It makes me wonder what else changed with the '05's.
I'm convinced it's the Ex, not the trailer. I don't know his trailer, but for boats in this weight range, you don't just unbolt a U-bolt and slide an axle. They are about as stable and balanced as you can get as long as you don't do something silly like drop or riase the tongue 6" or more.
All are good suggestions but don't address this specific issue. Assuming the trtailer is just as level as it was with the lifted Ex., there should be no difference in towing. It's the Ex.
__________________ 2004 EB Excursion, 4x4, 6.0, everything but step tubes and 2nd row chairs, Magnaflow Exhaust, Isspro Gauges in an under cubby pod, Fumoto sitting on V Codes and Revo 285's.
"Treat me good, I'll treat you better; treat me bad, I'll treat you worse." - Sonny Barger
The tongue weights I quoted are recommended by various boat trailer manufacturers. Some of the boat trailer manufacturers will VOID THE WARRANTY if tongue weights exceed 7% or if WD equipment is used.
- Load Rite states in their operation manuals that tongue weights should be roughly 5% for trailers over 2000# GTW and overall should be 5%-7%.
- E-Z Loader states on their website that tongue weight should be 5%-7%
of GTW
- ShoreLandR states on their website 5-7% TW, recommends 5% for tandem axle trailers and 6% for single axle trailers
- BoatUS recommends 5-10%
- Sea Ray (boat manufacturer) states on their web site that "boat trailers commonly have tongue weights of 5-8%.
Obviously Furd took the safe way out and used the 10% rule of thumb when they applied the tongue weight ratings to our Excursion hitches. This is understandable: for anything else other than a boat trailer the tongue weight should indeed be at least 10% of GTW.
With the mushy springs and value-engineered-to-the-max frame design I understand why they recommend no more than 500# tongue weight, and my friend's experience proved it. But if that hitch is rated to PULL 11000# in WD mode it should be able to PULL 11000# in WC mode as well as long as the TW does not exceed 500#. (I guess that doesn't satisfy the lawyers, though.....) Unfortunately, the only other option is one of those Reunel bumpers........
How many thousands of Excursions are used to tow boats larger than 5000#?
How many of them use WD hitches to do it?
Bravo overcurrent. Good info. It's out there, but most of us are too lazy to go get it, but again, I didn't think it was necesary to get, but I'm glad you fif! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (ya, I'm lazy)
To answer that last question, a lot! Largest I've seen behind an Excursion was behind a lifted Excursion and it was a 42 Lightning (Fountain). Probably in the 12-13k range. The Ex. was squatted as you'd imagine. 10K and more is not uncommon (a member here does/did as well) and not one uses WD. It goes against the core rules, but it's there.
I went through this when I first bought my boat. I had an Expedition and the guy at a local "trailer" shop where I wwnt to buy "stuff" to be able to tow, told me not to worry about it. He said the receiver would probably support 30k pounds which is way more than the rest of the truck could go. He also talkled about boat trialers, balance etc. and said to just make sure the tongue weight is what it should be which would be well under the OEM receivers spec. I ended up replacing it with a Putnam that was rated for 800/8000# weight carrying and was surprised to see the only difference in construction was their patented shiny black finish and a sticker that showed 800# tongue weight vs. 500#.
__________________ 2004 EB Excursion, 4x4, 6.0, everything but step tubes and 2nd row chairs, Magnaflow Exhaust, Isspro Gauges in an under cubby pod, Fumoto sitting on V Codes and Revo 285's.
"Treat me good, I'll treat you better; treat me bad, I'll treat you worse." - Sonny Barger
(You do have 4WD, right?) I appreciate your frustration. It is outrageous how bad these vehicles can be, but it is unlikely that there is anything really unusual about what is wrong about yours. Please post the part number of the Bilsteins you bought. I hope you did not get the ones that have too much compression damping.
Other than that, in this order, take out your springs, put in your rear airbags, install new springs (good choices, BTW), then do the radius rods. Check for loose mounts, slop in bushings while doing this, but your truck is so new that this is unlikely.
I'm not sure what front bump stops 2005 V-10s come with. (Compare with 2003 and later 4WD PSD Ex. Use those if yours are longer.) You will gain front ride height with the Vs. You just need to stay off the stops most of the time.
Adjust all play out of steering box. Check for binding ball joints. (The Helwig FRONT bar seems to help more than most people here seem to appreciate. 30mm Ford rear bar should be fine.) Align front with 1/8" toe, 1/4 degree negative camber, 6 degrees positive caster (requires both offset bushings and caster wedges.)
This is what it takes to make these liveable, but still no match for a dead stock 4WD 3/4 ton Suburban in terms of directional stability.
If your truck is really unstable after all of this, something unusual is out of wack.
