The tail is wagging the dog!!! - Diesel Forum

BayAreaBoater · 08-28-2005, 04:34 PM

I just towed my smaller/lighter of two boats yesterday with my new '05 EX and got a big surprise...

I almost lost control more than a few times due to the boat swinging me from side to side. I actually thought that I was going to jack-knife. At any speed above 40 MPH or so, the boat would sway back and forth and cause the EX to move back and forth as well. I have never experienced this before and I have been towing things for 25+ years.

This is my third EX and neither of my previous two has done this. My most recent one had the Pro-Comp 4" lift with the 305 tires. Never a problem with either boat.

Now this...What gives??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

The only thing difference (other than the lift) is that I had to replace my receiver hitch (the slide-in portion). Obviously, my previous one had a 2" drop to allow for the lifted EX. I tried to use that one on the new EX, but the trailer tongue sat too low and would actually drag going in and out of the driveway. I bought a new one, with no drop. Now the base of the ball is the same height as the bumper and the trailer sits level.

This boat weighs about 4,500lbs and my other one about 7,500 lbs. Both have tandem axle trailers with brakes and with 2-5/16th inch balls.

I am planning on towing the heavier one up to the lake next weekend but now I am a little (more like A LOT) concerned.

ANY help would be much appreciated!

BayAreaBoater · 08-28-2005, 04:37 PM

Sorry, forgot to add this info...

Previous EX-2001 w/7.3 4WD, only mod was the lift/tires.
New one-2005 w/6.0 4WD, no mods.

Thanks again!

Hoowasat · 08-28-2005, 07:56 PM

Well, Ford did change the rear leaf springs and traction bars on the 4WD X for the '04 & '05 model years, but that shouldn't be causing the difference in trailer sway you're experiencing.

turbodave · 08-28-2005, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just towed my smaller/lighter of two boats yesterday with my new '05 EX and got a big surprise...

I almost lost control more than a few times due to the boat swinging me from side to side. I actually thought that I was going to jack-knife. At any speed above 40 MPH or so, the boat would sway back and forth and cause the EX to move back and forth as well. I have never experienced this before and I have been towing things for 25+ years.

This is my third EX and neither of my previous two has done this. My most recent one had the Pro-Comp 4" lift with the 305 tires. Never a problem with either boat.

Now this...What gives??? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

The only thing difference (other than the lift) is that I had to replace my receiver hitch (the slide-in portion). Obviously, my previous one had a 2" drop to allow for the lifted EX. I tried to use that one on the new EX, but the trailer tongue sat too low and would actually drag going in and out of the driveway. I bought a new one, with no drop. Now the base of the ball is the same height as the bumper and the trailer sits level.

This boat weighs about 4,500lbs and my other one about 7,500 lbs. Both have tandem axle trailers with brakes and with 2-5/16th inch balls.

I am planning on towing the heavier one up to the lake next weekend but now I am a little (more like A LOT) concerned.

ANY help would be much appreciated!

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your tongue weight? Could be too light for a "normal" tow. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Bruce1954 · 08-28-2005, 09:54 PM

I have done a fair amount of towing without a WD hitch and have not had the problem you describe UNLESS I was to light on the hitch weight.

Are you sure you are loaded the same? I agree with your experience you know what you are doing but are you missing something simple (we all have those days) or there is something wrong.

I am assuming you have the 24MM rear bar and that is more than you may have had on the last two Xs.

Check the basics

Hitch weight

tire pressure Truck and trailer

Any chance of a shifting load in trailer/Boat, Just thinking water in the bilge going to the back and then shifting could be a real night mare. Thinking about it could be why my dad always "pulled the plug" first thing as the ski boat came out of the water.

Take a good look at your rig, Unless there is something broken or missing on the X I can not see the small changes Ford had made having the kind of impact you are seeing.

4500# and everything right you should be looking back to see if it still connected, you should not know it is back there. 7500# then you can start to tell you are towing something. But you already know this [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

Just trying to help

Bruce

DR.billZ · 08-28-2005, 10:04 PM

How much air in the rear tires?

BayAreaBoater · 08-29-2005, 12:10 AM

Great ideas, guys.(please, keep 'em coming...)

Though I haven't checked the tongue weight since I bought the boat three years ago, nothing has changed to the load of the boat on the trailer. The boat has side guides and a bolted down bow-stand that doesn't adjust. And my transom tie-downs didn't need to be adjusted at all since I last towed it with my other EX.

Out of force of habit, I too, always drain the bilge while I am still at the ramp after a days use, so that should eliminate any change in weight (water sloshing around in the bilge). Fuel tank level was pretty much the same...I never fill it all the way up (for obvious reasons) and I never let it get below 1/4th tank, so that should be considered pretty normal.

I did just have the boat serviced this week, but I towed it there with my motorhome (to have it serviced as well), so I didn't use my EX, but I did not notice the problem of swaying with the motorhome (it's a 31' Winnebago on an E-450 chassis, weighing 14,500 lbs). While being serviced, I did notice that the dealer checked the tire pressure on the trailer and all four tires were at 40 psi. They added air to make them 50 psi. The tires have their max rating at 50 psi, cold. Could that be the problem???

Really, the only two changes since my last towing with the '01 EX basically have been the tire pressure on the trailer and the hitch ball height. The base of the ball now is about 1" below the "step" on the rear bumper, vs. about 4" with the other ball mount on the lifted EX. Overall angle of the trailer seems to be the same. As mentioned above, I did notice that the reat end of the EX dropped down more than usual when I connected the trailer. I just figured that the lifted EX had more "stout".

