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01 42K miles. I live in the Californa desert 50 degrees is our low temp so it is not the Cold weather. I ran two tanks of double dose (as recomended on bottle) injector cleaner cetane booster. It didn't start for my wife today. When it did this on Christmas I pushed in the air reset (yellow button) on the air filter and it fired right up. Don't know if it was the reset or the prayer? Dan P.S. batteries replaced 3 mo ago and problem started after that. Here is what I did. When It did not start christmas day. It ocurred to Me. The Air restriction valve. I pushed it It started. I messed with it tonight it started then not messed with the air restriction gauge and it started. So I took off the little yellow top to look at it. It seemed jammed. I put it back together and. It started 5 times in a row. I think I solved It. Anyone heard of this. Edited by druz (02/05/04 11:16 PM) |
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pull your cables off and clean and lube them. may also be part of the cps syndrome, do a search on cps. |
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Weak batteries  I've seen problems on here that the engine will crank, but it isnt fast enough to fire the injectors.
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A loose cable? The Passenger side battery cable was loose. I tightened It. Does the air pressure restriction gauge have anything to do with this? Dan |
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Dan, Welcome to TheDieselStop Take the time to browse thru the forums and other areas of the site and you'll learn a lot. Check the FAQ link at the top of the page. Quote: Probably not, unless your air filter is completely plugged. The filter restriction gage is usually just a worthless appendage. You should be checking your filter on a fairly regular basis. The loose battery cable is probably your culprit. Can't get the voltage thru to the starter to spin it over fast enough. |
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make sure your glowplugs are glowplugging. |
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Opps seen the battery thing after the fact. 
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I really believe it was the Air Restriction Gauge, It does seem to do nothing but when I took the off. It seemed jammed I loosed it, It is tiny. But now it starts fine. What is it's purpose? It has allway's turned plenty fast to fire. I don't know. Any Ideas Dan |
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The air restriction gauge has nothing to do with the truck starting, all it is for is to give you an idea of the condition of your air filter and it does a poor job of that. It has absolutly no effect on the way the truck runs. Chris |
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The air restriction gauge is nothing more than a vacuum indicator, there is no way it can have anything to do with your starting difficulty. Listen to the reply about glow plugs, the fact that you turned off key and worked on the indicator and the turned on key again may have cycled the glow plug realy that one more time it took for it to make connection and power the glow plugs. When the glow plug relay has failed on two different PSD engined trcuks I owned, I could get them to start by cycling ignition switch with blower fan on and when I cycled the switch and heard the fan slow down I knew the glow plugs had been powered and it would start on that try. I only used the fan as an indicator of the large battery drain that glow plugs place on battery when they are actually being powered, fan had no bearing on the glow plugs working. |
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I really dont think its the restriction gauge. It really doesnt do anything. I dont even look at mine anymore. Seems useless. If you pull out the restriction gauge you will see that its really nothing, just a vaccuum sensing gauge.
