Temporary Archives >> General Diesel

Pages: 1
jaybee
Member
Member # 11706
Reged: 03/02/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Flowery Branch, GA, USA
Road ranger gear patterns
#537651 - 12/12/01 10:06 AM

Does anyone have any experience with the road ranger 9 and 13 speed transmissions? What is the gear pattern like on them? Is there a high and low range then normal 5/6/7 speed h pattern? How complicated is the linkage to one of them?

Thanks

sbrem
Member
Member # 6024
Reged: 03/20/00
Posts: 676
Loc: Guilford Vermont
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537652 - 12/12/01 11:11 AM

This page http://truck.eaton.com/na/spec_products/product_features_specs/transmission/ will answer your question about the patterns. You will notice that there are a few different 9 speeds with slightly different patterns. I don't know anything about the linkages.

Stephen

Birken Vogt
Member
Member # 2535
Reged: 08/16/99
Posts: 4431
Loc: Penn Valley, Ca
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537653 - 12/13/01 12:29 AM

The 9-speed with the separate low I would wager is the most common 9-speed and probably one of the most common transmissions due to its ease of shifting in the X or O pattern depending on how it is ordered.

The 13-speed is also a common one, and is like a 9-speed except that you can use a split in each gear (or not use it) when in high range.

There was also another 13-speed back in the olden days that had a 3-position air valve on it. It is shifted through the first 3 gears in Low range, then into intermediate and high like a 10-speed.

Birken

Kenworth
Member
Member # 1796
Reged: 01/07/01
Posts: 5372
Loc: British Columbia Southern Corner of the Westcoast
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537654 - 12/12/01 01:17 PM

A 13 spd gear pattern is

R-L-1-2-3-4 Range shift 5-6-7-8 or 5/5od 6/6od 7/7od 8/8od


A 13spd tranny is easy to operate its the same as a 18spd but you only can split the top gears in a 13.

I have never had any experience with a 9 spd but have with a 8LL which is R-LL-1-2-3-4 range 5-6-7-8.

A 10 and 15spd are similar but some 15 spds have a different pattern

R-1-2-3-4-5 Range 6-7-8-9-10 (10spd)

R 1-2-3-5-4 deep reduction 1-2-3-5-4 range 6-7-8-10-9


The best way to see the proper shift patterns is look at the website like somebody that has already posted.

You thinking about putting a Road Ranger in you truck if so you will have to have a air supply.

KW

jaybee
Member
Member # 11706
Reged: 03/02/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Flowery Branch, GA, USA
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537655 - 12/12/01 02:09 PM

Well, I finally found a truck salvage yard that has the engine for my truck - a 4-53 turbo out of a mid 80's Chevy truck. They said they have all sorts of trannies there from direct drive 5 speeds to 13speeds. The guy I've been talking to there seems to think that a small 9 speed would be ideal - if it has an overdrive. I know they are heavy transmissions, but that auxillary I have is really heavy too! If I can do it all in one tranny it would give me a LOT better gear splits. The way most 5 speeds are set up you would only get one more gear since OD in the lower gears would overlap the next higher gear. For instance 4 OD would work out to be almost the same as 5 direct.

The guy at the salvage lot claims he has a ton of "small" 9 speeds and has a chart to get the ratios from the part number. Does anyone know if the 9 speeds usually have overdrive gears? If so how many and what kind of ratios?

Thanks again!

jaybee
Member
Member # 11706
Reged: 03/02/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Flowery Branch, GA, USA
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537656 - 12/12/01 02:19 PM

So, do all the Eaton 9 speeds require air? Is that how they shift ranges? Do they just have some kind of switch on the lever that controls the air to change ranges?

