Shale oil

[clamgulch]

Great discussion. Sounds like we're back to what I said at the beginning though...

So once again, FOLLOW THE MONEY.

[checkthisout]

Originally Posted by UTAH

I think we can do both - develop energy resources AND protect the environment.
Bill

We already do that though.

The Psuedo-Environmentalists like Gore are merely there to make a buck. That's it. It's his only interest and the only reason he does what he does.

[muntu]

bullcrap........how did you come to that conclusion??......money is gonna be made which ever way we go....gadgets dont just fall like free rain. t boone will make a handsome profit from his windmills....so what.if his cng conversion catches on he'll make bucks there. and is he doing it ONLY for the $'s...no,the man's a patriot trying to see if he can dig us out of a hole.gore gave t.boone pickens kudos on meet the press yesterday morning and he also suggested that maybe going from carbon then to gas to then elecric is one step to many....meaning direct to elecric from carbon and i think that is smart thinking.this is not to say that diesel and jetfuel will no longer be produced..but gore in it just for the bucks......dont think so.

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by muntu

bullcrap........how did you come to that conclusion??......money is gonna be made which ever way we go....gadgets don't just fall like free rain. t Boone will make a handsome profit from his windmills....so what.if his cng conversion catches on he'll make bucks there. and is he doing it ONLY for the $'s...no,the man's a patriot trying to see if he can dig us out of a hole.gore gave t.Boone Pickens kudos on meet the press yesterday morning and he also suggested that maybe going from carbon then to gas to then electric is one step to many....meaning direct to electric from carbon and i think that is smart thinking.this is not to say that diesel and jet-fuel will no longer be produced..but gore in it just for the bucks......dont think so.

Do we skip from wind/solar to CNG to the tank? Wind/solar gets in the tank HOW?????? excuse me this is nonsense, there is no technology to store that much energy in batteries.

I'm in solar in a big way and I wish there was. A small golf cart or a Prius can go 20 possibly 40 miles with a lot of very expensive batteries.

BTW: batteries have their own pollution issues!!!!

Applauding Gore like he just found the cure for cancer is dishonest on all of the major medias part.

I don't think Gore is in it for the money. I think he is in it because he is wanting worldwide pats on the back to his personal ego. Unfortunately the general media has jumped on this false bandwagon.

I think most of you that have been around know who I really am and what I really do. I'm an owner and consultant to the construction industry with mechanical and civil engineering background. I'm in it for two reasons. #1 I really believe in saving the country from economic doom. #2 I want to make money. #3 I want to pass on something to my daughter of value.

That said: Read and try to understand!!!! to move a large truck down the road it takes X amount of energy, you can't defy the laws of physics. You need x BTU or therms of energy. You can't plug in an extension cord to drive from NY to Florida so you have to store X therms some way. There are only a few options.

1. Batteries. Large expensive and range will be minimal.
2. Gas/Diesel. The most power in the smallest package.
3. Propane. About 1/3 the range (because of volume) but possible.
4. CNG. Also possible BUT again the range is limited. We do have a lot of NG!!
5. Atomic reactor. This actually could run a 18 wheel truck for 5 million miles on one fill up. Expensive and try to get a permit to build this.
6. Clean hydrogen. Ha ha. Well with 250 reactors making hydrogen gas it would be possible but again range is limited because of hydrogen volume.

All are extreme challenges and constraints that Gore and company miss. do they miss because they intend to miss or because they do not have the technical knowledge. I say both!!!

What is bad is that while we listen to the Gore BS we delay the real solutions available.

1. Conversion to ALL diesels would save 30%!!!! Realizing that 30% is not eliminating oil but 30% is major.

2. Conversion of all homes that are heated by diesel to ground source heat pumps. In the north East for instance there are STILL 6 million homes that use 300 gallons a month during the 4 months season. Do the math.
300 X 6 million = 1,800,000,000 gallons of diesel a month for heat and then only in the NE!!! Stupid Stupid.

3. Detroit STILL building F-150/250/350's, Expeditions, suburbans, that get 12 mpg while the rest of the world laughs at us.

Here is some math for ya. My house has 20 or so light bulbs that are 80 watt which equals 1600 watts or 1.6 KW. OK? All were converted to LEDS that draw only 3 watts. 3 watts X 20 bulbs = 60 watts or a savings of 1500 + watts or 1.5 KW. OK OK they are not all on at the same time so how about 1/2 the time??? .75 KW all day every day times how many houses in the USA? Again do the math!

We are presently doing a 6KW solar install so that during the hours of 9 am to about 5 pm we will actually make more power than we use.