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Try plugging the truck in for a couple of hours. If it starts okay it's probably a bad glow plug relay. I agree with checking your battery cables and connections since the problem started after you replaced the batteries. Maybe you got a bad battery?? |
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While the glow plugs might not be working, I'd still think it should start at 50 deg w/o them. My volt gauge barely drops when the glow plugs are on (new relay too), which is giving me the impression I don't have many working, and my truck still starts in pretty darn cold weather (zero), with out too much cranking. |
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Quote: I hate to laugh, BUT THAT IS THE FUNNIEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!!!   Here is a test for you to reasure yourself it is not the air res. gauge: 1)Take the air restriction gauge off. 2)Place it on a hard surface. 3)Smash it with a large hammer. 4)Put it back on truck. I guarantee that the truck will not be affected!!!!!!!!!! Those gauges are WORTHLESS because they DO NOT tell you if your filter needs to be changed! SO, they do absolutely NOTHING! THANKS FOR THE LAUGH! |
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The filter restriction gage is usually just a worthless appendage. You should be checking your filter on a fairly regular basis. The loose battery cable is probably your culprit. Can't get the voltage thru to the starter to spin it over fast enough. The filter restriction gauge is one of the most accurate devices for measuring the filter element restriction or for that matter the entire intake system up to that point. Checking the air filter by removing it for inspection is a very good way to shorten engine life. Filter gaskets take a compression set while clamped into the filter housing. When the filter is removed, the gasket does not return to its original dimensions/shape. When you reinstall the filter, the housing cover no longer clamps the gasket as tightly as it did when new and undisturbed. On a turbocharged engine, the usual maximum restriction for filter change is 25 inches (of water) or about 1 PSI drop in inlet air pressure. Change air filter at 20 inches water, at least. Changing filters by looks is good for filter sales of whatever brand you use, but not good for your engine. New air filters do not filter better than used ones. It is the other way around. When you install a new air filter, it will pass dust until a small amount is trapped by the filter fibers. Then, the efficiency goes up. The OVERALL EFFICIENCY of ANY typical paper element is 99.95% to 99.99%. The initial efficiency (new element < 25 hours of running) of the same paper filter is now typically 99.2%. Does not sound like much does it? Look at it this way, if your intake system gets 100 ounces of dust in the full life cycle of the element (changed at 20 -25 inches restriction)it will have stopped 99.99 ounces of that dust, 0.01 ounces got through into the cylinders. If, on the other hand, you change elements by looks where typical restriction is 99.3 or 99.4%, you are allowing 0.6 to 0.7 ounces of dust to enter the cylinders. Any engine of the displacement of a 7.3L or even the 6.0L will suffer major ring and cylinder wall wear requiring overhaul with as little as 3 ounces of dust. The choice is yours, change the filters sooner because they look bad and change your engine because of bore wear. OR Change your air filter less and prolong the life of the cylinder bore, not to mention the turbo comressor wheel and valve guides. For those who have altered their ECM for more HP likely will counter that you need the increased airflow to get that HP. No doubt you do. To keep your expected engine life, you need to run a bigger air cleaner. But that is not the answer I expect you will want to accept as there no room for a bigger filter. |
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Quote: Quote:Quote: Diezel_Cowboy, I guess I wasn't emphatic enough when I posted the above. Thank YOU for the laugh. 
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Quote: The filter restriction gauge is one of the most accurate devices for measuring the filter element restriction or for that matter the entire intake system up to that point. Checking the air filter by removing it for inspection is a very good way to shorten engine life. Filter gaskets take a compression set while clamped into the filter housing. When the filter is removed, the gasket does not return to its original dimensions/shape. When you reinstall the filter, the housing cover no longer clamps the gasket as tightly as it did when new and undisturbed. On a turbocharged engine, the usual maximum restriction for filter change is 25 inches (of water) or about 1 PSI drop in inlet air pressure. Change air filter at 20 inches water, at least. Changing filters by looks is good for filter sales of whatever brand you use, but not good for your engine. New air filters do not filter better than used ones. It is the other way around. When you install a new air filter, it will pass dust until a small amount is trapped by the filter fibers. Then, the efficiency goes up. The OVERALL EFFICIENCY of ANY typical paper element is 99.95% to 