frame rail. My hoses run higher and then enter the filter in a gentle curve from above using STOR fittings. I previously used the 90* fittings which allowed the hose to come in a straight shot from the tank to the filter to the pump and still accumulated beau coup air. This occurred with a full tank as readily as one 1/4 full. Jack's filter is located an inch or two lower than mine and he too has problems. |
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Wombat, I haven't looked as yet; during the day I usually have time only for a quick look and messages. It could be the liberation of entrained air, but I did do a vacuum test and showed a leak of 10" Hg / 5 min. Did the test twice and check the pump first in the day and after the tests for vac retention. So it may be either liberation or leak (no fuel leaks out). We've really been trying to do this off forum until we figure it out and Bob Riley / Dahl get to look at Paul's filter. Could be one of us has one problem and the second filter a different one - just don't know at this point. But remember some people also showed issues with the Racor's. |
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I have the Racor 660 on my truck. And I have the air problem. I'll try to do some tinkering tomorrow evening and see what I come up with. |
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I highly recommend the 3/8" clear vinyl hose from Home Depot and some strong lighting. Look carefully at the hose where it comes off from the tank as well as before and after the filter. |
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Wombat, Now that work is over and I have more time ..... Your point is valid about the filter height and one situation I had may reinforce the air leak. I had left the vehicle on the lift overnight with the filter high and the tank low. The next morning I had a normal pocket of air from sitting overnight. Another situation that can be occurring is from the great observation that Paul made - small air bubbles coming from the tank side despite the removal of the Ford mixing chamber. It's possible that these small air bubbles accumulate in the filter on the dirty side of the filter. A wetted media will not pass air readily and the filter could keep the air in that location with only a small amount of fuel coming through the bottom of the element. As the element fills with dirt, the level of fuel will continue to rise and the air pocket will get smaller. However, it will always develop an air pocket and during normal running vibrations, release some air into the line. This is just speculation with some information from another filter manufacturers site on how their filter works. The Racor may also have the same issue, but I have not had a Racor in my hand. In order to see minor air bubbles in the line, you really need the clear Home Depot tubing and a very good light source, such as a drop light. Flashlight wont do it, at lease for these tired, old eyes. |
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Hey Jack, I already have the 3/8" clear line from HD. It works well and will be put to use again along with my 500W halogen work light  Your comments about the wetted media not passing air are right one. Now to figure out just where it's coming from... I hope it's not a crack where the pickup tube meets the top of the tank. I got to thinking (actually, I'm trying to think but nothin's happenin'   ) about the vent lines in the tank. Could they be clogged or not large enough to keep a zero vacuum on the tank? I doubt this is the case.I have done some more reading of stuff on the web and found many instances where folks have installed primary fuel filters above the tank (but still below the lifter pump). One guy said that he had problems with air until he filled the tank all the way, purged all the air from the filter (pre-filled filter first) by turning it upside down since he didn't have a bleed screw (I wish we had one of those) and opening the drain valve. He did this on his boat (has a lot more money than me  ). Looking back he wishes he would have gone to a more expensive filter even though he loves the availability of the replacement elements (he uses a Racor but I can't remember the model - it was a marine unit anyway). Also, he said that when he opened the drain valve (filter is upside-down) the fuel almost sparyed out with the decrease in air pressure - NOT vacuum! If you had air in the filter after letting the truck sit overnight, I wonder if the check valve is working. The Dahl does have one of those doesn't it? I know my Racor does not. But then you still have to have a way for air to get into the system.  Just talking out loud here. |
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I have been very suspicious of the check valve and have mentioned it perviously. I am going to try and take the ball and washer that holds it in out this weekend and see if it is the guilty culprit. Surly there is a check valve somewhere else in the system to prevent all the fuel from draining back to the tank after shutoff, maybe there is one in the pump? I will also try running the truck with various heights of the filter, as compared to pump and tank. I still would love to believe that it is a seal problem. When mine is disassembled the large square rubber ring looks flush with the metal around it. I don't like the fact that the rubber ring doesn't have much squeeze in it and you can't just tighten it like a spin on filter could. I am also going to look into lapping the seal surface on the underside of the lid to make sure it is flat and very smooth at least a 63 finish or so. While I am on the subject of seals has anyone seen air in the threads on the bottom of the bowl, the ones that the drain screws into. That o-ring doesn't have any kind of recess or anything on the bottom of the bowl. I guess it just makes a sort of half-a$$ face seal. |
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I concur completely with your assessment of the stopcock o-ring. After inverting and bleeding the air I can sometimes see air in the threads that gently oscillates, but I have NEVER seen air passing from this seal to the bowl. I am speculating that the seal around the top or the seal between the acrylic bowl and the metal filter housing is leaking. I see rare bubbles coming from the diffuser cone but not enough to account for the air accumulation in so few miles. If you want ot experiment, pull your filter and see if it will hold a vacuum. There is supposed to be a check valve in the pump. Disconnecting the hose from the pump intake results in very little fuel loss. My wife can testify that the shower I took taking the QC fitting off the pump outlet indicates the valve is in the pump not further upstream. I wonder if they make a larger size spray bottle for simple green?