Most people don't seem to get this, but tire pressures really aren't something you can adjust by choice. For a given vehicle, load, tire conditions, etc., tires need certain pressures. This is determined by the temperature profile across the tread. It is measured with a pyrometer and should be even across the face of the tread. (See my post under Pirelli Scorpion Tires for more details.) If you run pressures too high, the tires wear out faster in the center and ride harsher than they should. Too, low, you get excessive shoulder wear and instability.
I doubt, though, that any of the severe problems you are having are caused by your tires, though some brands do seem to mask the problems a little.
BTW, my buddy Willy Hough did the prototype FF Daytona Coupe BY EYE from pictures, in his basement in Norwell, Mass. (He built the first few production bodies as well.) It was a PERFECT replica, but the FF guys kept wanting bigger and bigger wheels, flares, etc. It kind of got away, but it's still a great car.
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More wood on the fire [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
different STEALer told me $19K trade-in for an 05 XLT with 4700 miles [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] I have to admit, the 4 letter tirade they got in response was pretty funny....
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Wow! I thought the 19K I was offered by my dealer for my 02 with 110K was bad, they said sell it privatley, I did and got 26K but it was VERY NICE and the guy wanted it as equiped and paid for it.
Bottom line is you are heading in the right dirrection see my mod list on my 02 I miss it as it handled and towed like it was on rails. Never had the alignment even checked they kept asking at the tire dealer but the tires were very even and I told them not to even think about Adjusting a darn thing, just tires please! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
You will get there it is a shame to pay so much and then have to fix it, dealer said he would put springs on the front for me at a very good net cost just have not done it yet.
Need to measure it left to right and see if I am going to put a V on the left and A U on the right or just 2 U codes.
Bruce
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2005 X PSD Limited Mineral Grey, 4X4 Has Second row bench then Every other factory option available. Under Construction
4x2 Lift Gate Lifts,
Tekonsha Prodigy
Ford 30MM Rear Bar
BridgeStone 285/75-16AT(D range) Revos, Now have a winter and summer set each with a set of wheels!
V Code LF, U Code RF Modified Fs in the rear
Catch All Linners
750 W Inverter
Magnaflow XL System W/ 3.5 DP OE Cat spliced in at 4" inlet and 3-3/4" outlet.
ART Rotors, Performance Friction Pads, Front & Rear
Rancho RSXs on Front and 9000s set at 2 on rear
06 Chrome Package Grill,bumpers and hooks. After an encounter with a Honda, (She got the ticket) 2005 Ex and Specs and Pictures of 2002 X
1. I think most people who use "V" code front springs have 7.3s. I think the V-10 motor is much lighter. I have "U" codes on the front of my 7.3 with 2003+ bump stops. This yields about 2" of bump travel before the stops and I almost never hit the stops, even towing 8000 lbs with a WDH. You may want to reconsider the "V"s. They may be stiffer and raise the front ride height more than you need/want.
2. Get the front caster shims now and be sure to use new "U" bolts when installing the springs. That way, you put the front together once, make sure it is right and your alignment shop bill will be much lower. (They will "fine tune" the alignment with offset bushings.)
These are the only "double adjustable" bushings available. With a little luck, they generally can even be adjusted after being installed with the truck on the rack. It is usually the only way to avoid serious compromises with your alignment settings that are inevitable with the typical "single adjustable" bushings and drastically reduces how long it takes to get it right and therefore how expensive your alignment will be.
Obviously, you have to find a really competent, patient alignment guy (I know, that's an oxymoron) who loves these trucks, but there are a few out there.
The way to do it, when you think you may have found one, is go in with the Stempfs in hand. Show him them (leave unless he thinks they are cool. Very unlikely he will have ever have seen them before), explain you already installed the caster shims when you put the new springs in. Show him my alignment specs from the other post. If he thinks 1/8" of total toe-in is too much, explain you will live with a little excess tire wear (not sure there really is any, BTW). (All alignment specs except toe are always in degrees, but many machines now do toe in degrees as well. I forget what the equivalent to an 1/8" is in degrees, but it is quite a bit more than the factory "allowable" maximum toe-in. If the guy won't go outside factory specs, walk away.)
Alignment time is when to do the "ball joint binding test".
He must offer "before" and "after" full printouts. You have to emphasize that you are not price sensitive and that you want him to keep at it until everything is "spot on".
You have to stay there throughout and be able to participate in the decision making. This shouldn't happen, but if he insists he can't give you both 1/4 neg camber and equal caster side to side, first try to find what's bent or wong. If you have to compromise, get the camber right on both sides and "live" with caster being off by up a degree or so side to side. That isn't enough to make it pull. BTW, make sure the tires are good, the ones you plan to use and inflated to the same the pressures you will be using.
I did not mention KPI. That's because the exact numbers don't matter. They just need to be close to the same, side to side. When you get the camber, caster and toe according to my specs, the Stempfs should allow you to get the KPI virtually equal. If you can't, the upright is probably bent.