Bruce- You're right about hardly knowing that my Scout is behind me, (except for this new situation) and when I tow the Sea Ray, I am just starting to notice that it is back there (with the old EX).

I think that I am going to take a test spin with the Sea Ray behind the new EX BEFORE our trip next weekend. There will be some mountain driving and I don't want anything to happen...

I guess that I should lower the psi back down to 40 to either eliminate or confirm that as the problem. I will also check the pressure in the tires on the EX. You'd figure that a new truck with 800 miles on it should be within specs...But I know what happens when you assume things.

Thanks again!

tfalk · 08-29-2005, 11:18 AM

Sorry for the long reply.....

Since I've been experiencing similar towing issues with my 05, I've been doing a lot of research lately. Can you tell me what the rear spring code is for your EX? The spring code on my 05 is CCGG, and I haven't found the GG codes listed anywhere yet, or I must have missed them somewhere. Also, what tires are on your EX? I'm also wondering if the BFG Rugged Trails are the problem?

From what I've been reading, it seems like the pre-04/05 Excursions are great tow vehicles. I'm starting to think there is a serious problem with the 05's, or at least some of them, but I haven't found the combination yet.

I towed my 28 foot car trailer with a 99 F-250 crew cab long bed, leveling kit and 33x12.50x16.5's and never had an issue. The first tow with the EX and I had the same reaction as you, almost rolled the entire combination. I checked the weights, trailer w/car is around 8000 pounds, tongue weight was 1100. Tires were set per the door sticker, 45 front and 55 rear, I had checked them a few days prior. I did notice afterward my trailer tires were at 62 instead of 60. So far I've changed the hitch from a Reese load distributing w/o the sway control to the Equalizer hitch/sway control. I also added air bags to the rear of the Ex. I'm still not comfortable with it towing - the rear is still too uncertain. I just installed a set of Bilsteins and it seems better, but it's still not comfortable.

I also tried borrowing the tires from a friends truck - it was better with the Pirelli Scorpions but it was still not what I would call confindence inspiring. We took the trailer out with his 04 F250 crew cab long bed 2wd just to make sure it wasn't a problem with the trailer and it tows fine, so we know the issue is with the EX.

Radius arms are in the process of being ordered, but I'm not convinced that they will be the cure-all needed. I'm considering either changing to F-250 springs front and rear or keeping the stock springs and adding a leveling stack in the front and a 1" spring in the rear to see if that will stabilize things.

This is definately not the tow vehicle I had in mind when I bought it... While this might muddy the waters a little, I'm hoping that if enough people talk about it, we might find out what is causing the problem.

FamilyRide · 08-29-2005, 12:21 PM

Bay,

The trailer tires SHOULD be at 50psi (load range c I assume?) or whatever the max PSI is. Mine are load c Marathons and I am anal about keeping them at 50 psi. Mine are also loaded right at their max capacity. (1870 each)

If the trailer is level, just as it was before, it shouldn't be anthing with the trailer. Are you sure nothing has changed with it? I tow mine both wet and dry and although I might feel a little difference in weight, that's about it. By dry, I mean almost empty on fuel and emtpr on water which is close to 500 lbs. 65 gallon gas tank and 20 gallon water.

I'd make double sure the trailer is level and also make sure your trucktires are inflated accordingly. I have 285's so I keep them at max psi when towing. Lower psi in the truck tires can get you swaying and bouncing on the tires. I'd go max psi on them as well.

Munkey · 09-01-2005, 06:03 PM

I've got an 05 X w/ 6.0 stock BF rt tires and no lift. I have not had a problem towing a 5000lb boat or my 6 place ATV trailer with it at all. I don't even use a WD hitch. I do keep the stock tires right up a max air though. I believe that's 80psi if my memory serves me without going and checking.

FamilyRide · 09-01-2005, 09:52 PM

BAB, any update?

BayAreaBoater · 09-02-2005, 02:31 AM

Thanks guys...

I found that the rear tires had 60 psi, tires say 80, so tomorrow I'm heading over to the station to add a few lbs to them and then I am going over to the storage unit to pick up the boat. I'll run around the area for a bit to see how it feels.

My fingers are crossed...

tfalk · 09-02-2005, 08:46 AM

Been there, tried that... didn't make any difference in my case.

In fact, Ford Dealer advised NOT to run max pressure, only what the door tag says [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

I have a 1 inch helper spring for the rear coming next week along with
the 30 mm sway bar. I'm going to install the spring in place of the snubber
so I don't have to cut it out when I install the radius arms in a couple of weeks.

FamilyRide · 09-02-2005, 11:11 AM

I wouldn't listen to th dealer on tire psi, unless it's a tire dealer. Look at the tire and it'll cite the capacity at full psi. Depending on tongue weight, you'll likely need to be at full psi towing, not to mention just to mitigate sidewall "sway".

I have D's so I have them at the 65 psi max. Prior to this truck, I tried to run less than max psi and would get the wagging pretty bad with the crap Generals that came on the Expedition. Went ot max psi and they were surprisingly great. Replaced them with Michelins and same thing.

Oh, fronts too. The frint end can sway on the side walls also which will give you the dag wagging the tail, but that's no better than the tial wagging the dog. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

tfalk · 09-02-2005, 01:36 PM

I tried running mine at 80 (max for these tires), rear was still unstable. I'm really thinking a major contributor
is the tires at this point... I may swap the Rugged Trails for a set of KO's.

If you push on the side of the EX by the rear side windows, you would be amazed at how
much side to side wiggle I'm getting just in the tires [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]