Thanks

Dr.Evil
Member
Member # 9333
Reged: 11/14/00
Posts: 1763
Loc: Madison, Wisconsin
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537657 - 12/12/01 02:29 PM

Yep, The HI/LO range is air shifted. Doesn't take much air though. You guys that have driven RR's before, even though they call it a Nine Speed, I made the mistake once of shifting a 9 like a 10 and there really is a gear there! But it's the same ratio as lo 4th! 2 Reverses in the 9 speed too! But HI is a littel too fast to back up a semi with! Works great with a straight truck I bet!

aaron berg
Member
Member # 15894
Reged: 08/23/01
Posts: 39
Loc: sunnyside,wa
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537658 - 12/12/01 09:40 PM

Lets see if this forum will let me show you the pattern, for a 9 speed: LO HI
R 1 3 R 5 7
I--I--I I--I--I
LO 2 4 6 8
As you can see the bottom left hole isnt used on the high side, if you tried to use it, it would have the same ratio as 4th, and the only difference in a 9 and 13 is that you can split every gear on the high side, now on a 15 you can split every low gear but not high and an 18 you can split high and low, but pretty much all eatons have this shift pattern, but some transpose the 3-4 shift. If you look at the model number it will look something like RTLO-14613, The R is for Roadranger, T is for twin counter-shafts, the L is for low inertia, O is for overdrive, if its a direct drive it will have an X, the first two numbers are its nominal torque capacity in hundreds of foot pounds, for this example 1400 ft-lbs, the third number is the series of the tranny, and the last tow are how many forward speeds it has, so a direct 9 speed might look something like this RTX-12509, there are many variations on this as you can imagine I hope this helps. Aaron

MECHANIC88115
Member
Member # 12327
Reged: 03/24/01
Posts: 251
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537659 - 12/12/01 10:40 PM

the 9 and 13's use a standard shift rod like any other trans, then a air shifter for the second internal trans(in same housing as first), the ones I have drove had the same pattern, just the 9 speed does not split 6,7,8,&9. The shift pattern listed is right, you can start in L, 1, 2, and 3 if unloaded, and just shift, L, 1,2,3,4, flip switch, back to one(as 5) 2 is 6, 3 is 7, 4 is 8 on the 9 speed, on the 13, there is a overdrive range in 5,6,7,8, shifted like an old 2 speed axle. Hope this helps, Mason

jaybee
Member
Member # 11706
Reged: 03/02/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Flowery Branch, GA, USA
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537660 - 12/13/01 12:17 AM

Thanks for the info. The eaton page had some good info. On there it appeared that the X in the model number meant a standard shift pattern like:
R13
L24
and the O was a "round" shift pattern like:
R14
L23

How long has eaton been building these trannies? Are they pretty much the same even way back?

Jason

L. Wilkinson
Member
Member # 11879
Reged: 03/11/01
Posts: 820
Loc: Abbotsford, Canada
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537661 - 12/13/01 01:46 AM

The twin countershaft design has remained basically unchanged, but the gear, bearing, and shift configurations have progressed through the years. On your question regarding the shift tower, there are options available for the location of the shift fork tower relative to the length of the top cover, but if your shorty Dodge puts the opening too far behind your shift wrist(I think thats what "RenoHusker calls it) there are remote shift towers available that traslate forward and sideways motions into forward and rolling motions on a pipe leading to your shift lever. This is common on over the road Cab overs, so your solution would lie again at your salvage yard(s). Most of those parts will be totally interchangable between models and years of Eaton.
Unless you go for(or modify into) one of the double overdrive arrangements, you'll have to recheck/change your axle ratio so you can get over 40 mph. Air usage on the Fullers is small and without airbrakes, if your choice of engines has a compressor, you could connect an array of air horns atop your cab. Check the truck the engine comes from, you might want to grab as well the following: rad/ one air tank minimum/ compressor governor/ motor mounts, the more the merrier.

B-61Mack
Member
Member # 15296
Reged: 07/26/01
Posts: 177
Loc: Millington,Tn
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537662 - 12/13/01 07:59 PM

Since everyone has covered the 9/13spd roadranger tranny .