99.99%. The initial efficiency (new element < 25 hours of running) of the same paper filter is now typically 99.2%. Does not sound like much does it? Look at it this way, if your intake system gets 100 ounces of dust in the full life cycle of the element (changed at 20 -25 inches restriction)it will have stopped 99.99 ounces of that dust, 0.01 ounces got through into the cylinders. If, on the other hand, you change elements by looks where typical restriction is 99.3 or 99.4%, you are allowing 0.6 to 0.7 ounces of dust to enter the cylinders. Any engine of the displacement of a 7.3L or even the 6.0L will suffer major ring and cylinder wall wear requiring overhaul with as little as 3 ounces of dust. The choice is yours, change the filters sooner because they look bad and change your engine because of bore wear. OR Change your air filter less and prolong the life of the cylinder bore, not to mention the turbo comressor wheel and valve guides. For those who have altered their ECM for more HP likely will counter that you need the increased airflow to get that HP. No doubt you do. To keep your expected engine life, you need to run a bigger air cleaner. But that is not the answer I expect you will want to accept as there no room for a bigger filter. Spike45 OK, FINE I was basically telling him that his filter restriction gauge was probably NOT the cause of his slow starting. Whether the filter restriction gauge ACTUALLY WORKS is a matter of debate. I didn't define "regular" as every two weeks either as you seem to imply that I did. |
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Quote: Evidently, Ford specs the max restriction of the 25inH20 at the outlet of the filter box. Can you shed any light on what other type engines also use this 25inH20 figure and where it is to be measured. Quote: That's my plan. I know my restriction guage on my Van is working and while it's not at the outlet of the air box but as shown in the picture HERE. When I measured my factory air restriction gauge using my home made water manometer and reported my results HERE and you can see an interesting correlation between the 75/100 % markings and the 22/27 inH20 and Gary's 20inH20 change figure and 25inH20 max. I can't explain it, but I think at least in the Van and possibly some other air box configurations they might have specified this 25 but forgot to calibrate the gauge for location. Under heavy acceleration I see around 15 to 20inH20 restriction at the outlet of my air box, but my dang factory filter minder has never moved. I guess I could moved my real calibrated gauge to the area of my factory filter minder and resolve this aberration, but since I now measure things correctly and accurately, I'll just go by the real gauge and ignore that factory filter minder. Larry keeper of the "little secrets"  |
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Regardless of engine displacement the following maximum restriction limits are in force, recommended change limit may be less: Turbocharged: Caterpillar all, Cummins 8.3L and up, Detroit Diesel 40,50,60 Series, Cummins B 5.9 and ISB, International D444E, D466E that I know of, not sure about new 6.0L Naturally aspirated (non turbo): Detroit Diesel 2-stroke 53, 71, 92 Series, Cat 3208 NA, would guess that original 6.9 and 7.3L diesel in Ford was this way Filter Minder is made by Engineered Products of Waterloo, IA http://www.filterminder.com/fleet/index.asp They custom manufacture for Ford, Caterpillar, International, etc. The correct pressure tap location is as close to the clean air outlet piping as possible. Not recommended to mount close to the turbo as it will show higher than actual restriction due to airflow "friction" of the piping. Also, restriction gauges use fittings that have small orifices to smooth out the varying clean air pressure surges when an engine is accelerating under load (turbo especially). Looks like the air filter on your van does not allow much leeway between the clean air outlet and turbo compressor inlet. That may be why the restriction seen may vary so much. Looking at your AF box and the location of the minder relative to turbo inlet, I can see why it might show 20 inches under hard acceleration. Is the engine stock or modified to produce more HP? More airflow to match more fuel means the air filter may be too small. It should be sized for stock HP engine. BTW, the easiest method for testing Filter Minder is to remove it. Suck on the small sensing fitting. It should move up and lock at some level depending on hard you try. Then, pressing the yellow button on the bottom, it should smoothly go back to the lowest position which generally is less than 7 inches or 6 inches water. If it does not latch and hold the restriction reading, it is broke. Is there a small brass fitting with what looks like granular brass? It is the coarse filter that provides some protection should the minder get broken off. Remove the fitting to examine the small hole on the other side. You should be able to blow through it. If not, it is plugged and the minder will never sense clean air restriction. |
