I need a 6.0 X with pilot injection in the Denver area - Diesel Forum

AXTINC · 01-14-2005, 03:31 PM

I need some help here. Does anyone in the Denver area have a 6.0 X with pilot injection? It would be a 03 or early 04. If you have ever had it flashed it is gone. Please let me know as I would like to measure the amount of idle noise compared to mine now that it has been flashed and pilot injection has been removed. Ford is telling me that it is no more than 3 db difference which I do not believe. Thanks

989171 · 01-14-2005, 05:10 PM

Once again, 04s never had pilot injection. An 03 engine with pilot injection is quieter than an early 04 with ICP "quiet idle". When Ford removed the "QI" from 04s the sound level increased to a level as if you just touched the throttle on a non flashed 04 (taking it out of "QI"). This I have measured with a calibrated Db meter. Ford is wrong, its not 3Db its 2.7 Db. I was surprised, I thought it would be a greater increase.

As a side note. I thought (and many others do to) that Dmaxs are quieter than 6.0s. With my 6.0 and my friends Dmax parked side by side with hood open, standing in front of his you can clearly hear the 6.0 over the Dmax. Standing in front of the 6.0 we could barely make out the sound of the Dmax. Using a Db meter they were both within 1 Db of each other at all places we measured (1 at a time, not both running).

What I'm saying is sound is subjective. I could listen to music at 80 Db all day long, but I couldn't handle a second of 50 Db fingernail on a chalkboard. So the Dmax is more pleasing to the ear than the 6.0, but no quieter than the 6.0, we just perceive it that way.

Anyway, back to the point. I think Ford is very close in their claim of a 3Db increase.

FamilyRide · 01-14-2005, 06:43 PM

I won't say anything about the PI this time [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] besides psdwanabee covered well it again, but I would agree that the dealer is way off if we're talking about dead idle sound difference.

On a side note, I cranked mine up today for the first time a week or so and WOW, it sounded like a big block idling!!! It took about 2 blocks of driving before the exhaust note came back to normal (which still has a rumble, but nothing like that). I'm assuming it had to do with temp and turbo being closed off, but damn, it sounded good! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

AXTINC · 01-14-2005, 07:23 PM

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Once again, 04s never had pilot injection. An 03 engine with pilot injection is quieter than an . When Ford removed the "QI" from 04s the sound level increased to a level as if you just touched the throttle on a non flashed 04 (taking it out of "QI"). This I have measured with a calibrated Db meter. Ford is wrong, its not 3Db its 2.7 Db. I was surprised, I thought it would be a greater increase.

What I'm saying is sound is subjective.

Anyway, back to the point. I think Ford is very close in their claim of a 3Db increase.

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I had a 3 way conference call today with the service manager, regional Ford diesel specialist and the regional customer service rep and they all stated that my 04 did have Pilot Injection, but lets just let it go for now. What ever my 04 had “(early 04 with ICP "quiet idle")” it was as quiet as my 03 and significantly quieter when I bought it than now with the new flash.

Let’s discuss sound as quantified by the human ear. 3 db in a clinical setting is just at the threshold of detection. Now my argument is that the difference I have noticed is considerably more than just the threshold of detection.

With that said, to the ear, each 10 dB increase seems twice as loud. In other words 10 db represent a 100% increase in the perceived sound level. While 3db by itself does not sound like a big number it is relative to a 30% increase. My argument is that per my ears the noise level change is more in the 50% neighborhood because it is a lot more than just at the threshold of my hearing. My wife and neighbors have commented on the increased noise level as well.

I bought a vehicle that was at least 50% quieter at idle then it is now. While this may not be important to many it is to me for a long list or reasons, not to mention that I have a fundamental problem with having something I paid for arbitrarily taken away. Ford should spend the money to make it work the way I bought it and as other major manufactures have. The new Dodge sets the standard, not only is it exceptionally quiet at idle it sounds great under load with a near perfect exhaust note.

989171 · 01-14-2005, 07:50 PM

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I bought a vehicle that was at least 50% quieter at idle then it is now.

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Like I said your ears may be telling you that, but my db meter and Ford say otherwise.

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The new Dodge sets the standard, not only is it exceptionally quiet at idle it sounds great under load with a near perfect exhaust note.

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Another matter of personal preference. I don't care for the way new dodges sound. I think what you were robbed of (and what I still have) is the perfect combination. Quiet at idle but no mistaking its a diesel at anything above idle. As Ive said before, I wish you good luck in your pursuit, you were definitely robbed. But its an uphill battle that Ive never seen won.

FamilyRide · 01-14-2005, 09:16 PM

I'm not sure you'll get too many arguements from anyone that has had a quiet idle strategy truck and then had it flashed, that the "dead idle" sound is much higher after the flash, more than detectable by the ear. If one can't tell a difference, they are deaf.

What hasn't been said is that the quiet idle is just that, dead idle. Something that I know I don't do a lot, unless you include stopping at a traffic light for a minute or 2. But it's not like it's getting louder than it was driving, it just doesn't drop to the level of silent that it did at dead, flat idle.

From all the responses and your replies, it's obvious this is a very touchy subject and very important to you and for that, good luck with Ford and I hope they can help you. However, it's appearent you are frustrated, and a lot of your posts (and you've started a few threads and several posts in regards to this) are coming across defensive. We (the forum population) are not the enemy and many even empathize with you. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I think it was Innovation that offered to try to help. Let s know how that goes or how things go with Ford.

dtmackey · 01-15-2005, 07:47 AM

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Ford is telling me that it is no more than 3 db difference which I do not believe. Thanks

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The measure of sound (loudness) is dB which is measured logarithmically. 3 dB may not sound like much, but a 3 dB increase is very noticablable. For every 10dB increase, you have effectively doubled the sound level (twice as loud). I have heard the pilot and non-pilot and I would agree that it's in the 3dB or less range, but I have not backed this up with a meter as another poster has.

