Site Commentary From Outside The Box

[VIZARD]

While I have limited exposure to this diesel board I have been a very active member at various other diesel sites.

I am a very strong advocate of consistency in site policy and enforcement, I also feel strongly about open discussions. As long as there are no implied or direct personal attacks and people are treated with respect. Respect BTW is a two way street typically paved by integrity, honesty, and an openness to listen to and assimilate the opinions of others.

Allowing the discussion of illegal modifications does not even remotely imply that these actions are condoned or sanctioned by site ownership / management. In fact, IMO, it is a dis-service to the site membership to censor such discussions.

If ownership mandates what technical issues can /cannot be discussed, then how is a member to know the cons Vs the pros of any given topic. Illegal act or not. How would they even learn of the legal implications / ramifications?

A forum ceases to be a forum if threads are locked and posts are line item edited at the will of the moderators. In my short tenure here I have already witnessed a well-moderated thread, locked by another moderator. Actions like this display a certain lack of moderation consistency / enforcement. In addition, it at least implies a lack of confidence between the mods.

Whether disabling an EGR Valve is illegal or not, it is not the responsibility the site to determine the consciousness of the individual reader or the membership as a whole. It is the responsibility of the site to allow open discussions of technical issues without fear of censure, reprimand and / or thread closure.

Now, with all that said, I am sure that many occasionally feel they have been betrayed by a lack of opportunity to exercise their right to freedom of speech.

All must remember, however, there is no right to freedom of speech in a privately owned site. And the bottom-line? Management has the right to delete anything they want. We, as members, have the right to leave. As a special note to site management, it seems there are a number of former members out on the internet street that have exorcised that right. But, you can't be all things to all people.

I have heard a lot of good and bad will about TDS. At first blush it seems you do have a very good site. However, with growth, comes growing pains. Hopefully, the site will not be consumed with treating the symptoms of the pain. Possibly becoming the cause of the pain.

It will be important that your controls do not get out of control.

Example: If this commentary gets deleted or remains…either way… then I suppose the action in itself could say volumes about the direction of the site.

Thanks for your indulgence and...Safe trucking.

[roofeditor]

An articulate well thought out statement.

[CSIPSD]

One thing I have to say about the mod's on this site is that they are unpaid volunteers [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. I know other sites there are membership fee's that cover some cost's, whether those are for paid mod's or other expenses I don't know [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img], but I think that the mod's do a good job for the time they may have available. I know I spend WAY TOO MUCH time here, but I would not wish there jobs on any one. I have had post's deleted and edited (some smart remarks and such [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/phoney.gif[/img]) but have no feelings one way or the other.

It's like eating a cookie, sometimes there good [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and sometimes there really good [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img], but I've never had a bad cookie [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]!

Yes I have had too many cookies! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img]

[Maxson]

Very well put!! I am very appreciative of the information I have gained here, but am extremely disappointed by the massive amount of censorship that goes on. Recently is seems to be at an all time high.
I'm all for moderating the personal attacks, but there is some great tech out there, much of which comes from activities like racing. That's why auto manufacturers race, to further technology, and many advancements over the years have come from the back yard home brew racers coming up with their own ideas.
This IS America, people don't get fined or hauled off to jail for having an opinion.

[The_Kid]

[ QUOTE ]
If ownership mandates what technical issues can /cannot be discussed, then how is a member to know the cons Vs the pros of any given topic. Illegal act or not. How would they even learn of the legal implications / ramifications?


[/ QUOTE ]

Right off hand I can't think of any Pros for performing illegal acts, and would hope that the members here are intelligent enough to know the implications / ramifications of doing something illegal.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether disabling an EGR Valve is illegal or not, it is not the responsibility the site to determine the consciousness of the individual reader or the membership as a whole. It is the responsibility of the site to allow open discussions of technical issues without fear of censure, reprimand and / or thread closure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. It is the responsibility of the members to follow the rules and regulations that Jason has put in place. If everyone did that, there would be no need for moderators.