This just a thought i had a 85 chevy w/ a 471 Detroit in it i started out w/ a 5spd Clark MANNUAL tranny & later put a Allison AT545 (5spd) Automatic tranny behind it & it worked very well (i had 500 gallons of diesel , air compressor & tool boxes & boostall & welder on truck )


Hope this helps

B-61

jaybee
Member
Member # 11706
Reged: 03/02/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Flowery Branch, GA, USA
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537663 - 12/14/01 07:05 AM

B-61 I know there are some good Allisons that would bolt up to that engine and it would greatly simplify the shifter linkage. There is just one problem - I despise automatic trannies! I want to have to shift... How could I possibly build a big, lumbering truck with a slushbox?

Don't know if George Ivans gets over here but he should be proud!

Jason

Birken Vogt
Member
Member # 2535
Reged: 08/16/99
Posts: 4431
Loc: Penn Valley, Ca
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537664 - 12/15/01 12:53 AM

Those old Allisons operate much more like a manual than a C6, for instance. They keep the RPM up and will not immediately upshift just because you let off the accelerator. They lock up the torque convertor early and lock it solid. (Provided you have a 6xx or above, the 5xx have no TCC.) Unlike the light duty automatics they lock the convertor at closed throttle and with the brakes applied for slowing down, almost to a stop. This can be very noticeable when it happens when the convertor was unlocked before, as in second gear.

And, of course, they last a long time.

Birken

jaybee
Member
Member # 11706
Reged: 03/02/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Flowery Branch, GA, USA
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537665 - 12/14/01 02:26 PM

My E4OD stays locked up at closed throttle in 3rd and 4th. For instance, if you are going 60 and let off the throttle it stays locked up in 4th till it reaches the 4-3 downshift point when it unlocks, downshifts, then relocks until you get to about idle speed. It adds some nice engine braking... I also have it set to not unlock when you hit the brakes. I don't understand why Ford doesn't set it up that way...

But, I still prefer to shift myself...

Jason

Birken Vogt
Member
Member # 2535
Reged: 08/16/99
Posts: 4431
Loc: Penn Valley, Ca
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537666 - 12/14/01 07:24 PM

Yes, but a MT640 stays locked up until you stop. It also continues to downshift, if you have not selected a lower range, to keep the engine RPM up above 1000 or so. If you select a lower range then it will hold back even better.

I understand why the big 3 did not use this shifting strategy in their trucks, it is not set up for anything but full throttle heavy load driving, and can be downright violent. It seems to sacrafice some fuel economy and possibly engine life for increased transmission and brake life.

Birken

Red Horse
Member
Member # 5196
Reged: 02/03/00
Posts: 265
Loc: Bolton, MA USA
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537667 - 12/14/01 09:24 PM

Correction. Someone made the comment that the "X" in the designation meant "direct". I do believe the "X signifies an overdrive but with the conventional location of 4th (up) and 5th (down) In a regular overdrive (example RTO 9509), 5th is up and 4th is down.

Also an 8 LL is a construction trans with a low-low, a low, and then 8 more in the conventional 1-4 with the range selector down and 5 -8 with the selector "UP". LL is in the same gear position as Low but you have to activate the splitter and you are not SUPPOSED to shift out of it on the fly. It is strictly a low low off road ratio.

B-61Mack
Member
Member # 15296
Reged: 07/26/01
Posts: 177
Loc: Millington,Tn
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537668 - 12/14/01 10:45 PM

The 8LL (10SPD) Is a awsome tranny forOn/Off road trucks (Dumps, Mixers, Concrete Pumpers, & Log & Lowboy trucks just fer a few examples)


I know folks running these trannys & the 8LL YA CAN Really pull a load out of a pit w/ em w/o any strain or grunt & the tourque on them is good too .


Iknow of a 94 Ford L-8000 Dump w/ a 350 Cummins & 8LL & HE TOTES 24Tons of gravel w/ it every day & says he wouldnt own any other kind of tranny in a dump truck now .