If you do some searching you can find that we are presently doing a 12 million watt install on the GM/Opel plant in Spain. 4,000 homes powered!

My father in law a 75 year old PhD mechanical engineer is designing and installing garbage-methane power plants in many landfills. Some are 5 million watts each powering 1/4 of the town homes. While doing this we also remove methane from the world which is a good thing.

Point being there is a lot of REAL things available NOW and Gore wants to basically skip them and the press cheers him on!

Please Think a bit beyond what you hear on the news!

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by UTAH

Hmmm... so why the need to discuss options? If the Wilderness Society controls Congress as you claim, then that's all we need to know. All of their agenda items will be achieved. There's no need for you or anybody else to even weigh in on the subject.

You've abdicated and handed the Greens the win. That's noble of you. And, as noted - I applaud that.

This is good stuff. I'll be sure to chime in on our future environmental discussions to ask, "Why the discussion? According to our resident expert, the Greens control Congress - so the Green agenda is a done deal. There's nothing we can do."

For me, I'll continue to seek more balance and input from all concerned groups about our environmental policy. We're all in this together as part of a Democracy. I'm not declaring defeat and giving the win that easily to the opposition.

Bill

Or declaring defeat that is not what I said AT ALL. you know better DON'T SPIN ME! What I do object to is that the general press will not challenge them. There are solutions and many of the solutions will make money for a lot of the people that made money in the past. That sticks in the craw with the liberal media. If one of the good old boys will make money it's bad but, if Ben and Jerry's makes money it's OK even great!

[JoeVacs]

Way to go ! Tell the world, LOUDLY !
I think more people get it than it seems, They just aren't carrier protestors so the media doesn't talk about them ( I should say us ).

Originally Posted by roofeditor

Do we skip from wind/solar to CNG to the tank? Wind/solar gets in the tank HOW?????? excuse me this is nonsense, there is no technology to store that much energy in batteries.

I'm in solar in a big way and I wish there was. A small golf cart or a Prius can go 20 possibly 40 miles with a lot of very expensive batteries.

BTW: batteries have their own pollution issues!!!!

Applauding Gore like he just found the cure for cancer is dishonest on all of the major medias part.

I don't think Gore is in it for the money. I think he is in it because he is wanting worldwide pats on the back to his personal ego. Unfortunately the general media has jumped on this false bandwagon.

I think most of you that have been around know who I really am and what I really do. I'm an owner and consultant to the construction industry with mechanical and civil engineering background. I'm in it for two reasons. #1 I really believe in saving the country from economic doom. #2 I want to make money. #3 I want to pass on something to my daughter of value.

That said: Read and try to understand!!!! to move a large truck down the road it takes X amount of energy, you can't defy the laws of physics. You need x BTU or therms of energy. You can't plug in an extension cord to drive from NY to Florida so you have to store X therms some way. There are only a few options.

1. Batteries. Large expensive and range will be minimal.
2. Gas/Diesel. The most power in the smallest package.
3. Propane. About 1/3 the range (because of volume) but possible.
4. CNG. Also possible BUT again the range is limited. We do have a lot of NG!!
5. Atomic reactor. This actually could run a 18 wheel truck for 5 million miles on one fill up. Expensive and try to get a permit to build this.
6. Clean hydrogen. Ha ha. Well with 250 reactors making hydrogen gas it would be possible but again range is limited because of hydrogen volume.

All are extreme challenges and constraints that Gore and company miss. do they miss because they intend to miss or because they do not have the technical knowledge. I say both!!!

What is bad is that while we listen to the Gore BS we delay the real solutions available.

1. Conversion to ALL diesels would save 30%!!!! Realizing that 30% is not eliminating oil but 30% is major.

2. Conversion of all homes that are heated by diesel to ground source heat pumps. In the north East for instance there are STILL 6 million homes that use 300 gallons a month during the 4 months season. Do the math.
300 X 6 million = 1,800,000,000 gallons of diesel a month for heat and then only in the NE!!! Stupid Stupid.

3. Detroit STILL building F-150/250/350's, Expeditions, suburbans, that get 12 mpg while the rest of the world laughs at us.

Here is some math for ya. My house has 20 or so light bulbs that are 80 watt which equals 1600 watts or 1.6 KW. OK? All were converted to LEDS that draw only 3 watts. 3 watts X 20 bulbs = 60 watts or a savings of 1500 + watts or 1.5 KW. OK OK they are not all on at the same time so how about 1/2 the time??? .75 KW all day every day times how many houses in the USA? Again do the math!

We are presently doing a 6KW solar install so that during the hours of 9 am to about 5 pm we will actually make more power than we use.

