Purchase health insurance or pay a $1,000+ fine

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by BobR

AK?!? What happened? Just a few days ago you posted a great note where you quoted Ben Franklin in an impassioned defense of Freedom!:

liberty

Well, it was great while it lasted. We now return to calling for ever more government control of our lives.

I'm not sure how you made that leap.

In that thread I was talking about the 'Freedom' which allows us to live our lives without the government spying or dictating our every move in private.

Health care for all Americans does neither.

And now you're talking about only following what (in your opinion) the Constitution allows.

They're not even close to being the same.

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[BobR]

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

I'm not sure how you made that leap.

In that thread I was talking about the 'Freedom' which allows us to live our lives without the government spying or dictating our every move in private.

Health care for all Americans does neither.

Sorry if I misquoted you.

I agree with you and want to be free of government spying, dictating, etc.

That said, in this post-9/11 time in our history, I can live with the NSA having a computer monitor each and every overseas phone call that I may (or may not) make to nations where terrorists reside and/or are trained.

On the other hand, the federal government forcing me to purchase a health insurance policy or pay a hefty penalty to the IRS hits me right where I live. That loss of income will negatively impact my family and small business.

I'm not a big fan of the Patriot Act and think that it should have a sunset clause to get rid of it. Having admitted that, can you state where the Patriot Act has impacted your life as much as my having to fork over thousands of dollars towards an insurance policy (or penalty) that I do not want to purchase at this time? Please give a specific example.

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

And now you're talking about only following what (in your opinion) the Constitution allows.

They're not even close to being the same.

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You are correct that I believe that the Constitution does not allow the federal government to force me to purchase health insurance.

Can you explain how the interstate commerce clause, stated here in its entirety can COMPEL a citizen to make a purchase they do not want to?

Originally Posted by US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

I look forward to your explanation.

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by BobR

Well, it was great while it lasted. We now return to calling for ever more government control of our lives.

It's the other way around. It's just that we have let the people we want to control get control of the system designed to control them through complacency and republican "throw the chips in the air and let god sort them out" values.

Many of us do not want to be submissive to bankers so we used our government to REGULATE them and bring them under the submission and control of the people.

With Republican and more recently, democratic deregulation, the opposite has been done.

FDR spun his coffin to China the day George Bush and congress gave away 750 billion in taxpayer dollars to investment bankers and let Goldman Sachs convert to a bank holding corporation.

What a bunch of perverts. Letting those bankers run the country into the ground like that. Who on earth believes that no rules and a weak government are the answer to abuses of the people by Private Bankers?

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by BobR

You are correct that I believe that the Constitution does not allow the federal government to force me to purchase health insurance.

So tell me, where does the Constitution "force" you to pay Federal Income tax either? Yet, you do because it's the law.

And that's what I'm trying to tell you. Laws are promulgated even if they are/aren't spelled out in the Constitution. Therefore, you have a specious argument to keep leaning on it to justify what can/can't be done.

Can you explain how the interstate commerce clause, stated here in its entirety can COMPEL a citizen to make a purchase they do not want to?

Nope.

I don't think it should have even been mentioned as the impetus behind the legislation. But then, I think Pelosi is barely smarter than Bush and.......that's not saying much.

I look forward to your explanation.

Are you sure?

[BobR]

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

So tell me, where does the Constitution "force" you to pay Federal Income tax either? Yet, you do because it's the law.

Actually,the Constitution does compel me to pay income tax. The 16th amendment reads:

Originally Posted by "US Constitution, 16th Amendment

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

So I guess you came up dry on examples where the federal government has previously forced citizens to make a purchase against their will.

And left unsaid in my earlier note is the larger loss of freedom where the government will now be involved in the most private of decisions regarding the health care for you and your family. As our president has said "Maybe instead of expensive surgery, we can just give Grandma a pill to manage her pain". A government bureaucrat having the ability to arbitrarily deny medical coverage that I could have purchased in an open market is certainly a loss of freedom.