Yall have a goodone

B-61

Kenworth
Member
Member # 1796
Reged: 01/07/01
Posts: 5372
Loc: British Columbia Southern Corner of the Westcoast
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537669 - 12/15/01 12:03 AM

We have a 8LL in the T-450 Lumber truck and its a must for pulling out of tough places especially when the 3306 Mechanical is a low powered kitty.

I talked to a guy last year about Road Rangers and he was telling me that he new a guy that had a 8LL in a logging truck pulling 100,000 pounds of logs. The guy said the 8LL lasted for years under the strain and worked better than the 15spd.

KW

R.W. Gould
Member
Member # 18101
Reged: 12/06/01
Posts: 13
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537670 - 12/15/01 04:45 AM

What you are really looking for in a Roadranger is the 600 series. They were in mid sized trucks and the supply is good. They were made in RT609, RT613, and a 5 speed. You probably would be best if you could find the 5 speed. The most common is the RT613 which is really a 15 speed. You can either find one or convert the box to a overdrive which will give you the shift pattern with 4 & 5 reversed. They are very strong and the front box is small compared to the 900 series and up. The back box on the 13 is the same as the 900 series so it is still a large transmission.

R=Roadranger, T=Twin Countershaft, O=overdrive, L=low-low. They do not make the 600 in a splitter 13 speed. The old big trucks has a 15 speed and the 613 is the same shift pattern. If you end up whith a big trans go for an old RTO913 which has great low gears and is the easiest transmission to shift made. Remember though, these are not syncro transmissions. Either learn to shift with no clutch or double clutch, there is no inbetween.

Overdrive is made in either the front box or the back box. With a Detroit 2 cycle or a 3208 Cat the front overdrive (all RTO613) are a job to shift. You get used to it but the engine slows down too fast to normal double clutch, you have to be very fast or good at no clutch shifting. I have had a bunch of them and currently am using a RT613 with a Cat in a Ford 7000 which I turned around for RTO613. Hmmm the kit to turn the gears around for the 600 series is $500. The old larger trans can be turned around with the parts it has stock. If you like overdrive you can use the RTO913 and turn it around for a RTOO913. And yes, they made them that way.

If I were building the truck that you are I would do it. Get it right and its bullet proof has more low gears than you can use and all the overdrive that you want. You can go up to .62 overdrive.

Bill

L. Wilkinson
Member
Member # 11879
Reged: 03/11/01
Posts: 820
Loc: Abbotsford, Canada
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537671 - 12/15/01 11:29 AM

Jaybee, Bills info is on the money, his final points concerning overdrive ratios are what you should be looking at closely. This was my point a few posts ago, namely if you keep your stock rear end you will probably need a double overdrive 13 speed, but they weren't without their problems too. You are pushing up the speed of rotating masses within the tranny pretty well, just to move down the road at a decent speed. Some truckers I've known that used these tended to create heat/ wear when working them. But pulling things back into perspective, you might be better off to take advantage of one of the oem's engineering and just find yourself a more or less complete wreck, with all the driveline and engine there for you to wrench under your Dodge CO. Things like worn engine/tranny are rather cheap and fun to pull down and restore. You know what they say about the cost of putting a truck or car together from a parts supply store, the price would become tenfold. Granted wrecking yards are cheaper, but you will still pay plenty with the risk of a finished project that creeps down the road like a snail, overheating and making enough noise to start a riot. Not trying to be negative, but I've seen the outcome of similar projects where the engineering didn't start in ernest till the foundation had been well laid and financially it was too hard to turn back.

jaybee
Member
Member # 11706
Reged: 03/02/01
Posts: 510
Loc: Flowery Branch, GA, USA
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537672 - 12/15/01 01:17 PM

Yes, I know that it would be most logical to do what most of the guys that build the old cab-overs. They generally just put the cab on a newer dually pickup chassis and have a modern truck. Let me explain my thoughts on that and goals for this truck.