[ QUOTE ]
Example: If this commentary gets deleted or remains…either way… then I suppose the action in itself could say volumes about the direction of the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

It dosn't appear that you have broken any of the rules, so I see no reason that it would get deleted.

[VIZARD]

The_Kid, It seems that you miss the point of my observations. As I stated, it is a privately owned site and ownership can certainly do as they may.

This in no way has been meant as a slight against anyone here. It appears that you sense I have attacked someone. This is /was not intended.

I have seen overzealous censorship become a poison elsewhere and my only intent has been to inform, not accuse. It is obvious that, right, wrong or indifferent, some at TDS are somewhat disgruntled.

Illegal acts, being what they may, do have implications / ramifications that can vary from state to state. Some may not be aware of what the issues are. Illegal or not, some of these acts could possibly have a benefit to the individual willing to accept the risk. Since you trust the reader to be intelligent and responsible, as do I, why wouldn't you want them to be well informed? This way they can make informed, responsible decisions. Suited to their personal needs.

It is illegal to exceed the posted speed limit. Would you censor discussion about radar detectors? Even though in most states radar detectors, in themselves, are not illegal. They do however, allow the user a better opportunity to break the law.

We are not talking about murder and mayhem here. We are talking about technical issues with our vehicles.

Again, these are just my opinions and observations based on witness and experience. It really doesn't matter if you agree or not as you also have your own opinions. Neither of us have to be right...or wrong...just putting forth our beliefs to share with other readers.

Since this is a private site I suppose the only right or wrong is to be determined in the heart and soul of ownership...as opposed to the heart and soul of the readership. It will be the dynamic policies of management that will ultimately determine if the site is populated by readers...or members.

BTW, site policies have to be dynamic in a growing environment such as this. What is OK today maybe ruled inappropriate tomorrow and visa / versa.

[Sparkydm]

Some people on this site do build race trucks and for these
applications, off road use, many modifications aren't illegal.
Let the technical discussions be and the user is responsible for
using them properly. That being said, I find this site very useful
for my intended purpose, helping me maintain my truck in a cost
effective manner. Thanks to all who have been of assistance in
this ongoing project! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]

[zahndok]

Well stated. I fully support moderating the site. I just believe that hitching your wagon to a standard of illegal vs. legal is a site killer and a slippery slope that will rule out posts that the site may not have intended to moderate. If they adhere strictly to the advertised standard then a great deal of the upgrade section is not to be discussed. I believe a more workable standard by which to judge posts could be developed.

[FatDog]

[ QUOTE ]
... A forum ceases to be a forum if threads are locked and posts are line item edited at the will of the moderators. In my short tenure here ...

[/ QUOTE ]
The first sentence of that quote was wrong. The last five words helped explain just exactly WHY the first sentence was wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
...At first blush it seems you do have a very good site. However, with growth, comes growing pains. ...

[/ QUOTE ]

The first sentence of THAT quote was correct. The last few words of that quote .... well refer to your last few words of the above quote.

Stick around a while.
It is the best here, bar none. Mike

[VIZARD]

So, my tenure here does not allow me to have any previous diesel site experience, or knowledge? Seems a little short sighted but, whatever floats your boat.

I have not passed judgment on this site for myself. And if I did would never subject that judgment on anyone else. I agree that TDS is very good and holds a wealth of information, discussion, and opinions.

I do not believe I have stated otherwise and I hope I have not implied otherwise.

Tenure notwithstanding. My comments in this thread are merely a proactive attempt to share what I saw as an issue that many (current as well as former members) seemed concerned about or to at least have an interest in. Not to ridicule or defame.

While I may not have been a member long, I have read, learned, and benefited from this site for quite some time.

BTW, Thanks for the info.

[Shawn]

[ QUOTE ]

While I have limited exposure to this diesel board I have been a very active member at various other diesel sites.

