End of life discussions

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave

So, what do you advocate?

I think I've made that pretty clear.

I advocate a single-payer system that eliminates the for-profit entities of health insurance providers and a control on drug companies.

Or are you just incapable of making a voluntary decision on your own?

I have no idea of what you're talking about.

Are you going to make the rules for government taking from individuals?

Why don't you read this (of which I can't take credit) and then tell me about how 'bad' government oversight really is and how they have "taken from individuals".......LOL......

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issed by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it's valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right."

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

I think I've made that pretty clear.

I advocate a single-payer system that eliminates the for-profit entities of health insurance providers and a control on drug companies.

So, you don't support minorities.

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

I have no idea of what you're talking about.

That is quite clear as you are stating it.

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

Why don't you read this (of which I can't take credit) and then tell me about how 'bad' government oversight really is and how they have "taken from individuals".......LOL......

Right, because electricity prices are non under control and continue to go up because of inefficiency and poor policy. And water prices and restriction have went up and availability down because of inefficiency and bureaucracy.

At least you're stating your true colors.

Are you advocating for the state ownership of your wages, property, and family rights?

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave

So, you don't support minorities.

LOL! Me, of all people, being accused of this?

That is quite clear as you are stating it.

You still didn't explain what you're talking about.

At least you're stating your true colors.

That I believe, as a citizen of the greatest country this planet has ever seen, that the right thing to do is to ensure health benefits for all American citizens? Gee, that must make me a really greedy, self-absorbed person...eh?

I am completely comfortable with my "true colors."

Then again, it would be a whole lot easier (with a lot less grief) to just join the...."I got mine, screw you" crowd.

Are you advocating for the state ownership of your wages, property, and family rights?

Absolutely not. And the two are not synonymous in the least.

I'll say it again.............. to me, affordable health care provided to all Americans should be a priority and I don't know how you get there without at least a 'public option' plan or better yet.........a single-payer system.

Take the time to go look up how we stack up against most of the rest of the developed world in this area.

Ah heck, I'll go ahead and make a quick comparison for you with the UK (which is not even considered the best example)..............

Healthcare comparison
Health spending as a share of GDP
US 16%
UK 8.4%
Public spending on healthcare (% of total spending on healthcare)
US 45%
UK 82%
Health spending per head
US $7,290
UK $2,992
Practicing physicians (per 1,000 people)
US 2.4
UK 2.5
Nurses (per 1,000 people)
US 10.6
UK 10.0
Acute care hospital beds (per 1,000 people)
US 2.7
UK 2.6
Life expectancy:
US 78
UK 80
Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births)
US 6.7
UK 4.8
Source: WHO/OECD Health Data 2009

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave

I am.

Why should your kids be enslaved to pay for my wife's parents health care?

I already do pay for their healthcare through private health insurance.

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave

Well, let's take it further back: FDR. Further yet: Wilson. How about Jackson when representation became, "To the victor go the spoils."

Constitutional government was supposed to protect the individual, not to "do the will of the voters". This has went from a republic to a democracy, and a democracy is a neighbor of socialism.

As everything is now "for the people", and that is counter to protecting the individual.

I can think of lots of countries with weak governments that don't do anything for their people.

Maybe you might feel better in Rwanda or something.

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by checkthisout

I can think of lots of countries with weak governments that don't do anything for their people.

Maybe you might feel better in Rwanda or something.

THAT'S gonna leave a mark.

[Super_Dave]

I've read the same stuff that you two post on other forums.

As for Rwanda, same centralized control that you advocate for "good for the people" which has never materialized other than privilege for the elite and the beauty of suffering for the masses.

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave

I've read the same stuff that you two post on other forums.
.

Do I already pay for you and your parents care through my health insurance premiums especially since my employer and I have paid in around $40,000 in the last 5-6 years and I have only used maybe 4k of that?

Yes or no?

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by checkthisout

Do I already pay for you and your parents care through my health insurance premiums especially since my employer and I have paid in around $40,000 in the last 5-6 years and I have only used maybe 4k of that?

Yes or no?

If you're paying health insurance, that is your choice.

Similarly, my immediate family pays by choice and has used a very, very small amount.

My parents are dead.

You don't pay for our care, and if you say you do, then you are doing it voluntarily in insurance through a value for value system.

[kude]

I heard on WGN radio a discussion that Medicare already includes end of life counseling.

What the bill being discussed had, was end of life for non senior citizens, which naturally raises the question of who decides what and when to cut services for everybody else. You could see the concern of some parents for their special needs children.

It doesn't matter because this end of life stuff is being pulled out of the senate bill. But most doctors make this choice with family anyway.

Now the public option, that is government funded through taxes option is also on its way out to be replaced with cooperatives. I assume medicare and medicaid still apply to those that won't have money for co-ops.

On different forums I've heard a fireman complain that he had health insurance but didn't want to pay his share of his medical expenses (co-pays and drugs). This is the basic mentality of a lot of people, they don't want to spend one dime of their own money. This is the danger of the public option. Employer based health insurance is tied to productivity and making money. The public option is tied to taxation. What's happens when you run out of money in either case, you have to cut back. But a private company only cuts back on its employess, but a tax based system cuts back across the board. You can tax the rich until they run out of money and then start taxing taxing the middle class, and then you lose the next election.

I read another guy, underemployed who just didn't want to apply for medicaid saying it took 4 days for ther paperwork to clear. What kind of BS system is that when your are sick.

Well whatever they do, things need to be automatic. Lose your job, the government covers you, but you pay taxes back to replace that money spent. Don't have co-op, you are forced to invest in one, no matter what or you are taxed extra for that too.