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OK, FINE I was basically telling him that his filter restriction gauge was probably NOT the cause of his slow starting. Whether the filter restriction gauge ACTUALLY WORKS is a matter of debate. I didn't define "regular" as every two weeks either as you seem to imply that I did. You are absolutely correct about the hard starting issue. Just one of those odd things that happens, I should know about some coincedences like that! I know from personal experience with some heavy duty end users that they actually do inspect air cleaners weekly and even one who did so daily. The end result in his case was a Cat 3406C was dusted and required $18,000 to repair. I work with Filter Minders frequently and on applications more severe in dust environments than typical PSD use. They do work. They need to be tested for correct operation on a regular basis. They can be damaged by some types of common cleaning solutions used on engines. Here is a website for Filter Minder. http://www.filterminder.com/fleet/index.asp See what they have to say about air filter plugging, etc. |
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Thanks and I assume the numbers for all those engines mentioned were that 25inH20 max you indicated;. Quote: That pic is sort of deceiving and the stock filter reminder is not really at the clean air outlet piping and that's why I installed an actual in cab guage. It's location as I said is at the outlet of the stock air box in the very start of the clear air outlet piping and as far away as possible from the turbo. My inlet piping is about 20 or 24 inches long. The outlet of my stock air box and start of the clean air outlet pipling is bascially over the water pump and the end at the turbo inlet is very near the rear of the engine as shown HERE. Quote: That 15 to 20 inH20 is not from the filter minder, it is from THIS GAUGE and varies under hard acceleration pretty much with the boost and max boost for my stock engine is around 17psi. As I said, I've never had my filter minder move and I know it works. I don't have much experience towing with it yet, but at all normal cruising including Interstate type hills the max I see is around 3 to 5 in H20. Also FWIW, I use the Amsoil 2 stage foam air filters with good oil analysis each oil change and the Van uses two each approximately the same physical size as the stock F-series filter. HERE is a pic of the air filters on a Van. Also, the later Vans like mine get the air from in front of all the radiators and not from the engine compartment. Larry keeper of the "little secrets" |
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I had an 01 excursion...mine was hard starting from day 1...mine had something to do with the high pressure oil pump...and a check valve on the high pressure side not letting pressure build up to put fuel to the injectors....after they fixed the relief valve at about 35000 mile the high pressure oil pump started leaking...no problems after that....
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From the looks of the pictures of gauges, Larry, I have only one question? Do you need a pilot's license to fly this thing? How does the foam two stage filter work? Is it a two layer approach or what? |
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Quote: Gary, No Pilot's licence necessary just a thirst for knowledge is fine  and as far as the filters, I can get them about as cheap as the paper and they might not be quite as good ... I like to think they are better but . I do an oil analysis every oil change and you can see my results as A002 HERE and while not perfect ... would like to see SI in the 4,5, 6 range at 4-5Kmi they are acceptable. Also, as far as I'm aware I am the only TDS member to have a ferrographic oil analysis done CLICK HERE. One other member has had a similar analysis done, but that was for fuel and I'm going to do the ferrographic like once every year or so and am due with this next change since the next time might be after another 10K or so miles later this year ... thanks for reminding me ... need to get busy and order the sampling kit. Many here call me or am sure consider me "anal" but that's O.K. by me I enjoy it and if you want to talk about filters you ain't seen nothing yet ... surf around my WEBSHOTS links  Larry keeper of the "little secrets" |
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Quote: I TOTALLY DISAGREE with this! I would never let my filter get dirty enough to register on that useless gauge! Oh did i say never...........cause i meant NEVER! Running your engine with that high of an air restriction can not be good. I choose to change the filter at a given interval instead of relying on a gauge that i can not trust. I dont check the air filter............I replace it while i have it out! If you have to check it may as well change it! That stupid gauge would never be able to tell me when to change my filter and nobody is going to convince me otherwise! I realize you probably work for the company that makes the gauges and have to back them up but you wont change my mind. I would NOT recommend to any of my friends (maybe my enemies) to change the filter when the gauge says so! Besides the original post was not an issue of whether or not the gauge works or not! It was a question as to whether or not the gauge would have anything to do with starting the vehicle! GUESS WHAT it doesnt! NOT a thing! That is the point i was trying to make! Adam |