I am a very strong advocate of consistency in site policy and enforcement, I also feel strongly about open discussions. As long as there are no implied or direct personal attacks and people are treated with respect. Respect BTW is a two way street typically paved by integrity, honesty, and an openness to listen to and assimilate the opinions of others.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]

Allowing the discussion of illegal modifications does not even remotely imply that these actions are condoned or sanctioned by site ownership / management. In fact, IMO, it is a dis-service to the site membership to censor such discussions.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Allowing the discussion can open tds.com to legal liabilities. There have been court cases showing when a site is moderated, they can be held liable for content posted on the site. Because we try to keep things technically oriented and what not, the door is now open (two years of legal classes centered around the Internet and IP law tells me this).

[ QUOTE ]

If ownership mandates what technical issues can /cannot be discussed, then how is a member to know the cons Vs the pros of any given topic. Illegal act or not. How would they even learn of the legal implications / ramifications?


[/ QUOTE ]

That is true. I will ask Jason to see if we would create a sticky regarding this showing both sides of the issue.

[ QUOTE ]

A forum ceases to be a forum if threads are locked and posts are line item edited at the will of the moderators. In my short tenure here I have already witnessed a well-moderated thread, locked by another moderator. Actions like this display a certain lack of moderation consistency / enforcement. In addition, it at least implies a lack of confidence between the mods.


[/ QUOTE ]

We try to be fair towards all. The rules for each forum are posted at the top and for all to see. The major issue is not the consistency, but the timeframe for enforcement. There are only so many moderators to read the numerous new posts each day. We can't read them all and do rely on the "Notify Moderator" button to bring us closer to the topics we do need to see. Believe me, we all try to act and moderate in the same manner to eliminate discrepancies. We discuss behind the scenes quite a bit and try to come to a consensus.

[ QUOTE ]

Whether disabling an EGR Valve is illegal or not, it is not the responsibility the site to determine the consciousness of the individual reader or the membership as a whole. It is the responsibility of the site to allow open discussions of technical issues without fear of censure, reprimand and / or thread closure.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Unless the discussion could lead to an actionable cause (read: lawsuit) towards tds.com then we shut it down. Other issues that lead to immediate closure are flamewars, trolling, and personal attacks.

[ QUOTE ]

Now, with all that said, I am sure that many occasionally feel they have been betrayed by a lack of opportunity to exercise their right to freedom of speech.


[/ QUOTE ]

My inbox confirms this. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

All must remember, however, there is no right to freedom of speech in a privately owned site. And the bottom-line? Management has the right to delete anything they want. We, as members, have the right to leave. As a special note to site management, it seems there are a number of former members out on the internet street that have exorcised that right. But, you can't be all things to all people.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perfectly stated.

[ QUOTE ]

I have heard a lot of good and bad will about TDS. At first blush it seems you do have a very good site. However, with growth, comes growing pains. Hopefully, the site will not be consumed with treating the symptoms of the pain. Possibly becoming the cause of the pain.

It will be important that your controls do not get out of control.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]

Example: If this commentary gets deleted or remains…either way… then I suppose the action in itself could say volumes about the direction of the site.

Thanks for your indulgence and...Safe trucking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let me be totally frank: Your discussion is a rational summary of the events that have and are happening over the last year or so. I don't agree with everything that has happened but I do agree that tds.com needs to find a direction. Jason has set that direction with being the best technical site regarding diesels in Ford Trucks (with a side goal of diesels in general).

We as the moderators either agree with that goal or do not. If we don't we leave graciously. If we do, we stick around and try to help acheive it.

Personally, I have been on many forums. Ars Technica, VW Vortex, TDIClub, and numerous other forums. Quite frankly, tds.com is pretty damn well run. The only one in the group above run better is Ars and that is because most of the members abide by the rules set forth and the moderators enforce those rules.

The problem here is the rules have been set forth after a long time with "general guidelines" and many are resistant to the changes. We tried running the site as freely as possible but it only lead to bigger and bigger problems. We clamped down a bit and more problems cropped up. Some people just don't like what is going on and don't care what we do about it.