If you do some searching you can find that we are presently doing a 12 million watt install on the GM/Opel plant in Spain. 4,000 homes powered!

My father in law a 75 year old PhD mechanical engineer is designing and installing garbage-methane power plants in many landfills. Some are 5 million watts each powering 1/4 of the town homes. While doing this we also remove methane from the world which is a good thing.

Point being there is a lot of REAL things available NOW and Gore wants to basically skip them and the press cheers him on!

Please Think a bit beyond what you hear on the news!

[JoeVacs]

Since when was making money a bad thing anyway ? Why does it bug all these sluggards that somebody makes a profit ? The USA is the GREATEST COUNTRY that has ever been ! Why? Because CAPITOLISM WORKS ! These socialist pigs MUST BE STOPPED !

[muntu]

roof editor,by your way of thinking,dr jonas salk discovered the polio cure so that he could be famous and applauded,the wright bros wanted to be applauded so they said...lets build a flying machine..that should do it.
so i say to you...get off the pot.....ego is not what its about.there are people in this world that are seriously concerned....as are you....let all have their say......seems to me you're doing a gore thing making 12 million watts on a roof in spain.gore said he wanted to open discussion on all fronts...he's saying broadly if we drill for oil we are just putting off the inevitable..do the electric thing now.....of course there will still be oil burned ....airplanes aint gonna fly on a rubber band.and people in the north east and your quebec will still burn oil until they change over to ELECTRICITY[in whatever form it is produced]......or heat pumps or to whatever fits the situation.of course hybrids are a way to go...but you have to go buy one....natural gas conversion kits/autos have to be bought.....nobody is suggesting tomorrow go do it.its gonna take time...let the feds get off their duffs and offer incentives.....the infrastructure centers around oil[carbon] and that has to change and thats all there is to it....anybody think if we liquify coal that it will be any cheaper to gas up at the pumps...dont think so.
so my hope is fission/fusion,wind,sun,hydro generated power..electric cars for city dwellers and some diesel to drag my ponies up to the high country.

[clamgulch]

[quote]Since when was making money a bad thing anyway ? Why does it bug all these sluggards that somebody makes a profit ? The USA is the GREATEST COUNTRY that has ever been ! Why? Because CAPITOLISM WORKS ! These socialist pigs MUST BE STOPPED ![quote]

That's nice, but sometimes reality bites- really hard. For example, my "sluggard" $18/hr mechanic/son with an IQ of 140 is the father of a 4 year old born with microcephaly, a genetic disorder that cannot be cured. Microcephaly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Microcephaly has a good chance of killing the lad by the time he's 7 years old- but maybe not. Perhaps he will spend 70 years or so being called a "pin head" and a "retard," even though he's the sweetest kid I've ever seen in my 50 years. He needs speech therapy because he's very difficult to understand as well as physical therapy so he can walk normally without continually falling down and congnitive therapy to help him learn how to deal with some of the more difficult situations in life like using a toilet. In addition to having numerous holes in his heart that may need to be patched, he will no doubt need special education for many years to become as productive in his OWN life as he can be. The genetic testing and the many expensive "socialist pig" benefits he needs- past, present and future- are far beyond the means of a divorced $18/hr mechanic. The state knows this and consequently pays for much of my grandson's special needs. Does that mean that socialist pigs like my grandson should be taken out an shot then roasted for your dinner?

Let's move on to my wife's condition: She paid into the mandatory "social security" system when she began working at Hewlett Packard Corporation after graduating from University of the South in Tennessee. She's a brilliant woman but after 5 years of work had some sort of weird biological/hormonal changes come down on her that left her unable to complete even the simplest tasks in an 8 hour shift. Confused, irritable beyond imagination, argumentive, and exhausted. It got so bad that she ended up diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, and had to sleep 18+ hours a day and had to plan out even a simple trip to the grocery store a week in advance so she wouldn't waste a single BTU of her energy looking for things she didn't absolutely need. She lost her job, was declared unemployable (believe me, if she worked for me, I'd fire her before lunch the first day), and Social Security decided they lost the insurance bet on her and now they pay her a whopping $1,200/month- but $200 of that goes to medicare. Wow! That means you are paying for TWO worthless sluggard human beings in MY family alone!

Maybe we should burn her at the stake or feed her to your hunting dogs because she's a burden to you. Would that be acceptable to you?

How about my youngest son- In looking at his 6'8" x 275 pound USAF owned framed, you probably wouldn't realize that he was born 25% neurologically disabled, and therefore entitled to benefits paid for by the state and federal government. But after 28 months of physical therapy and years of speech therapy in PUBLIC SCHOOL, he does well enough with his OVER 140 IQ that the CIA began their recruitment blitz when he was in 5th grade- wanted him to go to summer camp to become a "foreign languages and international diplomacy" expert. Instead, he now guards holes in the ground in Montana- holes you wouldn't want people messing with. But there he is, on Uncle Sugar's gravy train, sucking up money and medical benefits in exchange for never actually having to shoot anyone.

