Off-Topic DiscussionsThis is the area for general banter/chat. There are rules for this section, please read the sticky post in the section before participating. The short rules: Only work safe discussions, no religious/political debates!
Back in 2006, when Chavez began offering free oil to Americans from Venezuela's government-controlled Citgo, New Hampshire's energy office contacted the Venezuelan Embassy about working out a deal.
But the idea galled some New Hampshire Republicans, including Sen. John Sununu, who called the it a "disgrace" and an attempt at grandstanding by Chavez, and Democratic Gov. John Lynch squelched the effort.
This year, though, "the state's role is to make sure people are aware of the program," Lynch spokesman Colin Manning said.
A lot has changed over the past two years. Back then, heating oil sold for about $2.50 per gallon in the Northeast. Last month, the average price was $4.61, with predictions of $5 per gallon oil by winter.
"The average tank is 250 to 275 gallons," Citizens spokeswoman Ashley Durmer said. "Filling it once is over $1,500. That is unfathomable that anyone can pay that price. If you have to fill the tank four times, it's going to be a devastating winter for a lot of people."
On Thursday, Sununu again criticized Chavez but said he has no problem with people or businesses accepting help from an independent nonprofit such as Citizens.
Sununu and other lawmakers around the Northeast are pressing for big increases in federal home heating aid. More than 6 million New England households rely on oil heat.
Bob Garside, president of the Oil Heat Council of New Hampshire, a trade group, predicted many of the state's 200 dealers will refuse to participate in the heating-oil giveaway. "In the past, it's been nothing but a ploy for Chavez," Garside said.
Bill Fuller, general manager of Fred Fuller Oil Co., disagreed. He began delivering fuel for Citizens last winter, when hundreds of New Hampshire residents who applied on their own, without state involvement, got 100 gallons free. Fuller said he plans to do it again.
What do you all think?
I underlined 6 million still on oil heat because this is retarded. At $1500 a pop for a fill up and with 5 fill ups in a cold winter that's $7,500 for heating in the winter. A ground source heat pump could be installed for less than that.
Typically a ground source heat pump would run for 1/3 of that figure and at the same time free up that heating oil for diesel fuel. Another win win!!
Again......how about some government leadership (not a hand out) on this. Give some incentives in the form of tax credits not a stupid economic stimulus package of $1500 which is generally wasted on frivolous nonsense.
How about a $1,500 payment IF you yank out the old oil burner and replace with a ground source heat pump.
It would also stimulate some jobs for the heat pumps and the installs. Another win win.....a small win win but still in the win category.
__________________
Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
__________________
Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Roof, you ask, "what do I think?" Here's my $.02... I think you are right- the issue has nothing to do with Chavez grandstanding because Sununu is doing the same thing. The disgrace is not in Chavez' offer, but the fact that we are now in a position where Chavez' offer of charity is a "god-send" for so many people.
I'm not sure you can get a ground-source heat pump and all the plumbing installed for $7500- you would know far better than I would on that, so I'll take your word for it, but that seems awfully low to me based on what I've read. Twice that is what I have heard in the past.
However, I'm not sure you understand the predicament that these people facing a $7500 winter heating bill are up against- they cannot even begin to pay that, so a heat pump is pie in the sky for them. If not for charity, they would likely freeze to death in their own homes, and thanks to Chavez, they might defer that for another winter while pompous a$$es like Sununu kicks the charity in the teeth but provides nothing as an alternative. Pride goes before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction- thats what Sununu is bringing down on the new "poor."
__________________
clam the powerstroke grinch
2000 Excursion LTD 4x4
Slightly tweaked HPCR 5.9 Cummins
Allison 1000 5 speed auto
Back in 2006, when Chavez began offering free oil to Americans from Venezuela's government-controlled Citgo, New Hampshire's energy office contacted the Venezuelan Embassy about working out a deal.
But the idea galled some New Hampshire Republicans, including Sen. John Sununu, who called the it a "disgrace" and an attempt at grandstanding by Chavez, and Democratic Gov. John Lynch squelched the effort.
This year, though, "the state's role is to make sure people are aware of the program," Lynch spokesman Colin Manning said.
A lot has changed over the past two years. Back then, heating oil sold for about $2.50 per gallon in the Northeast. Last month, the average price was $4.61, with predictions of $5 per gallon oil by winter.
"The average tank is 250 to 275 gallons," Citizens spokeswoman Ashley Durmer said. "Filling it once is over $1,500. That is unfathomable that anyone can pay that price. If you have to fill the tank four times, it's going to be a devastating winter for a lot of people."
On Thursday, Sununu again criticized Chavez but said he has no problem with people or businesses accepting help from an independent nonprofit such as Citizens.
Sununu and other lawmakers around the Northeast are pressing for big increases in federal home heating aid. More than 6 million New England households rely on oil heat.