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Quote: Even if you were, I had to do it.......couldnt resist! YOU are very welcome! Adam |
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The silicon (Si) numbers are not bad except for the 108 and 98. For those who do not know, analytical ferrography is an excellent tool for determining the nature of a failure by analyzing the size and shape of the larger particles found in oil. That is its most often used format. It can be used to determine if undue wear is taking place as I think in the case of Larry. It is not cheap. BTW, Larry, have you tried to install a Filter Minder (in addition to your gauge setup) as a way to trap total accumulating restriction so you can see at a glance the state of filter restriction? |
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Quote: That 108 was for a different member and the 98 Si was my first analysis at about 1,000 miles and had all the residual casting junk in there which was finally flushed out after my second change. And you're right, the ferro is like $90 so I normally just do the run of the mill $20 spectro analysis since I'm not running any sort of extended drain program just a 4,000 to 4,500 oil change interval with dino oil. I saw the value in the one ferro I had done and thought that would be a good addition to my oil analysis program like every year or two and/or every 30K miles since it does IMO "tell the rest of the story". Quote: They're both installed, and both are functional from 6 in H20 or so to 27inH20 in the case of the filter minder, it's just I'm convinced the filter minder location is wrong for the calibration of it in my particular air intake system configuration. The actual gauge is in the cab and monitors the air restriction at the start of the clean air intake tubing continuously as I'm driving so I can determine trends over time. I agree with you that at least my filter minder is quite sensitive and accurate and makes me wonder if those that never see it move might not have air intake issues that they are unaware of. However, it is fairly simple to check it so I don't really understand these "useless" or "piece of junk" statements w/o any testing the darn thing. I am beginning to feel that some filter minders might be in the wrong air intake position for their calibration or might have a maintenance issue, then then again this is no different than changing your fuel filter, oil filter, etc. ... it's maintenance and as you've said these types of systems whether the "filter minder" or some other air restriction monitoring device is a standard practice from my research on all big, expensive diesel equipment to ensure proper and cost effective looooooooong term operation that makes our PSDs pale in comparison. Larry keeper of the "little secrets" |
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Adam, your screen name says it all! I do not work for Engineered Products nor do I work for Donaldson who likely made the Ford original equipment air filter system to Ford's specifications. I see so many emotional responses on the topic of air filter maintenance and the apparent belief that Ford is trying rip off PSD owners by using a restriction gauge. Most who read these forums are owners of a very fine truck and engine (PSD) and the older vintage International engines. I would bet that most think that Ford does a really good job or else you would not be so devoted to your trucks. So why is it that some are so willing to bash Ford for supplying a method to maximize air fitler life!? Judging by this particular post of yours, Adam, you really think that. I can agree from Larry M's post about the relocation of the restriction tap, that Ford may have goofed on this one. But their intentions to help you are good. BTW, Adam, the air filter manufacturers will thank you for your loyal support of changing more frequently than necessary. It increases their profits at your expense. |
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Quote: umm then explain to me why my thing said my filter was perfectly clean no restriction at all whenever i had been offroading for a whole weekend and i get home and opened my filter housing to see the filter was a giant ball of dirt? the thing doesnt work at all its just a pretty little gadget to make you feel important just like all the gauges on the dash they dont work for crap |
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I realize this is an old thread.. I would like to point out a couple of things though... Seen recomendation of 30k between changes.. Use and conditions should be the basis for replacement intervals,not milage..Large pecentage of my customers are ranchers and farmers and at times filters are needing to be changed in less than a month.. There has been a number of times on '99up psd's that I have found filters curled up and pulled out of housing on one corner,leaving several square inches of unfiltered area in airbox and also exposing all the dirt that the filter had previosly captured to be sucked into engine... Always had the appearance of having been wet at some time in the past... Although,I am lacking scientific research to back my opinion,I don't believe that the resriction guage is going to tell anything there,regardless of how accurate they are... I also am of the opinion,again not backed,that this may allow more dirt/sand to pass than replacing filter prematurely... Somehow,I also believe I am not the only one who has seen this happen... |