Just my $0.02.

David M

4play · 01-16-2005, 02:23 AM

the sound is not that big of a deal to me it was the 4 mpg that i lost!!! had the X in for a service engine light(less then 3000 miles) they called me and said that they found no problem. but they went ahead and did a flash update because it needed one. i did not want or ask for it and they said that they can not go backwards. know i have a big problem 14 mpg not 18.5-19 mpg like before and it was not even broke in it was noticed right a way. been a battle and getting no where.

AXTINC · 01-16-2005, 09:47 AM

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the sound is not that big of a deal to me it was the 4 mpg that i lost!!!

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My mileage was not affected by the flash. I still get around 15 just about the same as the last 5 PSDs I have owned.

Snowman269 · 01-17-2005, 01:01 AM

Hmm.... I thought that every 3 db's sound doubles. So 2.7 decibles is almost twice as loud as before. This 10 decible sound doubling is new to me.

AXTINC · 01-17-2005, 08:32 AM

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Hmm.... I thought that every 3 db's sound doubles. So 2.7 decibles is almost twice as loud as before. This 10 decible sound doubling is new to me.

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Please provide a reference, as everything thing I have found says to the human ear 10 db is double. It does support everyone’s opinion that the change is very noticeable. Whether 3db is 30% or 100% louder at idle it is not the way I bought it and not even Ford disputes that, they just think I should live with it. The Ford Cobra guys stuck together and Ford upgraded their engines to the stated HP at considerable expense, even though Ford claimed the owner could not tell the difference. Here the difference is very noticeable to everyone; they just want to bluff their way out of responsibility and it is working so far.

turbodave · 01-17-2005, 10:08 AM

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Hmm.... I thought that every 3 db's sound doubles. So 2.7 decibles is almost twice as loud as before. This 10 decible sound doubling is new to me.

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Well, sort of. You're technically right.

While 3db up or down does in fact double or half the power, that doesn't necessarilly mean the ear hears twice or half as loud.
It's purely a measurement of power, not what the ear hears.

FamilyRide · 01-17-2005, 10:59 AM

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The Ford Cobra guys stuck together and Ford upgraded their engines to the stated HP at considerable expense, even though Ford claimed the owner could not tell the difference. Here the difference is very noticeable to everyone; they just want to bluff their way out of responsibility and it is working so far.

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You can't compare apples to toasters. HP rating is documented, advertised and must be within an acceptable deviation. They were outside of what was documented, advertised and acceptable deviation.

I've never heard or or seen anything of the like in regards to sound level. I'm sure the EPA has requirments of manufactures, but for that they answer to the EPA and you cna bet they are withint EPA requirments.

AXTINC · 01-17-2005, 11:39 AM

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Hmm.... I thought that every 3 db's sound doubles. So 2.7 decibles is almost twice as loud as before. This 10 decible sound doubling is new to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, sort of. You're technically right.

While 3db up or down does in fact double or half the power, that doesn't necessarilly mean the ear hears twice or half as loud.
It's purely a measurement of power, not what the ear hears.

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Because the human ear does not hear sound energy linearly (on a one-to-one basis), humans do not perceive changes in sound level as equally loud. Research indicates the following general relationships between sound level and human perception:

A 3 dB increase is a doubling of acoustic energy and is the threshold of perceptibility. The average person will not be able to distinguish a 3 dB difference in sound level in a laboratory condition.
A 10 dB increase is a tenfold increase in acoustic energy but is perceived as a doubling in loudness to the average person. The average person will judge a 10 dB change in sound level to be twice or half as loud.
The human ear does not perceive sound levels from every frequency as equally loud. As part of the hearing process, the human ear will attenuate low and high-frequency sounds.

AXTINC · 01-17-2005, 12:15 PM

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The Ford Cobra guys stuck together and Ford upgraded their engines to the stated HP at considerable expense, even though Ford claimed the owner could not tell the difference. Here the difference is very noticeable to everyone; they just want to bluff their way out of responsibility and it is working so far.

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You can't compare apples to toasters. HP rating is documented, advertised and must be within an acceptable deviation. They were outside of what was documented, advertised and acceptable deviation.

I've never heard or or seen anything of the like in regards to sound level. I'm sure the EPA has requirments of manufactures, but for that they answer to the EPA and you cna bet they are withint EPA requirments.

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Without sounding defensive which I have been accused of let me reiterate that my issue is as follows (excerpt from my follow up letter to the service manager regarding our conference call on Friday with Ford area managers) and is stronger from a legal standpoint then the issue with the Ford Cobra.

“That is; I purchased not one but two different model year vehicles in a row from the Ford Motor Company that off the sales lot had a very quiet idle feature/function (a consumer “marketing” inducement) and both were promptly removed at the first service opportunity due to inherent problems with the engines quiet idle function that Ford was apparently aware of prior to the sale. Regardless of your personal defenses of the Ford Motor Company this is a clear misrepresentation of a feature/function that induced me to purchase the product “vehicle(s)” which has been deliberately removed by the Ford Motor Company resulting in my failure to obtain the full benefit of the bargain. Please let me point out that Ford’s engineering department’s position that the 3db (30%) noise increase is acceptable to Ford has nothing to do with the undisputed facts that I bought the vehicle(s) with an enhanced quiet idle feature (a performance standard) and that it was deliberately removed by Ford without consideration.”