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As an appendix to my original commentary and in response to a thread that was just deleted I add the following:
From the sounds of it, based on the other threads, I don't think anyone is upset at any individual mod...with a couple of member exceptions.
It seems that those that are not happy are displeased with what they see as inconsistent moderation. Moderators over moderating each other....etc.
Primarily though, it looks as if the dissension is mostly targeted at the feeling that site enforcement is not following their own mandates / guidelines. Mainly a tug-a-war of definition of terms.
I, personally don't know how much is real or imagined...it just seems to be the pulse of those speaking out right now. The more that do...the more that will.
All sites have upset people. As some voice their displeasure it keys embedded displeasure in others and they decide to jump in so that they can be heard as well. That is why you are seeing what appears to be a lot of upset people...all of a sudden and all at once.
The domino theory in it's purest form.
Some members will leave as a result of their needs not being met. New ones will join. The cycle continues. A procedural course of the system being naturally purged.
No matter the response from site management...It will dissipate, only to return at another time. It always does, it always will.
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There is a simple solution:
How about settling it (Once and for all) by having a "off road/racing only" (with a disclaimer stating such) section where performance modifications no matter how off the wall are openly discussed.
BTW: ANY Tampering with the EGR by welding and re-programming the PCM OR overriding the PCM with a go fast box are exactly the same thing. You can put make up and a fancy hair-due on a pig and call the pig Monica or Monique and it's still a pig. None of the sold modifications are illegal. and (.) means period!
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Can you point me in the direction where I may find these cases?
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I have to go dig my books and journals out but the biggest ones revolved around the Yahoo BBS boards, 2600 (The Hacker Magazine), and many sites who published "The Anarchist's Cookbook".
Another large example would be the DeCSS code that (still) floats around the net. IIRC, Slashdot got a takedown notice for merely publishing links to the code (which in the USA violates the DMCA) as well as quite a few other sites. Most never got to the trial stage but the injuctions filed against them were upheld.
Personally, I find the trend scary and reprehensible. Part of the first amendment is the right to talk about illegal acts but not act on them.
As soon as I can find links and/or case numbers, I will post them.
Personally, I find the trend scary and reprehensible. Part of the first amendment is the right to talk about illegal acts but not act on them.
SP
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Funny you mention that in this discussion. If not for those that discussed illegal acts 229 years ago...we would still be sipping hot tea and choking on crumpets...butchering the King's english. Ever heard a Brit say "Git 'er done!"? It ain't pretty. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
Can you point me in the direction where I may find these cases?
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I have to go dig my books and journals out but the biggest ones revolved around the Yahoo BBS boards, 2600 (The Hacker Magazine), and many sites who published "The Anarchist's Cookbook".
Another large example would be the DeCSS code that (still) floats around the net. IIRC, Slashdot got a takedown notice for merely publishing links to the code (which in the USA violates the DMCA) as well as quite a few other sites. Most never got to the trial stage but the injuctions filed against them were upheld.
Personally, I find the trend scary and reprehensible. Part of the first amendment is the right to talk about illegal acts but not act on them.
As soon as I can find links and/or case numbers, I will post them.
SP
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The Anarchist's Cookbook???? you old hippie you!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Can you point me in the direction where I may find these cases?
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to go dig my books and journals out but the biggest ones revolved around the Yahoo BBS boards, 2600 (The Hacker Magazine), and many sites who published "The Anarchist's Cookbook".
Another large example would be the DeCSS code that (still) floats around the net. IIRC, Slashdot got a takedown notice for merely publishing links to the code (which in the USA violates the DMCA) as well as quite a few other sites. Most never got to the trial stage but the injuctions filed against them were upheld.
Personally, I find the trend scary and reprehensible. Part of the first amendment is the right to talk about illegal acts but not act on them.
As soon as I can find links and/or case numbers, I will post them.
SP
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Thanks Shawn,
I'll be interested to see what the implications are or the tie is between bomb building and EGR modifications. Especially if the EGR/Cat mod discussion is merely conjecture.[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
One of the things I find interesting is how much personal interpretations are used in determining what is legal or illegal.
I have participated in threads about towing above GCWR, which some members (and moderators) feel that is illegal, others do not. We have had some great discussions on it, shared each other’s views, and I think, to a great extent many people learned something. Other threads quickly disintegrated into flames and name calling.
Another thread I remember has to do with exhaust systems. A member here posted Federal regs that stated it is illegal to modify the exhaust. However, how many hundreds of threads are there on “who has the best exhaust”, etc, etc etc…… I hesitate to bring this up, as I find those threads valuable to my future decisions, but none the less, it does show a level of inconsistency and personal interpretation of laws as to what is enforced and what is not.
My personal belief is that if the proper disclaimers are made, and very public rather than in the fine print of the “user agreement” which I doubt less than 1% read, that would go a long way to protecting TDS from any liability.
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Current truck 2005 F350
Allowing the discussion of illegal modifications does not even remotely imply that these actions are condoned or sanctioned by site ownership / management.
Whether disabling an EGR Valve is illegal or not, it is not the responsibility the site to determine the consciousness of the individual reader or the membership as a whole. It is the responsibility of the site to allow open discussions of technical issues without fear of censure, reprimand and / or thread closure.