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Quote: If it doesn't work it has something wrong with it and needs to be repaired. This is like having a flat and saying tires are no good. |
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Larry & Kevin: Boy, this is an old thread, where'd it come from? Anyhow, my point is that the filter minders are NOT broken, they really are not working in this application. I am one of the lucky ones who have seen a filter (Y2K before the box-with-a-post and deep pleated filter service letter upgrades) sucked into a ball after coming down a long, dusty road. Unfortunately, I saw it on my own engine at about 25k, and have had increased oil consumption after being "dusted" by the usual FoMoCo lack or engineering. Why do I say that? the filter minder had not moved. What good is a maintenance minder if it doesn't even register before total failure? Pat |
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I'll stick my neck out, too, to say that I believe what I read about differential pressure drop being a much better indicator of filter condition than ones' own eyes. Nothing scientific, strictly anecdotal: I ran down to Dallas about three weeks ago to buy a used 2000 PSD. Picked it up in Arlington. Broker assurred me that it had been "serviced". Ran up to McKinney, about forty miles north to spend the night, and also top off fuel for the return trip to Los Angeles the following morning. While fueling, noticed my FilterMinder pegged. I thought it odd, because the truck ran fine on the trip up to McKinney on the Dallas freeway system. I just re-set it, and thought nothing. The next morning before setting out to L.A., I popped the hood to take one last over-all look at things like hoses and belts. There it was! The FilterMinder was pegged again. I had only driven from the truck stop to the hotel! I opened up the air box to find the small amount of leaves and crud that is pretty normal. I pulled out the filter and it didn't look all that dirty, though I couldn't see light through it. I put it back in, re-set the 'Minder, and drove to a Napa, where I bought a filter. That cured the FilterMinder tripping. It WAS a clogged filter, and the FilterMinder was just doing its job. This is the first vehicle I have owned that came with one from the factory, but both my '89 F250 and my wife's Honda Odyssey have them. I bought them on eBay and installed them in appropriate locations. I'm a believer. Used correctly, these things work well. My credentials? Though this is my first diesel, I've been twisting my own wrenches since I was fifteen. I'm fifty-seven. You do the math. I'm not some kid that's just having others bolting on chrome pieces to make his truck go fast. Only thing that I don't do is go through auto trannies. Someday I may go through the 444, but I hope I get lotsa' miles out of it before then. Keeping the intake particulate count waaaay low will help. I intend to install a Ford Severe Duty air filter which incorporates the new Donaldson technology to help insure that. The knowledge I'm acquiring here from others will help too! So, yea, one more guy stood up to support Spike45. Kids. They know it all! SpringerPop |
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Quote: If you are refering to Spike, I think he is a Engineer at Fleetguard. |
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Quote: Pat, All I was saying is that having a real time air restriction guage like I installed HERE has been very informative and an extremely good investment IMO. When towing and I get on it I can see the air restriction jump up quickly to around the 15in H20 range when the boost is pushing 20psi and then decrease under the same boost to around 9 to 10 inH20 when the pull steadys out and that is like 5 seconds or so. Normally on the flats it stays in the 5 inH20 range. My Amsoil air filters now look nasty at around 15K use but the restriction hasn't increased and the OA is spot on. I'm a firm believer in not changing air filters on looks, but when the facts tell you to do it. Just like lower tranny temps more cleaning based on visual only info might not be the best thing to do. Larry, keeper of the "little secrets" CLICK HERE
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Larry, Since you have both, how much vacuum do you see before the FoMoCo restriction gauge gets into the yellow? The gauge in my 1994 IDI worked great. I've never seen the one in my '02 PSD move a bit. DD |
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Quote:Quote: No, as it clearly says in my post, I am supporting Spike45. There was a post earlier that basically told him that he was wrong because nobody stood up to support him. He wasn't wrong at all, and so I "stood up" with my post. SpringerPop |
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7.3 cranks takes 7 to 10 seconds to start. SOLVED SOLVED YEA YEA!
Re: 7.3 cranks takes 7 to 10 seconds to start. sometimes no start ???
Re: It starts now....
Re: 7.3 cranks takes 7 to 10 seconds to start. sometimes no start ???
