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m1guy
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Member # 30220
Reged: 03/06/03
Posts: 386
Loc: Horn Lake, MS
Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling?
#1312154 - 07/23/03 09:18 PM

When the Duramax first advertised piston spray cooling, I thought it was something new and high-tech. Then I found out that the PSD and, I think, (correct me if i'm wrong here) also the 6.9 and 7.3 diesels before it already had this. I know the latest version of the 5.9 has it, but i'm not sure about the previous ones. Did they?

Shaffer
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Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 1194
Loc: Carson City, NV
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1312160 - 07/23/03 09:21 PM

I know that the big Cummins engines have had piston cooling for a long time, but I don't know when the 5.9 got it. I think the 12 valve version had it, but I don't know if it was on all years.

m1guy
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Reged: 03/06/03
Posts: 386
Loc: Horn Lake, MS
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1312237 - 07/23/03 09:57 PM

The other day, I was looking at the bottom end of an N14 at my friend's shop. I'm not sure if it had piston cooling. I wish I had thought to look for that. I wasn't sure if the bigger engines had it or not. I still don't know about the 5.9.

L. Wilkinson
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Reged: 03/11/01
Posts: 820
Loc: Abbotsford, Canada
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1312294 - 07/23/03 10:23 PM

If you look on the passenger side of the N14 block you will notice 6 round fixtures bolted inwards, these are the cooling nozzles. I believe every class 8 engine uses them, as heat control of the piston is critical. If you find an engine not using them, its either got some really radical advanced technology, or its not that well designed!

Pit_bull
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Member # 32759
Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 61
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1312343 - 07/23/03 10:50 PM

Mine has it and it is a 2002 HO.

BigDaddyT
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Reged: 03/05/03
Posts: 2442
Loc: Eagle River,Alaska
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1312649 - 07/24/03 04:57 AM

The 5.9 has had cooling since intro. They have used different kinds of cooling depending on the power output. The HOs use a better system than us lowly 215ers.

Rockymnt
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Reged: 11/08/01
Posts: 51
Loc: COLORADO, USA
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1313366 - 07/24/03 05:48 PM

I know of a 5.9 that burned a piston because the the cooling jet was plugged. Come to find out the individual that put the oil in did not tear the seal on the oil containers completly off. They just poked the foil seal into the bottle, and then poured the oil in. The foil then went into the engine and was pumped into the spray nozzles and plugged the nozzle . So always tear that foil completly off and throw it away properly.

The Warden
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Reged: 01/11/00
Posts: 6344
Loc: Palo Alto (SF Bay Area), CA
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1314140 - 07/25/03 03:53 AM

AFAIK, all engines that were designed to have a turbocharger have the cooling jets on the underside of the piston. I don't think that my 6.9l has it (n/a), but I would asume that all PSD's have it, along with every iteration of the 6BT Cummins. My old Nissan SD-33T had the cooling jets, as does the OM617 that's in my Benz.

I think that the cooling's actually a requirement...of course, GM probably tried to tout it as a brand-new high-tech thing 'cause they probably didn't use it in the past

Birken Vogt
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Reged: 08/16/99
Posts: 4431
Loc: Penn Valley, Ca
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1314269 - 07/25/03 09:36 AM

6.9s have it, too.

I don't recall if the old GM diesels did or not. I think some of them may not have had it, even 6.2s, but I am not sure about that.

Birken

nickleinonen
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Member # 17828
Reged: 11/26/01
Posts: 681
Loc: markham, ontario, canada
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1314944 - 07/25/03 06:15 PM

Quote:

6.9s have it, too.

I don't recall if the old GM diesels did or not. I think some of them may not have had it, even 6.2s, but I am not sure about that.

Birken




the 6.5 TD had piston cooling jets...

Wapitibill
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Reged: 11/05/99
Posts: 383
Loc: Central WI.
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1315356 - 07/26/03 11:18 AM

Oil cooled pistons on diesel engines date back at least 90 years. Many of the old, slow turning engines had a cooling jacket cast in their pistons. Oil was pumped through via pipes equipped with swivel joints.