The bottom line (if you didn't want to read the above)

Constructive comments are always welcome. We take them, discuss them, and try to ensure what we are doing is best for the site. We aren't out to get anyone. We do not play favorites. We have limited resources and a large amount of ground to cover. Those people that just want to stir the pot up don't help. Those that are trying to do the right thing and are in the middle of the mess, I apologize. Keep using the "Notify Moderator" buttons and we will eventually get to the post to review it.

SP

[roofeditor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

While I have limited exposure to this diesel board I have been a very active member at various other diesel sites.

I am a very strong advocate of consistency in site policy and enforcement, I also feel strongly about open discussions. As long as there are no implied or direct personal attacks and people are treated with respect. Respect BTW is a two way street typically paved by integrity, honesty, and an openness to listen to and assimilate the opinions of others.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]

Allowing the discussion of illegal modifications does not even remotely imply that these actions are condoned or sanctioned by site ownership / management. In fact, IMO, it is a dis-service to the site membership to censor such discussions.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Allowing the discussion can open tds.com to legal liabilities. There have been court cases showing when a site is moderated, they can be held liable for content posted on the site. Because we try to keep things technically oriented and what not, the door is now open (two years of legal classes centered around the Internet and IP law tells me this).

[ QUOTE ]

If ownership mandates what technical issues can /cannot be discussed, then how is a member to know the cons Vs the pros of any given topic. Illegal act or not. How would they even learn of the legal implications / ramifications?


[/ QUOTE ]

That is true. I will ask Jason to see if we would create a sticky regarding this showing both sides of the issue.

[ QUOTE ]

A forum ceases to be a forum if threads are locked and posts are line item edited at the will of the moderators. In my short tenure here I have already witnessed a well-moderated thread, locked by another moderator. Actions like this display a certain lack of moderation consistency / enforcement. In addition, it at least implies a lack of confidence between the mods.


[/ QUOTE ]

We try to be fair towards all. The rules for each forum are posted at the top and for all to see. The major issue is not the consistency, but the time frame for enforcement. There are only so many moderators to read the numerous new posts each day. We can't read them all and do rely on the "Notify Moderator" button to bring us closer to the topics we do need to see. Believe me, we all try to act and moderate in the same manner to eliminate discrepancies. We discuss behind the scenes quite a bit and try to come to a consensus.

[ QUOTE ]

Whether disabling an EGR Valve is illegal or not, it is not the responsibility the site to determine the consciousness of the individual reader or the membership as a whole. It is the responsibility of the site to allow open discussions of technical issues without fear of censure, reprimand and / or thread closure.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Unless the discussion could lead to an actionable cause (read: lawsuit) towards tds.com then we shut it down. Other issues that lead to immediate closure are flamewars, trolling, and personal attacks.

[ QUOTE ]

Now, with all that said, I am sure that many occasionally feel they have been betrayed by a lack of opportunity to exercise their right to freedom of speech.


[/ QUOTE ]

My inbox confirms this. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

All must remember, however, there is no right to freedom of speech in a privately owned site. And the bottom-line? Management has the right to delete anything they want. We, as members, have the right to leave. As a special note to site management, it seems there are a number of former members out on the internet street that have exorcised that right. But, you can't be all things to all people.


[/ QUOTE ]

Perfectly stated.

[ QUOTE ]

I have heard a lot of good and bad will about TDS. At first blush it seems you do have a very good site. However, with growth, comes growing pains. Hopefully, the site will not be consumed with treating the symptoms of the pain. Possibly becoming the cause of the pain.

It will be important that your controls do not get out of control.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]

Example: If this commentary gets deleted or remains…either way… then I suppose the action in itself could say volumes about the direction of the site.