Bob Garside, president of the Oil Heat Council of New Hampshire, a trade group, predicted many of the state's 200 dealers will refuse to participate in the heating-oil giveaway. "In the past, it's been nothing but a ploy for Chavez," Garside said.
Bill Fuller, general manager of Fred Fuller Oil Co., disagreed. He began delivering fuel for Citizens last winter, when hundreds of New Hampshire residents who applied on their own, without state involvement, got 100 gallons free. Fuller said he plans to do it again.
What do you all think?
I underlined 6 million still on oil heat because this is retarded. At $1500 a pop for a fill up and with 5 fill ups in a cold winter that's $7,500 for heating in the winter. A ground source heat pump could be installed for less than that.
Typically a ground source heat pump would run for 1/3 of that figure and at the same time free up that heating oil for diesel fuel. Another win win!!
Again......how about some government leadership (not a hand out) on this. Give some incentives in the form of tax credits not a stupid economic stimulus package of $1500 which is generally wasted on frivolous nonsense.
How about a $1,500 payment IF you yank out the old oil burner and replace with a ground source heat pump.
It would also stimulate some jobs for the heat pumps and the installs. Another win win.....a small win win but still in the win category.
Logistically, a ground source heatpump requires a lot of ground to pull heat out of.
My bet is that many of these people are not sitting on enough real-estate to make using one feasible.....even the people where money wouldn't be the main issue.
I also doubt the people seaking assistance have the means to pony-up for a new heating system.
Roof, you ask, "what do I think?" Here's my $.02... I think you are right- the issue has nothing to do with Chavez grandstanding because Sununu is doing the same thing. The disgrace is not in Chavez' offer, but the fact that we are now in a position where Chavez' offer of charity is a "god-send" for so many people.
I'm not sure you can get a ground-source heat pump and all the plumbing installed for $7500- you would know far better than I would on that, so I'll take your word for it, but that seems awfully low to me based on what I've read. Twice that is what I have heard in the past.
However, I'm not sure you understand the predicament that these people facing a $7500 winter heating bill are up against- they cannot even begin to pay that, so a heat pump is pie in the sky for them. If not for charity, they would likely freeze to death in their own homes, and thanks to Chavez, they might defer that for another winter while pompous a$$es like Sununu kicks the charity in the teeth but provides nothing as an alternative. Pride goes before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction- thats what Sununu is bringing down on the new "poor."
Typical costs:
Expect to pay around $1,500-$4,500 to add an air source ("air-to-air") electric heat pump in an average home (3 ton capacity). Self-contained through-the-wall or window units in single rooms don't require ductwork; the more common split-systems (with both indoor and outdoor equipment) require the same ductwork as central air conditioning. Air-source heat pumps work best in climates where temperatures rarely drop below freezing. Higher-end models have options such as a two-stage compressor for more power when additional heat is needed or including a hot water heater as part of the system.
For about $2,100-$5,500, a dual-fuel air-source system combines an electric heat pump with a gas or propane furnace and existing ductwork. Ideal for regions with extremely cold winters, a dual-fuel system uses the best fuel source depending on outside temperatures.
It can run $3,500-$7,500 or more to install an geothermal electric heat pump in a typical family home. Also called ground-source or geoexchange, geothermal heat pumps work well in cold climates. Typically geothermal systems are inexpensive to operate and have no noisy outdoor equipment. However, installing a geothermal system usually involves digging holes 150 to 250 feet deep.
I'm going up to the lake house in Saratoga NY in a week and we are installing a heat pump for about $5,000. We already have 3 deep wells so the deep well water source is taken care of. One of the wells was a dud only putting out a gallon a minute, but that is more than enough for the heat pump.
We expect to cut our propane bill to close to zero. And our electric bill will go up by about $100 a month.
__________________
Too much junk/toys to mention, ever changing due to too getting bored too quickly. I need a 10 step program!
Want to call? I'm in the book. Want to argue....First explain the square root of negative one....lol
Logistically, a ground source heatpump requires a lot of ground to pull heat out of.
My bet is that many of these people are not sitting on enough real-estate to make using one feasible.....even the people where money wouldn't be the main issue.
I also doubt the people seaking assistance have the means to pony-up for a new heating system.
It is now possible and viable to install such a system on a small lot- the well holes are slant drilled radially from one center point.
Roof made another good point, in ground systems work well in cold climates. For my Alaska place, that might be a good option- but I'd really like to have a hydronic floor, and I'm not sure how one would go about the heat exchange mechanism for doing so.