Piston cooling oil jets - as we know them now - were introduced by the Germans for use in WWI vintage submarine engines. It's hardly a new idea and certainly not introduced by GM or Isuzu.



Copper
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Member # 5010
Reged: 01/26/00
Posts: 984
Loc: Inverness MT and/or Center CO
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1315418 - 07/26/03 11:58 AM

There was one short-run series of 855 small-cam's that didn't have oil cooled pistons. Unfortunately, I unknowingly bought one.

It was in an 825 Versatile tractor. It was turboed, no aftercooler. Supposedly, that particular motor wasn't supposed to be taken beyond 230 hp. bcs. of the lack of oil coolers. When I bought it at a farm auction, it was set up to 280! It had run that way for several years, but the former owner pulled light loads.

I, on the other hand, pulled the same loads as with my 895, set at 335 hp. It ran fine for 2 years (no guages ) until one day the Murphy shut the hired man down for oil pressure. Scored piston, shavings stuck the bypass. I figured out it didn't have oil coolers when I tore it down. It had the little machined flats on the right side of the block for them, but the galleys weren't drilled. I was told it wasn't possible to do.

I ended up putting a new jug & piston in it (it was only 500 hrs. off an inframe by the previous owner, which was when they'd tipped the pump) and a pyro. . After break in, I took it out and pulled it like I always had before. On even a slight hill, the pyro would shoot up over 1400!! That was one tough engine, to run for 500 hours like that. I never did back the pump off, we just took it easy on it. It got traded off about 1000 hours later, and it was running great, I just needed something with more power. I left it at a local tire shop to get the chloride pumped out of the tires so they could haul it (it was traded to a dealer in N. Dakota). The trucker claimed it wouldn't start and drove it onto the truck with ether . The dealer called me a week later, told me the trucker's story, and was whining about the oil being milky. I asked the tire shop guy, and they said they'd moved it twice, and it fired right off both times. I called the dealer back and asked if the trucker knew about the Murphy switch bypass button. It got really, really quiet on that end of the line . It was advertised a few weeks later as having a new engine . I hope they changed the block.


wanderer4x4
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Member # 30563
Reged: 03/18/03
Posts: 637
Loc: Kelowna, BC, Canada
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1315454 - 07/26/03 12:28 PM

piston skirt cooling is one of a number of issues I've had to consider with turbocharging the NA 240D engine. Right now, I've simply got it set up with oversized rad, and a huge (thermo controlled) oil cooler, to keep the temps down, but I still want to turn the motor up, and run propane, so I've been looking into options for adding 'some' sort of added cooling jets at a later date.

I'd considered using 300TD caps, with the fittings for the oil jets, but have been told the main oil gallery on the 240D is different, and that they wont work. Just as a 'way out in left field' sort of thing, has anyone ever seen / heard of an engine with the jets built into the small end of the connecting rods? just wondering if a continuous spray at the skirt would be more, or less effective than a fixed spray at the skirt & piston wall? (*** please note, I'm thinking specifically of my application, where high volume, and 80-90 psi is normal running oil pressure. I can easilly bore the feed holes in the rods out to accomodate the needed oil flow)Anyone have thoughts on this??

chris

Kansas_Farmer
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Member # 20788
Reged: 03/30/02
Posts: 442
Loc: Northwest Kansas/Southwest Nebraska
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1316957 - 07/27/03 04:47 PM

Ayep. Any engine that came from the manufacture with a turbo is going to have oil cooled pistons, unless the guys that designed it are idiots.

I blew up a 5010 Deere that had a M and W turbo kit installed.. I didn't know what the big gauge that said EGT meant at the time..........hey, I was 13 years on and Dad said go run the tractor...I did, it was pulling real good on that cool morning....well..for a little while it did anyway.



nickleinonen
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Member # 17828
Reged: 11/26/01
Posts: 681
Loc: markham, ontario, canada
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1320361 - 07/29/03 06:19 PM

Quote:

Murphy switch bypass button




what is this? never heard of it and i am curious about it...

