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Anonymous
Unregistered
PSD and other engine bellhousings question
#59009 - 12/22/99 06:46 PM

I have been researching bellhousings as of late, and I have come to the conclusion that the bellhousing on a PSD is the same as a V10 is the same as a 460. Can anyone confirm this ?

I guess that because the 4R100 has an integral bellhousing and it will bolt onto either the V10 or the PSD AND the 4E0D was the same way, it could bolt onto the PSD or the 460, so PSD bellhousing = V10 bellhousing = 460 bellhousing or did they produce a different case for those transmissions for each engine ?

BTW: does the PSD have a standard bellhousing name ie: big block Ford ?

For anyone who is interested, a Dodge Cummins engine has the same bellhousing as a V10, but it is different from the Dodge 360 gas engine.

I've also seen a NEW Freightliner FL50 truck with a V10 with a Dodge automatic behind it. Does anyone have any experience with this combination as far as durability is concerned ? The reason that I ask is that if the Dodge automatic won't stand up in a pickup truck, how do they get it to live in an FL50 ?

Kim



Diesel_Aggie
Member
Member # 1829
Reged: 06/20/99
Posts: 102
Loc: College Station, TX
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59010 - 12/22/99 08:35 PM

The PowerStroke has an adapter plate that is 1-2 inches thick on it. This coverts from SAE bellhousing to the Ford bellhousing pattern. Most diesels use an SAE bellhousing pattern. This is how you can spec several different brands of engines/ transmissions in a medium duty or larger truck. So bolting up a nine-speed to the back of a Stroke should be quite easy if the rest of the truck was not in the way. Hope this helps. And to those with more experience please correct any errors. I think I've got this correct though.

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'94 F250 4x4 PowerStroke, 5-speed, 4.10 gears, regular cab, XL, Git Kit, 209,054 miles




Mark Kovalsky
Member
Member # 1191
Reged: 05/07/99
Posts: 3481
Loc: Livonia, MI USA
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59011 - 12/22/99 10:34 PM

The Powerstroke, 6.8L V10, and the 460 all have different bellhousing patterns. There are unique cases.

------------------
Mark
'94 Club Wagon w/ 7.3L HyperMax Turbo Diesel


Anonymous
Unregistered
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59012 - 12/23/99 05:09 PM

re:

"The PowerStroke has an adapter plate that is 1-2 inches thick on it. This coverts from SAE bellhousing to the Ford bellhousing pattern."

I did not know that. It does not appear from the block that this is so, but I will take your word for it. If the PSD has an SAE pattern, what SAE pattern is it ?

re:"Most diesels use an SAE bellhousing pattern. This is how you can spec several different brands of engines/ transmissions in a medium duty or larger truck."

I knew that they existed, but I don't know anything more. Is there a source of SAE patterns on the internet somewhere or in a service manual. I need dimensions.

Mark Kovalsky:

re:The Powerstroke, 6.8L V10, and the 460 all have different bellhousing patterns. There are unique cases."

The ZF5 speed must have been built with a whole pile of cases over its lifetime: PSD, V10, 460 ...

Kim





bond
Member
Member # 3520
Reged: 10/27/99
Posts: 77
Loc: San Antonio, TX, USA
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59013 - 12/24/99 01:04 AM

The bolt patterns may the same but the bellhousings are different due to the exhaust. There is a SAE specification for bellhousing and flywheels but it defines only the bellhousing to transmission interface. It does not define the bellhousing to engine interface.
I have tried to unravel the bellhousing mystery myself. You can get a bellhousing off of the NAVISTAR version of the 7.3 that has an SAE 0 transmission interface. However, the flywheel that matches this bellhousing has a different crank bolt pattern than the Powerstroke (Ford) version. The diameter of the Ford flywheel is too small for this bellhousing. If anyone can help, please post.

DK
Member
Member # 311
Reged: 04/03/99
Posts: 705
Loc: NJ (South Jersey)
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59014 - 01/02/00 12:02 AM

lux,

Here's my $.02... the 6.9/7.3 have the same SAE bellhousing. I'm not sure what number it is. The PSD probably has the same bellhousing pattern but I'm not sure since I haven't had any PSD apart.

351M, 400, 370, 429, & 460 Ford gas engines have what is known as a "big block bellhousing pattern". *Exception*: 1973 400s installed in full size Fords with FMX transmissions (transmission code PHB-AD) had a small block bellhousing pattern.