How about making it a crime, child abuse, if you have a family and don't buy insurance for them? That should be in the law.

I agree, that insurance companies need to not discriminate against prior conditions, or drop people for making claims. Make that a class 1 felony and see how the companies act then. They ought to enact that ASAP, why wait until 2013? Thank god they had a law that said prior conditions don't apply to group policies, and you can't be excluded, because that's how I got coverage. So laws can make some positive changes in the current system.

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by kude

What the bill being discussed had, was end of life for non senior citizens, which naturally raises the question of who decides what and when to cut services for everybody else. You could see the concern of some parents for their special needs children.

No, I really can't see the concern. "End of life counseling" has never meant anything other than if you are terminally ill.......and possibly on life support.....what do you want to happen. That's what's called an "Advance Directive" (or living will). It's only people like Palin.....or those who can't comprehend past the 6th grade level......that took it any other way.

Now the public option, that is government funded through taxes option is also on its way out to be replaced with cooperatives. I assume medicare and medicaid still apply to those that won't have money for co-ops.

As long as the 'for-profits' don't weed out those that they don't want to cover, even under 'group plans,' so that they can maximize their profits......it might be a good compromise.

On different forums I've heard a fireman complain that he had health insurance but didn't want to pay his share of his medical expenses (co-pays and drugs). This is the basic mentality of a lot of people, they don't want to spend one dime of their own money. This is the danger of the public option. Employer based health insurance is tied to productivity and making money. The public option is tied to taxation. What's happens when you run out of money in either case, you have to cut back. But a private company only cuts back on its employess, but a tax based system cuts back across the board. You can tax the rich until they run out of money and then start taxing taxing the middle class, and then you lose the next election.

The issue to me has always been to offer affordable health care. If it was single-payer system, then each individual would not have to pay as it would be funded by taxes. Which if you look at one of my earlier posts, you will see that we currently pay over twice as much per person than the next closest developed country. But, you are right. If you have to pay something for it......it becomes much more valuable.

I read another guy, underemployed who just didn't want to apply for medicaid saying it took 4 days for ther paperwork to clear. What kind of BS system is that when your are sick.

And then there are a lot of people who say their Medicare/Medicaid is wonderful. Anecdotal stories are.......... just that.

Well whatever they do, things need to be automatic. Lose your job, the government covers you, but you pay taxes back to replace that money spent. Don't have co-op, you are forced to invest in one, no matter what or you are taxed extra for that too.

How about making it a crime, child abuse, if you have a family and don't buy insurance for them? That should be in the law.

I mostly agree.

I agree, that insurance companies need to not discriminate against prior conditions, or drop people for making claims. Make that a class 1 felony and see how the companies act then. They ought to enact that ASAP, why wait until 2013? Thank god they had a law that said prior conditions don't apply to group policies, and you can't be excluded, because that's how I got coverage. So laws can make some positive changes in the current system.

So you can easily see the dilemma of all those people who own their own business or are farmers/ranchers. They typically can't get a 'group plan.'

[checkthisout]

The issue was not end of life directives but the fact that a committee, independent of congress, was going to decide what costs to cut and for who based on the dollar value (productivity) of their lives.

Obama's only intent is to increase insurance company income (thus the subsidy to buy private insurance) and increase money passing through the treasury that can be borrowed against. Many health insurance have large investment houses as owner/shareholders with lots of CDO's taken out against them.

There aint no nobility in what he's trying to do and the people who are in charge of setting it up are pieces of crap who are shills for the financial industry.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

No, I really can't see the concern.

Your concern is irrelevant to another's choice and right to health care opportunities.

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

As long as the 'for-profits' don't weed out those that they don't want to cover, even under 'group plans,' so that they can maximize their profits......it might be a good compromise.

Government is no different. Well, it is. It has power to eliminate choice and is inefficient. Worthless to state the obvious examples over and over.

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

The issue to me has always been to offer affordable health care.

Medicare and Medicaid has not been that. It doesn't pay it's way, and it is not sustainable. It is part of the problem for costs that are being passed down to insurance companies and private payers.

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave

Your concern is irrelevant to another's choice and right to health care opportunities.


Government is no different. Well, it is. It has power to eliminate choice and is inefficient. Worthless to state the obvious examples over and over.


Medicare and Medicaid has not been that. It doesn't pay it's way, and it is not sustainable. It is part of the problem for costs that are being passed down to insurance companies and private payers.

Why are Medicare and Medicaid unsustainable?

What is the difference between increasing their tax and a private insurance company charging ever-increasing rates?

And, of course the core problem at the root of all this is our deteriorating economy which makes it harder and harder for the individual to afford anything whether it's public or private.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by checkthisout

What is the difference between increasing their tax and a private insurance company charging ever-increasing rates?

Choice. One can, and there are those that do, choose not to be insured. And one can choose items to be insured for. However, government has mandated that individual private insurance cover specific items that most individuals now can not opt out of. That has increased the cost of insurance.

Medicare/Medicaid still does not pay the market value of a service. And as income is contintually reduced and jobs move, fewer to pay.

Don't forget, choice.

Originally Posted by checkthisout

And, of course the core problem at the root of all this is our deteriorating economy which makes it harder and harder for the individual to afford anything whether it's public or private.

And that's from a government built upon debt. Socialism works until the money starts to run out from the individuals that still decide to contribute. Why work or even desire to do much when the government take is more and more and more. Ship the jobs over seas and sell a little in retail here, if you like.