Edited by haul_n_horses2 (01/09/03 08:08 PM) |
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I wonder if they make a larger size spray bottle for simple green? --------------------------------------------------------- I buy it by the gallon |
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Wombat, Bob had mentioned to Paul the possibility of air coming through at the weld on the top of the bulkhead. I checked my entire pickup with a vacuum pump and it was fine - held 5 minutes at low and high vac. You're results may vary. Your point about the tank vacuum is a good one, but I don't think that I had my vent hose crimped while running, and I certainly did not when I was doing these tests on the lift. Pics On my 2001, the venting check valve is located on the hose at the front of the tank. It looks like a little dangle off the hose TEE. But your point is very good. If people had done the in tank mods and had poor results, one culpret could be the closing of this vent hose. I'm not sure about the check valve in the filter. The pumps (older ones with check valves or new ones without per reported) do prevent air or diesel flow in either direction when off. That's why the retained pressure up at the motor if you've blocked off the OE pressure regulator. Again, I'm not trying to throw stones at the Dahl, as others here have not had this issue. It may be due to aging of my filter (98) on the shelf or a minor manufacturing problem. As spoff99 noted, I'm also not that crazy about the way the top seal is clamped, or how much compression it has. I received the new O-ring kit for the unit tonight, so tomorrow I'll be vacuum and pressure testing the Dahl, hopefully replacing one O-ring at a time. I really hope it is a simple seal leak and not a design issue as it sure pulled water out of my fuel. (If you've read the earlier thread on the filter testing, this is why I did this whole thing). The Racor's that I am used to are not what you guys are using from DIS, etc. Boats typically use the 500 / 900 / 1000 turbine series, which do the same thing in the bowl area for debris and water removal, but have a T nut at the top for compressing the seal at the lid. You need room for these, but pulling one down every 5 or 10k miles is not a big deal. Haul_n_horses2, I did look closely at mine when I had the filter only under vacuum and did not see any seepage of air bubbles in the petcock area. Of course we are all dealing with only 1 example each, and we may have different problems. |
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I did the rework on the Dahl on Friday night, although it wasn't the way I expected. During the middle of the work I got a call from my wife about a problem at her work, and since I the maintenance engineer there, had to abbreviate what I was doing. I had checked the hoses first for vacuum leaks and found none. Then as I was going to do a part by part replacement, got the call, so I ended up replacing all of the O-Rings from Dahl's rebuild kit at once. End of the story is that the filter is now able to hold a vacuum. Have some minor pics, but it's not what I wanted to do. I have not had a chance to put the Dahl back on, which may not happen until Wed. So I won't be able to tell in my case if the air I had was from the air leak or if in my situation the filter acts like an air bubble accumulator. |
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I guess I am ordering a seal kit. It was in the 30's and raining all weekend here in Houston, so I didn't get to do any of the experiments I had planned.  But hope to get them done soon. Let us know how it runs once you put it back on the truck.  |
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spoff99, While I don't seem to have the problem that Paul and Jack have been having, I've also been trying to help in my limited way to provide them data and was going to get some data on the amount of air over some long term driving. I just got back from a 1850mi trip down to Fl. and back and I flipped my Dahl just before leaving and was going to check the air collected when I got to Fl. and then again when I got back home. Unfortunately, I couldn't check at the 1/2 point, but after 1850 miles I had air in the bowl when the filter was inverted that came down to about 1/2 to 3/4 inch above the bottom of the yellow cone which I understand Paul saw after only 100 to 150 miles. Also, I understand that the trapped air could extend down past the top of the inverted cone which was definitely not what I had after almost 2Kmi of driving. As Jack has noted it does takes some doing to get all the air that is trapped in the metal portion of the housing up into the bowl. I got about 75% out with the first flip and rotating the filter while inverted, but had to bang, jiggle, and rotate the filter to get the last 25% out and took a couple of minutes. I only make this post to add to the informational data based being developed ... It doesn't appear that I have the problem that you, Paul and Jack have. FWIW my filter has been in for over 8 mos and has around 13K on it and has the 10micron element. Larry |