Windsor engines (221, 255, 260, 289, 302, & 351) and 351C (Clevelands) have what is known as a "small block bellhousing pattern". Fords large straight sixes (240 and 300) also have this pattern. *Exception*: Pre-'65 small blocks (221s, 260s, and 289s up 'til mid '65) have a 5 bolt bell housing. In the middle of '65, Ford switched to the now-standard six bolt design.

FE and FT engines (332, 352, 359, 360, 361, 389, 390, 391, 406, 410, 427, & 428) have yet another bellhousing pattern known as a "FE bellhousing pattern". This bellhousing is quite round.

Small Ford straight sixes (170, 200 and 250) have yet another bellhousing pattern. It is smaller then the other three bellhousings above.

C6 transmission cases where made with small block, big block, and FE bellhousing patterns.

E4OD transmissions where/are made with small block and big block bellhousing patterns.

The Ford ZF has a big block bellhousing pattern.

When Ford installed the 6.9 and 7.3 IDI Diesels, they used a cast iron adapter to convert the SAE bellhousing to the big block bellhousing pattern. That goes for automatic and manual transmissions. I'm guessing the PSD is the same way. According to Diesel_Aggie, the PSD does use the adaper plate. Thanks Diesel_Aggie.

Last year I searched the internet to see if I could find blueprints for SAE bellhousing and flywheel dimensions. The only thing I found were a few prints on the Kubota web site. ( www.kubota.com ) Some of their engines use the smaller SAE bellhousings. If anybody knows where I can find blueprints/drawings for SAE bellhousings, please let me know.

I have no V10 experience but I'm guessing it has the Ford big block bellhousing pattern. Keeping it the same would allow Ford to use current production transmissions without having to make a new transmission case.

Just out of curiousity, does Dodge use an adapter plate on the back of the Cummins? Or did they make transmissions with the same SAE pattern as the Cummins.

DK

[This message has been edited by DK (edited 01-02-2000).]

Mark Kovalsky
Member
Member # 1191
Reged: 05/07/99
Posts: 3481
Loc: Livonia, MI USA
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59015 - 01/02/00 12:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by DK:
I have no V10 experience but I'm guessing it has the Ford big block bellhousing pattern. Keeping it the same would allow Ford to use current production transmissions without having to make a new transmission case.

Bad guess

There is a new bellhousing pattern called the Modular pattern. It is used with the 4.6L, 5.4L, and the 6.8L. It's not the same as any of the older patterns. There are new 4R100 and E4OD cases for this pattern.

------------------
Mark
'94 Club Wagon w/ 7.3L HyperMax Turbo Diesel


DK
Member
Member # 311
Reged: 04/03/99
Posts: 705
Loc: NJ (South Jersey)
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59016 - 01/03/00 12:07 AM

Thanks, Mark!

DK

Jim Z
Member
Member # 38
Reged: 04/01/99
Posts: 992
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI, USA
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59017 - 01/02/00 05:29 PM

Looking at the back of my engine, it looks like the 5.9 Cummins is like many heavy truck engines in that it does not have a bellhousing integral to the block, rather it is bolted on to the rear of the block. Looks like it is an aluminum round SAE adapted to the NV4500...

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Jim Z
'00 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins 24V Std. cab, Black/Agate
Successor to 1984 F250 6.9 4x2 (still kickin' at 245k)

Jeff Hunt
Member
Member # 1082
Reged: 05/02/99
Posts: 451
Loc: West, by God, Virginnie
Re: PSD and other engine bellhousings question new
#59018 - 01/03/00 12:48 AM

The B Cummins uses a flywheel housing that bolts to the back of the block held on by 8 bolts in a triangular pattern. There are several different flywheel housings as this motor has a dizzying amount of applications. The NV-4500 uses a traditional bolt on bellhousing that bolts up to the applicable flywheel housing which I believe is an SAE spec one(round pattern). If you put the B series into a non-Dodge vehicle, you buy the flywheel housing to mate to your existing transmission's bellhousing. They run around $500 bucks a pop and you have to buy the appropriate flywheel for your flywheel housing which Cummins also makes several different versions of and are even more expensive(I paid $515 from Chrysler for the NV4500 flywheel which was cheaper than my Cummins distributors cost). I have also been told that if you change the flywheel housing on the B series that it must be dialed-in in relation to the crank centerline. If anyone is interested, I have posted some info on Ford and Chevy flywheel housings in this forum. Do a search to find it as I have yet to get much, if any feedback on it and don't like "typing" into the wind.

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95 F250 Supercab, 4X4, 5 speed, 4.10's Red and White

[This message has been edited by Jeff Hunt (edited 01-03-2000).]

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