Does that mean I'm a "socialist pig" because I don't foot the bills for all of them? Well Ace, that would be 4 sacks of dog food for your dogs, all in one day. Think of how much better off our "greatest country" in the world would be if we could just get some mandatory euthanasia laws passed to immediately put down anyone with an IQ of under 130. No point in having anyone around that's not gifted- they're all just a burden to the rest of us, right?

BTW, your statement "CAPITOLISM WORKS" would mean that you are strictly a supporter of FEDERALISM- because "CAPITOL" in this nation refers to the big white building in Washington DC- Where does that put you in the euthanasia line, Yankee?

What I'm saying is this: "entitlement" come from both sides of the political aisle- the poor think they should get a free ride at the expense of the rich, and the rich think they should get a free ride at the expense of the poor. Well guess what- we're all in this together. So lighten up about "socialist pigs" before "fate" hands YOU a grandson that's born blind and is entitled to an extra exemption on his income tax.

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by muntu

roof editor,by your way of thinking,dr jonas salk discovered the polio cure so that he could be famous and applauded,the wright bros wanted to be applauded so they said...lets build a flying machine..that should do it.
so i say to you...get off the pot.....ego is not what its about.there are people in this world that are seriously concerned....as are you....let all have their say......seems to me you're doing a gore thing making 12 million watts on a roof in spain.gore said he wanted to open discussion on all fronts...he's saying broadly if we drill for oil we are just putting off the inevitable..do the electric thing now.....of course there will still be oil burned ....airplanes aint gonna fly on a rubber band.and people in the north east and your quebec will still burn oil until they change over to ELECTRICITY[in whatever form it is produced]......or heat pumps or to whatever fits the situation.of course hybrids are a way to go...but you have to go buy one....natural gas conversion kits/autos have to be bought.....nobody is suggesting tomorrow go do it.its gonna take time...let the feds get off their duffs and offer incentives.....the infrastructure centers around oil[carbon] and that has to change and thats all there is to it....anybody think if we liquify coal that it will be any cheaper to gas up at the pumps...dont think so.
so my hope is fission/fusion,wind,sun,hydro generated power..electric cars for city dwellers and some diesel to drag my ponies up to the high country.

Gore has discovered nothing! What he says is patently false or at least not proved at all.

Do you know the difference between fusion and fission? I did my thesis on Deuterium-Tritium fusion and last time I checked it still doesn't work.

Incentives? well lets see before Reed and Pelosi got in there was a 30% Investment Tax Credit put in by Bush for alternative energy investment. Now it will expire on 29 Dec 08 and those same 2 names are blocking full speed ahead so it doesn't get renewed or extended. Didn't hear old Al talking about that did ya?

Incentives: How about building solar on federal land also being blocked by that same two dastardly duo. They want a 2 year moratorium on solar to study IF solar is bad? ***????? Didn't hear old Al talking about that one either.

Why not, old Al wants wind and solar power so why isn't he yelling at his buddies Reed and Pelosi telling them to stop quibbling and get it passed.

Bio-diesel made from solar-powered-algae can run a car/truck/train and even a plane!

Why not do a little research and write your congressman or senator and tell them to MOVE!

[roofeditor]

[quote=clamgulch;1600164][quote]Since when was making money a bad thing anyway ? Why does it bug all these sluggards that somebody makes a profit ? The USA is the GREATEST COUNTRY that has ever been ! Why? Because CAPITOLISM WORKS ! These socialist pigs MUST BE STOPPED !

That's nice, but sometimes reality bites- really hard. For example, my "sluggard" $18/hr mechanic/son with an IQ of 140 is the father of a 4 year old born with microcephaly, a genetic disorder that cannot be cured. Microcephaly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Microcephaly has a good chance of killing the lad by the time he's 7 years old- but maybe not. Perhaps he will spend 70 years or so being called a "pin head" and a "retard," even though he's the sweetest kid I've ever seen in my 50 years. He needs speech therapy because he's very difficult to understand as well as physical therapy so he can walk normally without continually falling down and congnitive therapy to help him learn how to deal with some of the more difficult situations in life like using a toilet. In addition to having numerous holes in his heart that may need to be patched, he will no doubt need special education for many years to become as productive in his OWN life as he can be. The genetic testing and the many expensive "socialist pig" benefits he needs- past, present and future- are far beyond the means of a divorced $18/hr mechanic. The state knows this and consequently pays for much of my grandson's special needs. Does that mean that socialist pigs like my grandson should be taken out an shot then roasted for your dinner?