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From a legal perspective the above two statements are inaccurate. Websites are not protected by the same safe harbor statutes that ISP's are and the liability that can be imposed to a website based on the content of that site is an evolving legal area. The more control you exercise to control content seems to have a direct bearing on the liability that can be imposed. Seems like the inverse should be true, but the law is not always logical.
It would be more than interesting to see chapter and verse on that.
But, for the sake of discussion, lets take the position that that your statement is absolute and rev it up a notch.
If site owners are at risk by allowing the mere discussion of illegal acts (no matter the magnitude)then sites like this should sense the immediate need cleanse themselves of all liability.
To your point the discussion and even worse the advertising of products that allow readers the means to perform illegal acts could possibly lead to huge fines or even wrongful death lawsuits.
Example: Programmers that alter the computer commands which in turn empowers the user to eliminate speed limiters. People die in 130 MPH crash. Buyer bought and installed based on info received / discussed at Joe Blow Diesel Dot Com.
Or Mr. Goofy's fuel box...or over sized tires / lift kit result in roll over killing....
All it takes is an attorney with lots of time and lots of $$$$ in his pocket.
With regards to a crime being committed (EPA or otherwise) all that is needed is an overzealous civil employee looking for an opportunity to make a mark in the road on his journey thru life.
As I understand it, EPA laws are broken any time you alter the make up / design / manufactured finished product as delivered. Theoretically this would make most products advertised here as illegal modifications. With that in mind all discussion regrading same should cease and desist.
If we had the time, inclination, and wherewith all to conduct the research we would probably find that we are tampering with EPA regs, at the very least with programmers, fuel boxes, Cat deletes, possibly even air intake enhancements. And let's not forget noise pollution to include turbo back systems, etc.
EX: There is a very well known diesel performance designer that offers complete front to rear, drive out performance enhancement packages. Even get to see it on TV. I would be shocked, stunned, and amazed if that system is completely EPA compliant.
I sense that if there was $ 100.00 kit required to provide the disabling of the EGR Valve, it would be readily advertised here and at many other sites.
So again, with your point being absolute...the desire of site management to be morally and politically correct to be absolute...then the logical conclusion would be to disallow all discussion of issues that could be deemed as illegal or that could expose the site to financial liability.
Now, with all that said. It is my belief that all anybody is looking for here and / or at other similar sites, is consistency in the moderation guidelines. With particular attention to the enforcement of those guidelines. That is all, nothing more, nothing less.
No one here is trying to destroy civilization as we know it. Just trying to discover the inner workings of their vehicles and trying to get either the biggest bang for their buck or at the very least trying to get out of their vehicle what was advertised. EPA notwithstanding.
It all goes back to the fact that we all have choices. If TDS does not want to allow discussion of EGR Valves or Cat deletes or whatever...there are a multitude of other sites where the information is readily available and freely discussed. What hurts members here is, they are very site loyal and really don't want to explore other venues to get the information they desire. Their trusted friends are here as well as the opinions of trusted members. There lies the travesty.
BTW, I really want to take this opportunity to thank admin / mods for allowing this discussion. Which for the most part has been without any slights to any individuals. Thanks to the participants / readers as well.
WOW, Now I must say this is one of the BEST "Discussions" I have read on here in some time.
Views have been laid out by many, differing views have been raised, and it seems allot of thought has been put into 99.99 percent of all the posts, and without a single personal attack or slamming that I have seen...Congrats to everyone...very adult discussion.
VIZARD,
I wish to address you personally, I am very impressed with your ability to put your thoughts on "Paper" as it were and your evident intellect, and all without having raised the hair on anyone's neck, that in itself is worth noting...you have made your thoughts, opinions, and ideas noted without starting a war...I bow to you Sir.
OK now with all that said...hehe.
I have a few things to add to the discussion, however I need to look up a few things first just to make sure my facts are accurate, I will add to this post as time and facts allow.
Best Regards
Paul
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The only stupid question is the one you DON'T ask !!
1985 F-250 4x4
6.9, T19 4 Speed
1984 F-350 Dually
Engine down due to bad head
1990 F-900 (Currently sporting a Prentice 120 knuckle boom with log grapple and log bunks)
240 HP Ford Diesel
5 Speed Eaton
Twin Scew Rockwell 34,000 LB axles / 5.29 Gears
This truck has been converted into a log hauler.
1948 Cat D4 powered by 6.9 with T19 tranny coupled to Cat 5 speed, 20 forward, 9 reverse gears.
[ QUOTE ]
WOW, Now I must say this is one of the BEST "Discussions" I have read on here in some time.
Views have been laid out by many, differing views have been raised, and it seems allot of thought has been put into 99.99 percent of all the posts, and without a single personal attack or slamming that I have seen...Congrats to everyone...very adult discussion.
VIZARD,
I wish to address you personally, I am very impressed with your ability to put your thoughts on "Paper" as it were and your evident intellect, and all without having raised the hair on anyone's neck, that in itself is worth noting...you have made your thoughts, opinions, and ideas noted without starting a war...I bow to you Sir.
OK now with all that said...hehe.
I have a few things to add to the discussion, however I need to look up a few things first just to make sure my facts are accurate, I will add to this post as time and facts allow.
Best Regards
Paul
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Thank you, Paul, for your kind words.
BTW: You're signature comment is very correct regarding " No such thing as a stupid question". I might add, "But, some of the answers sure can be!".
He's back? Better check the posting time!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Linear Mode