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Larry thanks for the data. I don't have near that much air in mine when I flip it. But I may go through a different procedure when I flip mine than you, which may cause different results. First I drain all the water and crud I can out of the bowl, then lower the entire filter assembly and swirl it around, right side up, in efforts to get some of the water droplets that stick to the side of the bowl down to the petcock so I can drain them also. I just don't like the fact of flipping my filter and letting all that crud that the filter has done such a good job trapping get back up in the fuel stream and filter area. I may be letting some of my air out of the filter and into the fuel lines by doing this. After this I flip it and there is less than an inch of air from the top to the thread of the petcock. I think my air is getting out of the filter before I have a chance to let it out by flipping. As I have stated before I can gently tap on the filter with the palm of my hand and get all sorts of air passing through my outlet hose, I am talking huge bubbles, and a lot of them. I hope that the air I see by wiggling the filter is due a bad seal letting air in, this can be easily fixed. If it is a design error then we may be "flippin fools for life"  . I am going to order a seal kit today, I will keep you guys posted on how it turns out. By the way Jack have you reinstalled your filter yet since the vacuum test passed?????? Let us know how it went. |
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spoff99, The main reason, I'm not overlly worried with what I see is that I know I get random transient air coming up from the tank as documented in my observations #6 and #7 HERE. Quite frankly I was surprised at how little was in my filter after almost 2,000 miles. Also, I can bang all I want on my filter with the engine running and don't see any additional air in my sight glass. Larry |
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spoff99, Not as yet. Planned on Wed, but that may be held off until Thur if I don't get a break tonight. Larry, You may not be seeing the bubbles when hitting the filter because the area surrounding the element is not completely filled with air like mine was. Or may not be that at all. Maybe hitting it was another way to open where the air leak was (loss of vacuum). |
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In reply to: I see what you're saying, but if spoff99 had less air than I had and he could tap his filter and see bubbles I thought I might be able too. The reason I posted exactly how much air I had was to see what others have observed. One individual via PM has indicated he has seen air well below the top of the cone(i.e. the double cone area where the fuel from the tank enters the bowl) when the filter is inverted. Can you quantify how much air you get when you see the air being passed out of the filter and then going to the pump. I guess I'm trying to quantify how much air can be trapped before the filter is full and any additional air is then passed onto the pump. Like spoff99 I kind of don't like always flipping my Dahl and having the sediment in the bowl jostled around, but since all this is on the dirty side it shouldn't effect anything. Larry |
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Well Bob Riley tested mine. Unfortunately, his Mityvac has a small leak so it lost some pressure which he could hear around the gauge on his hand pump. He pressurized it (I know, I know it is not quite the same thing) and immersed it in soapy water with no stream of bubbles. Anyway, this one is going off to Baldwin/Dahl and he is sending me a new one. We shall see if there is a difference in the air accumulation. If not, it must be my plumbing. If so, it must be the filter. |
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Bob, You can still pull a vacuum and put a secondary guage upstream from the pump, then clamp the hose between the pump and guage so it doesn't bleed down at the pump guage. Also silicon sealer around the parting areas works. Pressure may not show the same situation as a vacuum, as the system is working under that mode. But, haul_n_horses2, you may be right, if it's acting as an accumulator to air from the tank. That does not mean that it's your tank to filter plumbing, however. |
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Speaking of silicon sealer. Jack when you put your filter back togather did you put your seals in dry or did you use, diesel, oil, grease, silicon, ect.? My redress kit should be on its way soon.  Boy I hope this works. I can just see the miles rolling off my injectors with the amount of air that is going through them.
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I did them wetted with diesel. |
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Spark-Knock sound?
Re: Spark-Knock sound?
Re: Spark-Knock sound?
