Business Venture? Who? Me?

[Dale I]

Jason -- below is an email I recieved from a moderator. Then my reply. could I get clarification on what I can and can't do as a forum member. I deleted the moderators name to avoid any prejudice from other members.

> Hi Dale;
> Your thread "Open Air Filter Update..." in the Power Strokes 1994-1997 Forum
> has been deleted. After looking though the photos in your link, it's
> apparent that this is a business venture. Please contact the Webmaster if
> you wish to advertise on Ford-Diesel.Com.
>
> Thanks
> Moderator

I am sorry. I did not try to break any rules. I have (hopefully) been a member in good standing for quite a while and frequent the board every day. I know there are strict guidlines for vendors who post on your board. But, I am not a vendor...

I am not making anything on this. I am not a vendor. In fact, in the archived post, that was linked in the newer post that was deleted (which I assume you have access to), I listed all the part numbers and the contact information to Air Flow Systems so guys could order it themselves. I have no affiliation with Air Flow Systems, other than they are in the same town as I am in so I have access to the owner, Charlie, who has been a great help in helping me with my exhaust and intake systems. Several times he has spent time with me getting back into his warehouse bringing parts out and letting me sit in his parking lot trying things on. I only thought it would benefit his business by passing the information on to other members who are currently using anything from PVC pipe to rubber sewer fittings from Home Depot to do the same thing.

I also gave information about Performance Coatings who ceramic coated the pieces for me. I have no affiliation with Performance Coatings at all. I visited his shop once (Brad, another nice guy) and he gave me a little tour. Since then, I have given his name and contact info out several times to members on the board - again, not making a dime.

If you read through the old post it might help you understand how this came about. When I posted the part numbers and prices from Air Flow one of the members suggested that I might see if we could do a group buy. I talked with Charlie and he said that Internet pricing is a little off of retail and that he would put me on his dealers list if I wanted to save everyone a little bit more. He explained the dealers list is lower because there is no risk in losing money to non-pay orders because the credit cards are on file with him and he charges them as they come in. If I wanted to worry about collecting from the board members he would charge my card and they could save money. So I did.

Once we went through me I realized it could be construed as a vendor situation so I purposly did not post any prices and asked guys to email me directly for explanation on how to go about getting the parts at an additional discount. (Name deleted) posted the prices and in a private email I asked him to delete his post.

So, what is the ruling? I am 39 years old and went back to school last year to finish my degree. I have worked in the grocery industry for 20+ years. A full time student working at Albertsons -- not a vendor trying to schlop free advertising -- just trying to save guys (like me) some money.

So, is a business venture considered to include me? Here is a link to the archived post:
http://forums.ford-diesel.com/ubb/ul...&f=27&t=004146
and there is a link in the sig to the pics of the install.

I have also given information about House of Hose, another local company who made up a filled dampened gauge for me with a schrader valve fitting so I could screw it on the fuel pressure regulator for better fuel pressure readings. I also listed Air Flow and Summit when I did my exhaust. I listed V-1 Propane when I ordered my propane tank because they were $100 cheaper than any other price I found. In short, I list all the local or national companies I find as a service to other board members. I have never received a payment, kickback, or any promotional material from any of the vendors I have ever listed.

If we don't do the "extra savings" deal by going through me, can I post about the part numbers and contact info then?

Just trying to stay within the rules and still get my friends a little extra savings. Other members and this board have provided an excellent service to me as I have worked on and modified my truck. I want to stay in the good graces of everyone. I donate to this site every year I have been a member, and will continue to do so along with advise others to do so as well. I wouldn't mind paying a fee if I had to.

I also want to say that I respect all the moderators, their time, Jason, and will abide by any ruling passed down. I don't want to start any post war here and would ask other members to refrain from posting here, I would just like to know what I can and can't do as far as referencing outside companies and trying to save guys money by group buying pieces. I wouldn't have even tried it if any vendor or business made or sold anything like this -- but it is truly something that you can do only by ordering these parts and assembling them in this fashion.