Let's move on to my wife's condition: She paid into the mandatory "social security" system when she began working at Hewlett Packard Corporation after graduating from University of the South in Tennessee. She's a brilliant woman but after 5 years of work had some sort of weird biological/hormonal changes come down on her that left her unable to complete even the simplest tasks in an 8 hour shift. Confused, irritable beyond imagination, argumentive, and exhausted. It got so bad that she ended up diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, and had to sleep 18+ hours a day and had to plan out even a simple trip to the grocery store a week in advance so she wouldn't waste a single BTU of her energy looking for things she didn't absolutely need. She lost her job, was declared unemployable (believe me, if she worked for me, I'd fire her before lunch the first day), and Social Security decided they lost the insurance bet on her and now they pay her a whopping $1,200/month- but $200 of that goes to medicare. Wow! That means you are paying for TWO worthless sluggard human beings in MY family alone!

Maybe we should burn her at the stake or feed her to your hunting dogs because she's a burden to you. Would that be acceptable to you?

How about my youngest son- In looking at his 6'8" x 275 pound USAF owned framed, you probably wouldn't realize that he was born 25% neurologically disabled, and therefore entitled to benefits paid for by the state and federal government. But after 28 months of physical therapy and years of speech therapy in PUBLIC SCHOOL, he does well enough with his OVER 140 IQ that the CIA began their recruitment blitz when he was in 5th grade- wanted him to go to summer camp to become a "foreign languages and international diplomacy" expert. Instead, he now guards holes in the ground in Montana- holes you wouldn't want people messing with. But there he is, on Uncle Sugar's gravy train, sucking up money and medical benefits in exchange for never actually having to shoot anyone.

Does that mean I'm a "socialist pig" because I don't foot the bills for all of them? Well Ace, that would be 4 sacks of dog food for your dogs, all in one day. Think of how much better off our "greatest country" in the world would be if we could just get some mandatory euthanasia laws passed to immediately put down anyone with an IQ of under 130. No point in having anyone around that's not gifted- they're all just a burden to the rest of us, right?

BTW, your statement "CAPITOLISM WORKS" would mean that you are strictly a supporter of FEDERALISM- because "CAPITOL" in this nation refers to the big white building in Washington DC- Where does that put you in the euthanasia line, Yankee?

What I'm saying is this: "entitlement" come from both sides of the political aisle- the poor think they should get a free ride at the expense of the rich, and the rich think they should get a free ride at the expense of the poor. Well guess what- we're all in this together. So lighten up about "socialist pigs" before "fate" hands YOU a grandson that's born blind and is entitled to an extra exemption on his income tax.

Got to tell ya, you're out there a bit!.....just saying!

[clamgulch]

What do you want, proof? Would you like to see my lifetime FREE access pass to the national park system for my disability? Yes, I have one, and no, I didn't make any of that up. He presented thoughtless, shallow, party-line enthusiasm; I presented facts. His comments deserved to be put into perspective. Without a balance, there are only unrestrained extremes. So I presented the extreme opposite of what he did.

[AK_Gandy]

We're the most powerful nation this planet has ever seen and there's still those that don't think we have an obligation to take care of our own.

Funny how those people who don't have a need are adamantly opposed.

Roofie........how fast would your attitude change should you or yours end up in the situation that Clam described?

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by AK_Gandy

We're the most powerful nation this planet has ever seen and there's still those that don't think we have an obligation to take care of our own.

Funny how those people who don't have a need are adamantly opposed.

Roofie........how fast would your attitude change should you or yours end up in the situation that Clam described?

Rick, I'm talking about refining shale oil and now the thread switches to me taking care of clams family? Uh...OK I guess.

For the record I'm not against Clams family situation or what ever medical program they are on.

Now back to refining shale oil and other energy issues if you will.

BTW: getting rid of 1/2 the 18 wheelers on the road and replacing them with CSX and UNP and NSC trains would be a plus. Also liking BNI.

UNP - Union Pacific Corporation - Google Finance

[roofeditor]

Originally Posted by clamgulch

What do you want, proof? Would you like to see my lifetime FREE access pass to the national park system for my disability? Yes, I have one, and no, I didn't make any of that up. He presented thoughtless, shallow, party-line enthusiasm; I presented facts. His comments deserved to be put into perspective. Without a balance, there are only unrestrained extremes. So I presented the extreme opposite of what he did.

Shale oil in this hidden some place? Or am I dense and missing the secret code?