I would rather have the ability to shop around and find my own medical care and/or insurance. Remove the barriers that prohibit me from purchasing insurance out of state. If coverage is too expensive, I'll work three jobs instead of my current two.

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

I don't think it should have even been mentioned as the impetus behind the legislation.

So you think that no Constitutional authority is necessary. Thanks for your honest opinion!

I'm still waiting for your personal horror story about your being denied freedom by the Patriot Act.

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by BobR

Actually,the Constitution does compel me to pay income tax. The 16th amendment reads:

So I guess you came up dry on examples where the federal government has previously forced citizens to make a purchase against their will.

You bit.

So call it a 'non-health insurance' tax, it's then covered under the Constitution and you're OK with it.....right?

I'm still waiting for your personal horror story about your being denied freedom by the Patriot Act.

When have I ever said I have been impacted?

That certainly doesn't mean I will wait until something happens to me personally, before I take offense of spying on American citizens.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by BobR

We would need a supreme court that respected the Constitution. They would have to acknowledge that much of what our federal government does is beyond the clear limits placed on it by the Constitution.

How, exactly? Supreme Court Justices are nominated by the (elected) President and confirmed by the (elected) Senate.

Originally Posted by BobR

... Instead, we have the speaker of the House, when asked, "Where does the Constitution grant the power ... " ...

If "regulating interstate commerce" gives them that ability, what is next? WHERE DOES THEIR POWER END?

I dunno. Maybe with the power to conscript citizens into military service, endangering or taking lives, restricting liberties and postponing the pursuit of happiness?

Nancy Pelosi may be a lousy liar when put on the spot and not much of a Constitutional scholar, but the fact is that Congress does have the power to impose taxes and appropriate funds any way it sees fit.


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[BobR]

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

You bit.

So call it a 'non-health insurance' tax, it's then covered under the Constitution and you're OK with it.....right?

no, No, NO! It can not be called a tax!

If it is a tax, then that would mean that our president has failed to uphold his promise of "not one dime of new taxes" on those that earn more than $250,000, oops, let's make that $200,000, correction, $150,000, ....

And we know that our president's word is as good as gold. Well, maybe not gold, but it's as good and as strong as our dollar.

[BobR]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

How, exactly? Supreme Court Justices are nominated by the (elected) President and confirmed by the (elected) Senate.

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You are right. It cannot and will not happen until we decide to elect representatives that will honor their sworn pledge to uphold and defend the Constitution.

We've certainly not done that in recent history. Perhaps one day we will realize the tremendous cost (in terms of $$$ and lost freedoms) of having the government take over most of our economy and control much of our lives.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by BobR

... the tremendous cost (in terms of $$$ and lost freedoms) ...

I'm having difficulty following your line(s) of thought - is this an economic or a philosophical argument? Are you suffering from the delusion that only the federal government can compromise your freedom?

How many Americans are handcuffed to their job by a pre-existing medical condition?

Canadians have a comprehensive single-payer health insurance system. Each Canadian is free to quit his job and look for a better one or establish an entrepreneurship without any concern of losing his family's health insurance coverage, losing eligibility to ever get health insurance again or losing coverage for pre-existing conditions. The phrase, "pre-existing condition" doesn't even exist in Canada.

That's pretty gosh-darn liberating.

If the question is about economics, consider that Canadians pay half what we do for the same or better results. They just pay it through the government instead of through employers and insurance corporations.

[AK_Gandy]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

Canadians have a comprehensive single-payer health insurance system. Each Canadian is free to quit his job and look for a better one or establish an entrepreneurship without any concern of losing his family's health insurance coverage, losing eligibility to ever get health insurance again or losing coverage for pre-existing conditions. The phrase, "pre-existing condition" doesn't even exist in Canada.

That's pretty gosh-darn liberating.

Too bad that can't be stamped on some people's forehead's (backward of course so they can read it while staring at themselves in the mirror).

Maybe, just maybe it might then sink in.


Naaaahhhhh, probably not.
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