Respectfully,
Dale Isley (Dale I)
PS I copied your email and this reply to Jasons area for clarification.

[Dale I]

I should mention... I named it the Tymar air system as a joke. Tymar stands for "Take Your Money And Run" because it seems that we pay too much for just about anything because we decide to drive expensive trucks, and this mod is relatively inexpensive. (The cost of a couple to three filters from NAPA)

[Powerstroke2000]

I have to chip in here on this issue too Dale, in that I find it totally ridiculous that a moderator made the decision to delete the thread, as he made this decision on his own, without any mention of talking to Jason, or for that matter any others of us interested in this saving!
As you mentioned to us all...that this was actually going to cost YOU money...not make you money...so this really ticks me big time!
This forum is to educate us all, and if someone comes up with an idea to help others, why should he be chastised for doing so?
We are thankful that you where going to go to the trouble of helping us out, even though it was actually costing you money. How the hell can someone think you are actually running this as a business. As you mentioned, you jokingly mentioned that if it had a name, it would be (Take your money and Run) and I think this is where some dough-head thought this might be businesslike. You are not taking any business away from anyone that advertises on this site, if anything you are helping!
This goes to show how some Moderators can jump to conclusions, whether it hurts others or not doesn't seem to matter.
If this truly violates (which seems impossible) the forum rules, it's understandable, but I doubt this is the problem.
Hopefully Jason will come up with a quick answer, of which we can get back on track with this issue.

Dale...

[Frank H.]

What is going on? [img]images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] I have to agree with you POWERSTROKE 2000.I didn't see this as a business venture,but as an explanation of how and what it takes to make this application work.
I know that I haven't been a member that long, (Rookie),but I just had to put in my.01's worth.
Keep up the good work guys!!I hope some day I can HELP someone.

Frank [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[Fred Hemer]

Granted this instance it may have been out of line, But Just be thankful that the site is moderated Some of the sites are too out to lunch.this a very orderly site and if there was a mistake made then Maybe it should be corrected or sum mention of a way to correct it in the future!But Take a seat in the moderators chair for a few minutes and see where hes coming from He has been asked to keep things in order and that is what In His mind he is trying to do.
Again It comes down to an opinion!
That for the most part is what this site is based on.
I Highly dought its a power thing,But its possible!I highly dought its a money thing,As I beleive the moderators are not being payed and if they are the aren't getting rich by it!
I realize your not ranting and raving over this And stuff but,
Just thought I'd put 2 bits in!
This is an exellent site and if we all work as a team it will stay that way.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[SmokeyWren]

I'm not the moderator involved, and I haven't bothered to read the deleted thread. But I have an opinion anyway. [img]graemlins/warmimages/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Group-purchase plans are not allowed on this website. You can't run one, and you can't even discuss one. The WebMaster has spoken.

This sounds like a group purchase plan. Everybody order from one guy, and he'll consolidate the orders and save us some money. It might sound good, but it's not allowed on this website. But that's another topic - water under the bridge. Do a search on "group purchase" for the history on that.

If it looks like a business and it sounds like a business and it acts like a business, then it pays advertising. If it looks like a group purchase and it sounds like a group purchase and it acts like a group purchase, then it's not allowed.

That's one side of the coin.

On the other side of the coin it's perfectly okay to point other members to good deals on sources of stuff for our trucks. As long as you have no connection to the source of supply other than as a satisfied customer. It's okay to post prices and other details. Phone numbers, URLs, e-mail addresses - all that's okay to post in the forums. I do it all the time, and no moderator has never hollered at me.

But I don't ask for the orders to be sent to me. My credit card is not involved. There is no smell of group purchase anywhere near my posts.

I suspect if I knew the whole story, I'd probably say some of the posters in this thread owe one of my moderator collegues an apology. [img]graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

[Dale I]

As previously stated: "I don't want to start any post war here and would ask other members to refrain from posting here"... so much for that...