Thanks for your indulgence and...Safe trucking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let me be totally frank: Your discussion is a rational summary of the events that have and are happening over the last year or so. I don't agree with everything that has happened but I do agree that tds.com needs to find a direction. Jason has set that direction with being the best technical site regarding diesels in Ford Trucks (with a side goal of diesels in general).

We as the moderators either agree with that goal or do not. If we don't we leave graciously. If we do, we stick around and try to help achieve it.

Personally, I have been on many forums. Ars Technical, VW Vortex, TDIClub, and numerous other forums. Quite frankly, tds.com is pretty damn well run. The only one in the group above run better is Ars and that is because most of the members abide by the rules set forth and the moderators enforce those rules.

The problem here is the rules have been set forth after a long time with "general guidelines" and many are resistant to the changes. We tried running the site as freely as possible but it only lead to bigger and bigger problems. We clamped down a bit and more problems cropped up. Some people just don't like what is going on and don't care what we do about it.

The bottom line (if you didn't want to read the above)

Constructive comments are always welcome. We take them, discuss them, and try to ensure what we are doing is best for the site. We aren't out to get anyone. We do not play favorites. We have limited resources and a large amount of ground to cover. Those people that just want to stir the pot up don't help. Those that are trying to do the right thing and are in the middle of the mess, I apologize. Keep using the "Notify Moderator" buttons and we will eventually get to the post to review it.

SP

[/ QUOTE ]


""I don't agree with everything that has happened but I do agree that tds.com needs to find a direction.""

The most intelligent thing you said, the rest was jumping on what Larry and Smokey said.

How about settling it (Once and for all) by having a "off road/racing only" (with a disclaimer stating such) section where performance modifications no matter how off the wall are openly discussed.

BTW: ANY Tampering with the EGR by welding and re-programming the PCM or overriding the PCM with a go fast box are exactly the same thing. You can put make up and a fancy hair-due on a pig and call the pig Monica or Monique and it's still a pig. None of the sold modifications are illegal. and (.) means period!

[VIZARD]

Shawn, Thank you very much for your reply. It seems that in principal, we agree. The legal liabilty issues are pretty gray. If you can post instructions for bomb building on a website I don't see where unplugging an EGR Valve or deleting a cat would stir up much legal dialog. In addition, I would think that if your risk therory is true there would be a lot reporters in court. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I am sure that with the growth you guys have experienced it has been somewhat of a roller coaster ride for mods and members alike. It ain't easy.

TDS is a good site. It is obvious that TDS has it's defenders as evidenced here when a couple folks thought I was in attack mode. Again, not my intent. If I do ever feel the need to present an attack there will be no question as to my intent. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]

Keep up the good work and thanks again for your participation in this discussion.

[95_stroker]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Allowing the discussion can open tds.com to legal liabilities. There have been court cases showing when a site is moderated, they can be held liable for content posted on the site. Because we try to keep things technically oriented and what not, the door is now open (two years of legal classes centered around the Internet and IP law tells me this).

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you point me in the direction where I may find these cases?

[VIZARD]

As an appendix to my original commentary and in response to a thread that was just deleted I add the following:

From the sounds of it, based on the other threads, I don't think anyone is upset at any individual mod...with a couple of member exceptions.

It seems that those that are not happy are displeased with what they see as inconsistent moderation. Moderators over moderating each other....etc.

Primarily though, it looks as if the dissension is mostly targeted at the feeling that site enforcement is not following their own mandates / guidelines. Mainly a tug-a-war of definition of terms.

I, personally don't know how much is real or imagined...it just seems to be the pulse of those speaking out right now. The more that do...the more that will.

All sites have upset people. As some voice their displeasure it keys embedded displeasure in others and they decide to jump in so that they can be heard as well. That is why you are seeing what appears to be a lot of upset people...all of a sudden and all at once.

The domino theory in it's purest form.

Some members will leave as a result of their needs not being met. New ones will join. The cycle continues. A procedural course of the system being naturally purged.

No matter the response from site management...It will dissipate, only to return at another time. It always does, it always will.