__________________
clam the powerstroke grinch
2000 Excursion LTD 4x4
Slightly tweaked HPCR 5.9 Cummins
Allison 1000 5 speed auto
I know of one installation of a ground source heat pump here in Alaska using radiant floor heating. Circulates glycol thru a network of pipes laid below ground to the cold side of the heat pump. The hot side circulates into a water storage tank and thru the radiant floor loop. But they also have a supplemental gas-fired boiler. The downside of ground source heat pumps in really cold climates is that you essentialy have to freeze the already frozen ground to get any significant heat out of it. That is unless you have a really deep source like the wells that Richard mentions.
It is now possible and viable to install such a system on a small lot - the well holes are slant drilled radially from one center point. ...
How small? A lot of lots in South Boston are 30x150 feet, half of that has a house on it and any drilling equipment would need to be backpacked in to the back yards - no truck access.
Slant-hole drilling? How well does that work if several neighbors each do it?
Altruism or just a stunt? Who says it's an either-or choice? I'm sure it's both. Chavez is helping people who desperately need help, making Washington look sleazy and strengthening his own political clout, all at the same time.
I am a single mother with a 9-year-old boy. To stay warm at night my son and I would pull off all the pillows from the couch and pile them on the kitchen floor. I'd hang a blanket from the kitchen doorway and we'd sleep right there on the floor. By February we ran out of wood and I burned my mother's dining room furniture. I have no oil for hot water. We boil our water on the stove and pour it in the tub. I'd like to order one of your flags and hang it upside down at the capital building ... we are certainly a country in distress.
— Letter from a single mother in a Vermont city, to Senator Bernie Sanders
The Republican and Democratic conventions are just around the corner, which means that we're at a critical time in our nation's history. For this is the moment when the country's political and media consensus finally settles on the line of bull-shee-yit it will be selling to the public as the "national debate" come fall.
If you pay close attention you can actually see the trial balloons whooshing overhead. There have been numerous articles of late of the Whither the Debate? genus in the country's major dailes and news mags, pieces like Patrick Healy's "Target: Barack Obama. Strategy: What Day is it?" in the New York Times. They ostensibly wonder aloud about what respective "plans of attack" Barack Obama and John McCain will choose to pursue against one another in the fall.
In these pieces we already see the candidates trying on, like shoes, the various storylines we might soon have hammered into our heads like wartime slogans. Most hilarious from my viewpoint is the increasingly real possibility that the Republicans will eventually decide that their best shot against Obama is to pull out the old "He's a flip-flopper" strategy — which would be pathetic, given that this was the same tired tactic they used against John Kerry four years ago, were it not for the damning fact that it might actually work again. (I'm actually not sure sometimes what is more repulsive: the bosh they trot out as campaign "issues," or the enthusiasm with which the public buys it.)
Naturally we'll also see the "Patriotism Gap" storyline whipped out and reused over and over again. There will also be much talk emanating from the McCain camp about "experience," although this line of attack will not be nearly as fruitful for him as it was for Hillary Clinton, mainly because the word "experience" in McCain's case also has a habit of reminding voters that the Arizona senator is, well, wicked old.
...
A few weeks back, I got a call from someone in the office of Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. Sanders wanted to tell me about an effort his office had recently made to solicit information about his constituents? economic problems. He sent out a notice on his e-mail list asking Vermont residents to "tell me what was going on in their lives economically." He expected a few dozen letters at best — but got, instead, more than 700 in the first week alone. Some, like the excerpt posted above, sounded like typical tales of life for struggling single-parent families below the poverty line. More unnerving, however, were the stories Sanders received from people who held one or two or even three jobs, from families in which both spouses held at least one regular job — in other words, from people one would normally describe as middle-class. For example, this letter came from the owner of his own commercial cleaning service:
My 90-year-old father in Connecticut has recently become ill and asked me to visit him. I want to drop everything I am doing and go visit him, however, I am finding it hard to save enough money to add to the extra gas I'll need to get there. I make more than I did a year ago and I don't have enough to pay my property taxes this quarter for the first time in many years. They are due tomorrow. ...
__________________
-
Douglas Campbell [drcampbell ot engineer dat kahm]
November 5, 2008: The fat lady sang. Back to actually working for a living.
1986 Isuzu P'up, 177,673.8 miles. Hella headlights, (highly recommended) DOT C-2 back end. (also recommended) R-12 air conditioner converted to R-406a. 4.1:1 rear axle converted to 3.4:1.
9/22/2007, age 21: Still running well when reluctantly sent away for reincarnation, due to body & frame rust.
Last edited by drcampbell : 07-23-2008 at 10:32 PM.
The article I read a few years ago showed a drill rig set up in a nearly microscopic yard. They used a crane to lift the rig over the house and went to work. The well-head area took up about 3 feet by 3 feet when done, iirc. How much land is required? I don't know. I suggest you google "ground source heat pump."
__________________
clam the powerstroke grinch
2000 Excursion LTD 4x4
Slightly tweaked HPCR 5.9 Cummins
Allison 1000 5 speed auto
), AIS, 
Linear Mode