Purpose for building this truck: to have an antique truck for hauling antique tractors/stationary engines to mostly local shows. Since I am more into antique machinery than glossy paint I would like to approach this truck from the standpoint of what might have been done to it in say the 60's to improve its performance. The Detroit Diesels would have been around in that era - as were the Road Rangers. To do away with the original chassis, axles, etc would just ruin the antiquity of the truck in my mind.

I do not plan on using this to make high speed interstate trips - mostly local drives. There is the possiblity of one long distance run once a year to a big show that is 750 miles away, but I would not be in any hurry on that trip. So, I don't mind designing this truck with a top speed of only 65mph or so. That is another advantage to using the DD - with a modest .74 OD ratio I would be turning around 2500 RPMS at 65 - which should be just fine.

So, I plan on rebuilding the axles, kingpins, bearings, etc. I am still debating on the brakes, but think that all new components at the wheels and going to a hydraulic boosted DUAL circuit system would give very good braking. As far as heat and wear being a problem with the OD Road Ranger - I may be wrong, but the torque load on this should be so low that it wouldn't be a concern. Everything on the RR website shows torque ratings of 1400 ftlbs or better - I won't be able to make but about a third of that at best.

Well, I just wanted to clarify the philosophy I am using on this truck. A slow, lumbering, difficult to drive old antique truck is what I want. The F250 is my "modern" automatic, air conditioned, disc braked, fuel efficient hauler...

Thanks for ALL the info everyone has given on this post!

Jason

Birken Vogt
Member
Member # 2535
Reged: 08/16/99
Posts: 4431
Loc: Penn Valley, Ca
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537673 - 12/16/01 01:07 AM

Just a small nit-pick, eaton does give the instructions to shifting the 8LL from Lo-Lo to Lo and the other way. It is just like shifting a 2-speed rear except that you are not supposed to preselect, but to move the valve and then do whatever shift immediately. But I imagine moving that slowly that it would be difficult to complete a shift in either direction without coming to a complete stop first, and also running the risk of applying too much power in those low ratios while trying to engine synchronize and possibly breaking something.

Birken

Super_Duty_John
Calendar Editor & Moderator
Member # 8185
Reged: 10/10/99
Posts: 7420
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537674 - 12/16/01 07:37 PM

I always wondered what that third peddle next to the brake was for when driving a RR

Anybody else ever drive the 2 position Knob and 2 position pull up switch 13? Don't let your mind wonder when pulling a hill and need to down shift!

MECHANIC88115
Member
Member # 12327
Reged: 03/24/01
Posts: 251
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537675 - 12/16/01 08:15 PM

Same here, I only use the clutch to take off and come to a complete stop, the rest of the time I just shift without it, it seems smoother that way, and now I find myself shifting without it in my pickup now. ON EDIT, super duty John, yes I have, and then converted it to a 3 postion knob, I liked them both, althought the 3 postion knob was easier on the driver, I felt like I was more sure with the other. How was yours set up, mine had the low/high flip switch, and the high/od knob, but I don't know if it had been messed with. The knob went out is why I converted it it was cheaper than ordering the knob(time wise). Hope all is well, Mason

RodneyT
Member
Member # 15116
Reged: 07/17/01
Posts: 112
Loc: Phoenix,Az
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537676 - 12/16/01 10:59 PM

Birken,
Shifting to and from L and LL is no different than floating any other gear change.You just either back out of it or pick up the rpm's as needed.I've been doing it that way for years with 11 yds of concrete in the drum and havent tore anything apart yet.