OK - so I decided to take a look at the The Forum Rules and Membership Agreement (which I have not read recently [ever?]) which clearly states, "Discussion of or offers of group purchases are not allowed in the forums." It is pretty cut and dry. I was in violation and the moderator was totally justified in what he did. The moderators here do an excellent job!!!

A business cannot be identified by whether it makes money (or many businesses couldn't be called businesses), but rather by whether or not you are selling something. Even though I am not a "for profit business", I was clearly trying to sell something - no matter that my intentions were good and I was trying to save members some $$$.

I will re-post a similar thread and not discuss group buying, but give the Air Flow numbers and allow members to contact me with install questions.

I apologize to "my moderator", all the moderators, and Jason...
I think I might even take the "joke name" off the pics to avoid confusion...

[kreynol2]

Dale, it ain't often that somebody comes on and says they were wrong about something. Tip of the hat to you for being upfront and honest enough to admit a mistake. As a moderator and as a member, I admire that.

Smokey is correct - Steve, you are way out of line. Venting spleen is not appropriate. If you have a disagreement, that is not an excuse for being disagreeable.

[JLester]

Well, I just now saw this and am glad you straightened out amongst yourselves. Smokey is right on about the way we've handled these things in the past. The problem is that while you might have the best of intentions, who's to say that the next guy does? If we allow one, we would have to allow all .. hence the rule.

Jason

[Powerstroke2000]

Again..just my opinion...but when was the last time a moderator actually opologised to a member for being a little too heavy handed?
It's pointless to argue this point, as I think it's wrong, and that DaleI "should" have every right to help others out as he has tried.
I realize we need rules, and that we need to follow them, but I also believe there are times when rules can be bent somewhat to, ESPECIALLY if the majority (being democratic here) agree!

I will say, that we owe all the moderators and Jason a big thanks for the work they do, but we need some sort of way of settling these types of things within the "masses" rather than in the Dictorial way. Just my opinion of course...

These things make me incredibly angry, and it really shouldn't, but all Dictatorships anger me as well. Ok....I've vented...and will have to use e-mail to DaleI to get my items.

If you get to read this DaleI, thanks for your help, as there are many many of us who are thankful to guys like yourself...and it's too bad that in a place like this where we can all gather (somewhat gather that is) that rules will get in the way. Possibly we need some kind of "chat" system which can be accessed from this board, where things like this could be brought up rather than on here?

Anyway...have a great weekend guys!

Dale...

[kreynol2]

Actually, when it has been pointed out that I was too heavy-handed for a given situation, I have apologized. Does that help answer your question?

Always question authority. Keeps them on their toes. But it need not be confrontational. That just becomes conflict and people get defensive.

[Carpentractor]

Just so you guys know. If you want to run an article about this modification, I believe you will have no problem with the webmaster. The modification looks like a good clean job too. Even if it were a business endeavor, we can run an article on your modification without you having to pay ad fees. Contact me. editor@ford-diesel.com I can post website links and pricing too.

In fact, I am going to be working with Coach Davis in the near future to write a story about the zf-5 PTO cover that his buddy sells.

Jason does not really mind this type of advertising through articles. In fact, in the last couple of months, we have published articles that were definite sales pitches without a problem. For example our Oil Analysis Feature Article. If you guys would like to run with something like this, we can discuss particulars and what would be acceptable on the site. I would be happy to help you with anything you need.

Just because it cannot happen in the forums doesn't mean the site is not supportive of entrepreneurs or those who are great improvisers.

Keith

[Patrick Feeley]

Woo Hoo! I personally like Keith's idea! A decent alternative to either of the other points of view. Cheers!

[Diesel_777]

Great to hear that Keith. Thanks for the support of the majority.. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[SteveBaz]

Jason & kreynol2,

I have been on theis site for a long time now and in the heat of defending an issue and a friend I said things that were out of line. This is a forum and a discussion forum at that and I should have chosen to discuss it as opposed to mud slinging. I appoligize for the remark to kreynol2. It was out of line.

BAZ...