Why can we talk about tuners. programmers, air intake mods, propane injection, changing injectors, etc as we are all aware that with the mods they do there is no way trucks will pass emissions! However, talking about disabling EGR's or blocking EGR coolers is not permitted? Why does this just seem wrong?
__________________ 2008 F-250 Lariat SRW 4x4 CC SWB... ··· 6.4L & Torqshift w/3.73 ··· Dark Stone Metallic / Pueblo gold ··· Readylift 3.5" levelling kit ... Toyo MT 315/70/18(bigger than 35-12.50-18)
simply, altering items that are required by EPA is against the law. there are no laws about adding performance modifications. if mods were against the law, those threads would be deleted too.
johnm
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100% Disabled Viet Nam Veteran (Agent Orange and its' complications)
SOMETIMES I'M ALL CAPS...BECAUSE OF MY DIABETIC EYE DEGENERATION
Pic under name is record holder high mileage vehicle. 3469.6 MPG. Built by UNLV Mechanical Engineering students.
2009 Mitsubusi Outlander SE - (24 MPG in town)
2004 VW Golf TDI - (42 MPG in town)
John, I am in agreement with you about tampering with EPA mandated items to be illegal and thus out of the bounds for discussion as the forum rules apply.
I would like your opinion then on another aspect of modifications - do you think a truck with the mods I talked about would pass any of the mandated emissions standards (because if they wouldnt what would make this any less illegal than EGR disabling?)?
__________________ 2008 F-250 Lariat SRW 4x4 CC SWB... ··· 6.4L & Torqshift w/3.73 ··· Dark Stone Metallic / Pueblo gold ··· Readylift 3.5" levelling kit ... Toyo MT 315/70/18(bigger than 35-12.50-18)
What I think some folks do not get is that there are new theories of litigation sprouting out everyday against websites. All the "this is a free country" stuff is meaningless. It is not a free country in the sense that you can do or say anything you want at anytime and at anyplace. If you have a website that allows folks to discuss patently illegal activities it will catch the eye of someone somewhere and there could be problems for the owners of the site. Ok, I also know some forums allow this type of discussion. IMHO they do so at their own peril. You can use PM to discuss anything you like. That said, there are some modifications other than simply removing a required emissions device that would make the operation of it illegal. For instance if you were to "tune" you engine in such a way that it began emitting exhaust that did not meet the standards for that vehicle in the year it was produced, that would be illegal. Would you ever get caught? Probably not in a state that does not run emissions tests. Maybe so in one that does. I have no personal issue with any of this. If folks want to break the law, then they will do so. A website does not have to facilitate it.
if the modified vehicle gets caught by the cops blowing smoke, etc. they will pay a heavy price. you can bet they would be too embarased to admit it here.
again, it it against the well known law. so it remains against the rules here.
johnm
__________________
100% Disabled Viet Nam Veteran (Agent Orange and its' complications)
SOMETIMES I'M ALL CAPS...BECAUSE OF MY DIABETIC EYE DEGENERATION
Pic under name is record holder high mileage vehicle. 3469.6 MPG. Built by UNLV Mechanical Engineering students.
2009 Mitsubusi Outlander SE - (24 MPG in town)
2004 VW Golf TDI - (42 MPG in town)
What I think some folks do not get is that there are new theories of litigation sprouting out everyday against websites. All the "this is a free country" stuff is meaningless. It is not a free country in the sense that you can do or say anything you want at anytime and at anyplace. If you have a website that allows folks to discuss patently illegal activities it will catch the eye of someone somewhere and there could be problems for the owners of the site. Ok, I also know some forums allow this type of discussion. IMHO they do so at their own peril. You can use PM to discuss anything you like. That said, there are some modifications other than simply removing a required emissions device that would make the operation of it illegal. For instance if you were to "tune" you engine in such a way that it began emitting exhaust that did not meet the standards for that vehicle in the year it was produced, that would be illegal. Would you ever get caught? Probably not in a state that does not run emissions tests. Maybe so in one that does. I have no personal issue with any of this. If folks want to break the law, then they will do so. A website does not have to facilitate it.
Are go fast boxes, tuners, bigger injectors, bigger turbos, altered exhausts, altered intake systems all items sold here none of which having an EPA sticker or a CARB sticker illegal?
My position is that this is not even a a slightly Grey area, they modify the certified system to emit MORE pollution and this is obvious and deliberate.
Using a tuner, box, bigger injector, etc BOUGHT with no certification or approval is not one scintilla different than removing the EGR, DPF, or CAT. If the owners of the site think there is some subtle difference they are delusional.
Disclaimer: I once had some of there products on my 03 and 04 6.0's BUT did not fool myself for one second that they were approved or would not void my warranty. I CHOSE to take a chance. A also drive 10 over on the turnpike!