Copper
Member
Member # 5010
Reged: 01/26/00
Posts: 984
Loc: Inverness MT and/or Center CO
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1321132 - 07/30/03 12:45 AM

Well, on something with a Murphy oil pressure guage, you have to "bypass" the low-pressure kill switch to get it started. Once it's running and your oil pressure is up, you can reset it. On my old Versatiles, they had a spring-loaded button under the dash that allowed you to start it (and run it if it overheated, to get it cooled down). It was a factory setup, a little grey button that looked like a circuit breaker. I never did understand why they didn't put it in a little more visible location....

My later series II's and series III's had the switches hooked up to audible alerts, so you just had to listen to the siren screech while you started the tractor rather than hold in a button.

We run Murphys on all of our stationary engines, like generators and irrigation pumps. Pretty good peace of mind. Most newer tractors and such have some type of factory warning system, so they really aren't needed anymore for that app.

YARIC008
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Member # 27040
Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 5362
Loc: Orlando, FL
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1321142 - 07/30/03 12:51 AM

Quote:

I know of a 5.9 that burned a piston because the the cooling jet was plugged. Come to find out the individual that put the oil in did not tear the seal on the oil containers completly off. They just poked the foil seal into the bottle, and then poured the oil in. The foil then went into the engine and was pumped into the spray nozzles and plugged the nozzle . So always tear that foil completly off and throw it away properly.




Did he not have an oil filter...?

BigDaddyT
Member
Member # 30170
Reged: 03/05/03
Posts: 2442
Loc: Eagle River,Alaska
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1321153 - 07/30/03 01:00 AM

My problem with that is that the foil has to get first from the top of the engine to the oil pan. Then it has to pass through the oil pump and filtration and enter this plugged oil cooling jet. Unless it can get through the rings and jam it from the outside of the jet rather than passing through. I have never torn an engine down and am operating on the assumption the oil filter is just after the oil pump. If not then ignore my statement. unless the oil poured on the head is then routed through the cooling jets before filtration.

LMJD
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Member # 12336
Reged: 03/25/01
Posts: 3158
Loc: Cody, Wy
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1321544 - 07/30/03 10:54 AM

I took that one with a grain of salt too. It could easily work its way to the bottom of the pan through the drainback holes in the heads, or whatever, but all pickup tubes have a screen on them.

Birken Vogt
Member
Member # 2535
Reged: 08/16/99
Posts: 4431
Loc: Penn Valley, Ca
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1321569 - 07/30/03 11:07 AM

It's possible, the bypass valve on the oil filter runs a bit open under normal running so if it could get sucked up by the pickup and get through the screen then it's got about a 25% or less chance of getting by the filter under high rpm running.

Birken

Pit_bull
Member
Member # 32759
Reged: 06/18/03
Posts: 61
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1321581 - 07/30/03 11:17 AM

Quote:

I took that one with a grain of salt too. It could easily work its way to the bottom of the pan through the drainback holes in the heads, or whatever, but all pickup tubes have a screen on them.




From what I understand the foil gets in the cooling jet when it is poured into the oil filter center section when the filter is filled up at oil change time. That way it gets past the filter because it is on the side of the filter where the oil is already filtered and then it gets into the piston oil cooling jet. I think that this happens more to individuals that prefill their filters at oil change time versus dealers that don't prefill the filters. Just what I've read in the TDR

LMJD
Member
Member # 12336
Reged: 03/25/01
Posts: 3158
Loc: Cody, Wy
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1321937 - 07/30/03 03:10 PM

Pit_bull, Ahhh Haaaa, point well taken---I was too stupid to think of that!

BigDaddyT
Member
Member # 30170
Reged: 03/05/03
Posts: 2442
Loc: Eagle River,Alaska
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1322327 - 07/30/03 08:07 PM

DOH!!
Im extra stupid on that one because Ive heard of that very thing before. Pouring the contaminant into the filter. Your sposed to fill the outside holes not the center section but im too impatient and lazy to wait for it to seep in.

Birken Vogt
Member
Member # 2535
Reged: 08/16/99
Posts: 4431
Loc: Penn Valley, Ca
Re: Did 5.9 Cummins always have piston spray cooling? new
#1322435 - 07/30/03 09:04 PM

Yep me too.

Birken

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