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I frequently go through old handyman mags. Just came across an advertisement for Ford and Dodge cars in 1983.
The Ford ranger with their Diesel 2.2 is advertised at 41mpg.
The Dodge rampage is advertised at 42mpg.
Somehow we are going to mandate the same mpg we were already getting 25 years ago?
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1996 F-250 extended cab long box five speed. Home made Tymar, 203 Stat, 60 gal in bed fuel cell, 315/75's, no muffler, ebpv welded open 3" to 3" DP, Babies. 290K, still chugging, and still smoking when cold.
UPDATED 1/1/09 Replace so far. 1 LUK flywheel+clutch, 2 thermostats, 2 set of brakes, 1 set of calipers, 5 CPS, 3 sets of tires, 2 Transfer pumps, 1 Injector modual, 1 Computer, 2 Alt, 2 sets of batteries, 1 Water pump, 6 Belts, 1 PS hose, 2 Sets ball joints, 2 set u-joints, 2 carrier bearing, 2 Speed sensors, 1 oil pres sender, 1 temp sender, 4 sets of e-break cables, 1 front fuel tank, 2 rear fuel tanks, 2 set of glow plugs, 7 Glow plug relays, Oil galley o-rings, Turbo pedistal o-rings, EBPV o-rings, 3 sets of Injector O-rings, 1 Vac-pump, 1 new carpet, 1 total paint job.Total $$$ in repairs v/s miles driven = 4.6 cents per mile. Add fuel to that it jumps to 16.5 cents per mile over the life of the truck.
With one wrinkle: The EPA has changed the way it estimates MPG. Starting in model year 2008, estimates reflect the effects of Faster Speeds & Acceleration, Air Conditioner Use and Colder Outside Temperatures. The tests lower MPG estimates for most vehicles. (the vehicle obviously gets the same mileage no matter how it's tested, but there's less of a spread between the estimate on the window sticker and real-world mileage now) 2008 Fuel Economy Tests
I wish more people would sit up and take notice; they'd be a lot more likely to turn a deaf ear to the Big 3 whining about it being infeasible with today's technology.
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Douglas Campbell, P.E.
1986 Isuzu P'up, 177,673.8 miles.
- Hella headlights (highly recommended)
- DOT C-2 back end (also recommended)
- R-12 air conditioner converted to R-406a. Saved ozone and money
- 4.1:1 final drive converted to 3.4:1. Quieter, better mileage but it's a good thing I live in the flat Midwest.
- 9/22/2007, age 21: Still running well when reluctantly sent away for reincarnation, due to body & frame rust.
My wifes 06 Civic is rated at 41 mpg. While I can not get 41 I have been able to achieve 40 many times. In 1983 all the hp numbers were low, but the mpg were there.
The other thing is that the wonderful EPA has taken all that hp and turned it into emmisions. I wonder what an engine would pollute if they gave the manufacturers the ability to make a fuel efficiant engine without the epa over their shoulder?
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1996 F-250 extended cab long box five speed. Home made Tymar, 203 Stat, 60 gal in bed fuel cell, 315/75's, no muffler, ebpv welded open 3" to 3" DP, Babies. 290K, still chugging, and still smoking when cold.
UPDATED 1/1/09 Replace so far. 1 LUK flywheel+clutch, 2 thermostats, 2 set of brakes, 1 set of calipers, 5 CPS, 3 sets of tires, 2 Transfer pumps, 1 Injector modual, 1 Computer, 2 Alt, 2 sets of batteries, 1 Water pump, 6 Belts, 1 PS hose, 2 Sets ball joints, 2 set u-joints, 2 carrier bearing, 2 Speed sensors, 1 oil pres sender, 1 temp sender, 4 sets of e-break cables, 1 front fuel tank, 2 rear fuel tanks, 2 set of glow plugs, 7 Glow plug relays, Oil galley o-rings, Turbo pedistal o-rings, EBPV o-rings, 3 sets of Injector O-rings, 1 Vac-pump, 1 new carpet, 1 total paint job.Total $$$ in repairs v/s miles driven = 4.6 cents per mile. Add fuel to that it jumps to 16.5 cents per mile over the life of the truck.