Expect to pay at least $400 for all this. Be sure to swap your tires front to rear at least every 6000 miles (3000 is better).
Good info, thanks guys! Doc, yes my 05 is 4x4. I don't have the part number handy for the Bilsteins but I still have the boxes home, I'll get it tonight. For the Stempf 532, it shows for Ford 4x4 up to 2001, does anyone know for sure it will work on the Excursion? If so, I'll order a pair and install them while I have the front apart.
I think I'm going to stay with the V's, order going in tomorrow. I was leaning towards the W's because I am also going to order a plow in a few weeks, but I think the V's should be able to handle it. It's only for my driveway and a couple of friends, no commercial stuff, so it won't be on the truck very long. The stuff I've read looks like the front should go up about 1.7" with the V's.
I have an alignment shop I trust so that shouldn't be an issue. The stealer I bought the truck from said everything is 'in spec'. Just because the spec sucks doesn't mean it's right, but they are clueless.
BTW, your buddy Bill Hough is a pretty cool guy! I spent a few hours with him at the show at FFR last year, I wish they had done the production body like the one on his car... much nicer than the one I have. Hopefully mine will get painted over the winter.
__________________
06 F250 Crew Cab LB V-10 4x4
99-122 Bright Atlantic Blue S-281 S/C Convertible
Factory Five Daytona Coupe #139
Yes, no change on the bushings from 2001-2005. I didn't realize that you plan to attach a plow. Just try to make sure that a 1.7" rise is what you will get with the much lighter V-10.
Definitely DON'T install the Stempfs now. Get everything else done (including Landyots) and go to the alignment shop last. Get a baseline. The Stempfs then need to be adjusted according to the instructions relative to the alignment specs you are starting with AND THEN INSTALLED. Ideally, everything works the first time. If it is off a bit, sometimes you can adjust them a little without taking them out. Otherwise, you will have to take them out and redo like other types. (When you actually see them and read the directions, you will understand why you shouldn't just put them in and drive to the alignment shop.)
(Willy and I met when we were both 10 years old in a local RC model flying club. We lost touch and then ended up both working for Autodynamics.)
Making progress anyway... took the trailer (with the new hitch) and the toy car to a show yesterday, 130 miles round trip most of it highway. Checked the tongue weight before I left (950), guessing the trailer weight is around 7K. Trailer tires on 60, rear tires on X at 70 seemed to help. Still getting a lot of walk in the front end of the X, but at least I seemed to have eliminated the issues with the trailer itself, it was tracking much better than the X was. No tractor-trailers on the road so I can't tell if that problem is resolved or not.
Rear of the X seemed better but still wishy-washy with the Bilsteins, air bags (on 20 psi) and the 30mm bar. I'm starting to really believe the problem isn't just the rear, but the front suspension as well.
New wheels should be here today, new tires are at the dealer, waiting for the new B and V springs to show up. Hopefully picking everything up wednesday, should have an amusing weekend coming up. Radius Rods are also coming soon. And now back to your regularly scheduled programming [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
06 F250 Crew Cab LB V-10 4x4
99-122 Bright Atlantic Blue S-281 S/C Convertible
Factory Five Daytona Coupe #139
That's a lot of tongue weight! Are you using WD bars on that one?
Also, you say 70psi in the rear tires? Isn't 80psi max? With that much weight on them, they need to be at max. Although, I'd also agree, the front end and front tires (and psi) play a big part as well.
__________________ 2004 EB Excursion, 4x4, 6.0, everything but step tubes and 2nd row chairs, Magnaflow Exhaust, Isspro Gauges in an under cubby pod, Fumoto sitting on V Codes and Revo 285's.
"Treat me good, I'll treat you better; treat me bad, I'll treat you worse." - Sonny Barger
Everything I've read says for a TT trailer, 10-15% tongue weight. With the trailer weighing around 7K, 15% is over 1000. I figured I was close enough. I'm using an Equal-i-zer hitch which is WD and sway control all-in-one. The hitch says it's good to 1200 pounds tongue weight. I should also say I checked the tongue weight before I hooked up the WD bars....
Last time I took the trailer out, I had the rears at 80 and it was bouncing all over the place. Someone here or one of the other boards recommended trying 70 instead, I think it drove better than when I tried them at 80.
Ted
__________________
06 F250 Crew Cab LB V-10 4x4
99-122 Bright Atlantic Blue S-281 S/C Convertible
Factory Five Daytona Coupe #139
Im no expert but just throwing out an idea, could the problem be your new truck sitting at a different height have the trailer leaning a little more forward or back and changing the weight throwing the whole works out of order. Im thinking maybe the trailer is sitting at a lsightly different angle allowing more or less weight to sit on the ball then it did on your other trucks? Just an idea.
Linear Mode