This is a total BS position for the moderators and owners to take, it''s like being a little pregnant, you are or you are not.
I remember the things I bought said "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY" ya right!
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
if the modified vehicle gets caught by the cops blowing smoke, etc. they will pay a heavy price. you can bet they would be too embarased to admit it here.
again, it it against the well known law. so it remains against the rules here.
johnm
Is still not legal! If you buy it here or make it in your back yard it's NO DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
John, I am in agreement with you about tampering with EPA mandated items to be illegal and thus out of the bounds for discussion as the forum rules apply.
I would like your opinion then on another aspect of modifications - do you think a truck with the mods I talked about would pass any of the mandated emissions standards (because if they wouldnt what would make this any less illegal than EGR disabling?)?
NO DIFFEENCE AT ALL!
You hit it right on the head, all other arguments are childish.
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Are go fast boxes, tuners, bigger injectors, bigger turbos, altered exhausts, altered intake systems all items sold here none of which having an EPA sticker or a CARB sticker illegal?
My position is that this is not even a a slightly Grey area, they modify the certified system to emit MORE pollution and this is obvious and deliberate.
Using a tuner, box, bigger injector, etc BOUGHT with no certification or approval is not one scintilla different than removing the EGR, DPF, or CAT. If the owners of the site think there is some subtle difference they are delusional.
Disclaimer: I once had some of there products on my 03 and 04 6.0's BUT did not fool myself for one second that they were approved or would not void my warranty. I CHOSE to take a chance. A also drive 10 over on the turnpike!
This is a total BS position for the moderators and owners to take, it''s like being a little pregnant, you are or you are not.
I remember the things I bought said "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY" ya right!
I agree in part, but there is a huge distinction. It is absolutely ILLEGAL to remove a DPF, catalytic converter ect. Is is NOT illegal to sale a tuner or other mods. Therefore from the perspective of the website, facilitating the removal of items that are clearly illegal is MUCH different than advertising products that are completely legal. What is done with them once purchased is of no consequence the website. It's like you sell black powder legally, someone takes it and blows something up, not on the seller. But if you sale the black powder with instructions on how to make a pipe bomb to kill someone........that is a different story. I personally find it an admirable stance taken by the site since the day Jason and others made the rule.
I agree in part, but there is a huge distinction. It is absolutely ILLEGAL to remove a DPF, catalytic converter ect. Is is NOT illegal to sale a tuner or other mods. Therefore from the perspective of the website, facilitating the removal of items that are clearly illegal is MUCH different than advertising products that are completely legal. What is done with them once purchased is of no consequence the website. It's like you sell black powder legally, someone takes it and blows something up, not on the seller. But if you sale the black powder with instructions on how to make a pipe bomb to kill someone........that is a different story. I personally find it an admirable stance taken by the site since the day Jason and others made the rule.
I'm not an Attorney so I'm not going to debate the legality part but I don't think your black powder example is a good one. You can do more than one thing with black powder. Making a bomb is only one of them. A chip or programmer only has one purpose.
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2000 F250 Lariat CC SB 4x4 PSD Auto
I agree in part, but there is a huge distinction. It is absolutely ILLEGAL to remove a DPF, catalytic converter etc. Is is NOT illegal to sale a tuner or other mods. Therefore from the perspective of the website, facilitating the removal of items that are clearly illegal is MUCH different than advertising products that are completely legal. What is done with them once purchased is of no consequence the website. It's like you sell black powder legally, someone takes it and blows something up, not on the seller. But if you sale the black powder with instructions on how to make a pipe bomb to kill someone........that is a different story. I personally find it an admirable stance taken by the site since the day Jason and others made the rule.
Selling the tuners, boxes, is they they say "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY" which we all know is BS. The same could be said for hacking off the DPF or the EGR, "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY"
I predict that it's only a matter of time before the EPA/CARB and possibly the FTC will drop on this industry.
A lot of cars, trucks and bikes being used ONLY off road, isn't there?
This is a BS double standard and the moderators know it as did Jason. Like I said like being half pregnant.
__________________
Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Selling the tuners, boxes, is they they say "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY" which we all know is BS. The same could be said for hacking off the DPF or the EGR, "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY"
I predict that it's only a matter of time before the EPA/CARB and possibly the FTC will drop on this industry.
A lot of cars, trucks and bikes being used ONLY off road, isn't there?
This is a BS double standard and the moderators know it as did Jason. Like I said like being half pregnant.
BTW, I'm only being devils advocate, personally I don't care for the government getting into the modifications control business, but they would be well in their rights to do so. My bet is that California will do it (control) first and then the lemmings will follow.
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Please show me one example of a free website (or any website for that matter) that has been sued for mentioning or discussing the removal of a CARB device? Or any other device similar...
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