Not that I'm a fan of government by any means, but time has shown that carmakers will produce efficient vehicles under two circumstances:
1. The people "demand" it, and
2. The government makes them
#1 obviously works the best... when the consumers wanted MPGs in the late 70s to late 80s, the carmakers delivered, with gas and diesel engines. (My 1987 Grand Marquis still gets over 27mpg to this day, and that's with a 302, and a solid steel body with chrome everywhere!)
More of a problem comes in when the government mandates more efficiency... it's simply a daunting task to require "x" MPG, while using "y" amount of ethanol/renewable fuel, and polluting "z" (i.e. don't pollute).
Pick one of these things to carmakers to work on at a time (like high mpgs, which we know they can do), and you'll probably get faster, and cheaper results.
The other thing is that the wonderful EPA has taken all that hp and turned it into [emissions]. I wonder what an engine would pollute if they gave the manufacturers the ability to make a fuel [efficient] engine without the epa over their shoulder?
The fuel efficiency and volumetric efficiency gains of the past 30 years would never have happened without emission standards. It was emission control mandates which forced automakers to advance the state of the art.
__________________
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Douglas Campbell, P.E.
1986 Isuzu P'up, 177,673.8 miles.
- Hella headlights (highly recommended)
- DOT C-2 back end (also recommended)
- R-12 air conditioner converted to R-406a. Saved ozone and money
- 4.1:1 final drive converted to 3.4:1. Quieter, better mileage but it's a good thing I live in the flat Midwest.
- 9/22/2007, age 21: Still running well when reluctantly sent away for reincarnation, due to body & frame rust.
The fuel efficiency and volumetric efficiency gains of the past 30 years would never have happened without emission standards. It was emission control mandates which forced automakers to advance the state of the art.
You can't prove a negative. That's a straw man.
Customers have asked for increased performance. That requires more efficiency of the overall process. Whether that's advanced ECM's, new casing processes for parts, ceramic bearings, or coatings to reduce friction, it's still what is wanted by a consumer...and produced by a manufacturer.
Government produces debt. Should produce protection.
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Super Dave
2006 E350 6.0PSD
2003 Excursion Limited 4WD 7.3PSD - Sold
1996 E350 Super Duty bus 7.3PSD - Sold
(My 1987 Grand Marquis still gets over 27mpg to this day, and that's with a 302, and a solid steel body with chrome everywhere!)
Yes, I would expect more gains since 1987. My daily driver is a 1996 Impala SS which weighs in around #4500 and is powered by a Corvette LT1 5.7L V8 and has "power everything". The window sticker shows an EPA est of 16 MPG city, 26 MPG hwy but I've seen as high as 28-29 on the highway (hand calculated over two or three tanks and cruising @ +/- 70 MPH).
13 years and not much progress.....???
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'06 Ram 3500 4X4 QC CTD 6sp LB
'01 F350 PSD 4X4 6sp Crew Cab (sold)
'68 F250 C/S 4X2 C6/428PI
Stidham 24' enclosed car hauler
Bunch of big old cars
In theory, practice and theory are the same.
In practice, they are not.
My bad....more of a statement than question. I'm curious why today's smaller, lighter, slower and more cramped sedans don't show better MPG than my old Chevy Boat. Where has tech led us in 13 years?
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'06 Ram 3500 4X4 QC CTD 6sp LB
'01 F350 PSD 4X4 6sp Crew Cab (sold)
'68 F250 C/S 4X2 C6/428PI
Stidham 24' enclosed car hauler
Bunch of big old cars
In theory, practice and theory are the same.
In practice, they are not.
My bad....more of a statement than question. I'm curious why today's smaller, lighter, slower and more cramped sedans don't show better MPG than my old Chevy Boat. Where has tech led us in 13 years?
Thank you.
Agreed.
I fail to recognize where anything related to government mandates actually has a relationship to the thing it immediately regulates.
Example. Claim: pollution from fossil fuels. Mandate: ethanol required in areas. Fact: ethanol has less Btu's than gasoline and results in less economy and now California is even recognizing that it generates more pollution. Real result: more gallons burned per mile generates more income for ponzi scheme of government road tax.