Super Duty John
Yessir I.ve done my share of miles with the old 13sp RR. They were a bid improvement over the triplex and quadraplex Mack trannys that I learned to drive on.With them you did not want to miss a downshipt in the middle of a long pull.

aaron berg
Member
Member # 15894
Reged: 08/23/01
Posts: 39
Loc: sunnyside,wa
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#537677 - 12/16/01 11:41 PM

Ive driven my fair share of trannies and its a pain in the butt when you miss a shift, up or down, my fav is the 13, then the 18, you can keep any 9,15 or 10, my current rig has a super 10, how many out there have driven one of these? lets hear your opinion!! Its not to bad when your lightly loaded or empty, but the 500 rpm drop between shifts its a real pain when fully loaded, especially up here in the great northwest where a 6% hill is considered a small one!

Kenworth
Member
Member # 1796
Reged: 01/07/01
Posts: 5372
Loc: British Columbia Southern Corner of the Westcoast
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#595600 - 12/18/01 08:07 PM

Most gravel trucks in my area run 13 spds with od splitter and thats what I learned on the newer trucks run 18 spds which isn't much different from the 13. The 18 spd is better for progressive shifting but around here its rare you split the bottom half if your really loaded you might but most gravel trucks have enough power to pull full gears in low range.

I never driven a truck with a 10 or 15 spd but I think the 15 spd models with the double od with 5 th and 4 th in the wrong spots would be really hard to get use to.

Anyhow it all takes practice to shift a Road Ranger smoothly and takes even more skill shifting a 5+4 or Mack twin sticks.

KW


Super_Duty_John
Calendar Editor & Moderator
Member # 8185
Reged: 10/10/99
Posts: 7420
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#601073 - 12/25/01 10:04 AM

Mason,
The pull knob was low and high range with the top knob for splitting. You could forget real easy where you were!
That was in a 1983 Autocar Constructor with a big bore Cummins Roll off truck I drove. Want to talk about shifting heaven for a 24 year old? I would start at the bottom and work my way up (very fast) to the top ;) That in combo with the Jake on high and straight single pipe got much attention ;)

I was once pulled over for a weight check and it was a shade under 100,000# on a tandem. This was before triaxles were big in N.J. The owner of the Garbage Company was following me and "explained?" why the load was so heavy and they (NJ State Troopers) let me go?????? Carmine had a way with words ;)

Super_Duty_John
Calendar Editor & Moderator
Member # 8185
Reged: 10/10/99
Posts: 7420
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#601076 - 12/25/01 10:15 AM

KW, the Mack quadraplex is one of the hardest driving transmissions ever! I did like grabbing 4 gears in R though ;)

A 10 speed RR is the easiest

Bob_Myers
Member
Member # 14589
Reged: 06/24/01
Posts: 1633
Loc: Paris, Ky. Kv800a on144.685
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#610720 - 01/05/02 11:03 PM

An Rt 12510 that was turned around to make an RTO12510 AND a 13 underdrive splitter box, backed up by a "brownie"4 spd gave me over 450k miles in my Freightshaker"hood running Seattle to Savannah Ga., 400 BC1 churning out 500+on the ground make short 1000 mile days easy! Dang almost wish I could run 'er through the gears one more time!
If I were building a truck as described above i would find rear gears with the tallest ratio I could find,say maybe 3.55s or so and then put a regular RTO613 or an rto9513, possibly be a bit overgeared but it takes less power to pull a direct trans coupled to higher gears than it does to make same speed with a low ratio rear and overdrive box(s),and who said you have to run in "high gear"?

Freightrain
Member
Member # 9204
Reged: 11/07/00
Posts: 2219
Loc: Ohio
Re: Road ranger gear patterns new
#610754 - 01/05/02 11:38 PM

Ah......... uh........... Mack?? Twin Stick?? Ya.....I can do that

A RR might be in the works, but I think for now I like my Triplex. I sure can give my friends a show when we go for a run.

Larry

Pages: 1



Contact Us TheDieselStop.Com

*
UBB.threads™ 6.3


All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies.
All else is Copyright 1997-2001 TheDieselStop.Com.

TheDieselStop.Com Privacy Statement
Advertising on TheDieselStop.Com

This site is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company or Navistar International Corporation.