__________________
Super Dave
2006 E350 6.0PSD
2003 Excursion Limited 4WD 7.3PSD - Sold
1996 E350 Super Duty bus 7.3PSD - Sold
Example. Claim: pollution from fossil fuels. Mandate: ethanol required in areas. Fact: ethanol has less Btu's than gasoline and results in less economy and now California is even recognizing that it generates more pollution. Real result: more gallons burned per mile generates more income for ponzi scheme of government road tax.
Not to mention that when you factor in the petroleum required (diesel for the tractors that work the corn fields, petro based fertilizers, energy required for distillation etc) you are burning more gallons of petro than you are creating in gallons of ethanol to produce about 30% less efficiency in the combustion chamber and polluting more.....
the greenies at their finest......
__________________
'06 Ram 3500 4X4 QC CTD 6sp LB
'01 F350 PSD 4X4 6sp Crew Cab (sold)
'68 F250 C/S 4X2 C6/428PI
Stidham 24' enclosed car hauler
Bunch of big old cars
In theory, practice and theory are the same.
In practice, they are not.
1986 Isuzu P'up, 177,673.8 miles.
- Hella headlights (highly recommended)
- DOT C-2 back end (also recommended)
- R-12 air conditioner converted to R-406a. Saved ozone and money
- 4.1:1 final drive converted to 3.4:1. Quieter, better mileage but it's a good thing I live in the flat Midwest.
- 9/22/2007, age 21: Still running well when reluctantly sent away for reincarnation, due to body & frame rust.
Last edited by drcampbell; 05-30-2009 at 06:07 AM.
I frequently go through old handyman mags. Just came across an advertisement for Ford and Dodge cars in 1983.
The Ford ranger with their Diesel 2.2 is advertised at 41mpg.
The Dodge rampage is advertised at 42mpg.
Somehow we are going to mandate the same mpg we were already getting 25 years ago?
Is life not grand?We the people let the makers back slide over the years for more stuff and less mpg.We the people should have stood our ground and demanded better and better mpg and they would have done it.Why is it that we the people need the Government to do it for us?
__________________
Winter is here again, and yes I mean WINTER.. the temps are likely to reach -25F and then there is the snow and the dark.
2000 E350 7.3PSD, Hellwig Stablizer bar,140 Lightforce with covers, 55Watt High/Lows HID's , extras in the bumper. 4"Aero Turbin and 4" all the way back. 1705 program, Scangauge II,265/75/16E Toyo Open Country, My Photos http://photos.thedieselstop.com/showgall...&stype=&ppuser=
"FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION"
IT IS MINE ALL MINE.....(The Van that is, it has been Released by Lenholder)
Their opposition is recent. Biofuels have been touted for a long time.
What is agenda now? Huts and push carts? Oops! People generate CO2, so they have to go too. Seriously, I can only recognize emotional talk from them. Cooling, warming, particulate problems causing problems, blowing up stuff in the atmosphere now to put particulates in the atmosphere to control warming...which isn't even warming...all without the ability to say what the "real temperature" of the earth should be.
__________________
Super Dave
2006 E350 6.0PSD
2003 Excursion Limited 4WD 7.3PSD - Sold
1996 E350 Super Duty bus 7.3PSD - Sold
Yes, I would expect more gains since 1987. My daily driver is a 1996 Impala SS which weighs in around #4500 and is powered by a Corvette LT1 5.7L V8 and has "power everything". The window sticker shows an EPA est of 16 MPG city, 26 MPG hwy but I've seen as high as 28-29 on the highway (hand calculated over two or three tanks and cruising @ +/- 70 MPH).
13 years and not much progress.....???
It shows that combustion technology matured long ago.
The only way to gain efficiency is through hybridization, using lighter materials and smaller tires, reducing wind-resistance and through the use of a more efficient drivetrain (think CVT, 6 and 7 speed transmissions) etc.........
Honda is known for efficient engines but look at what their Ridgeline pick-up, Odyssey Vans and Pilot get for mileage.
Last edited by checkthisout; 05-30-2009 at 07:42 AM.
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