E-Series VansTechnical discussion of topics related to vans powered by any of the Navistar engines. This covers a broad number of years, but there isn't enough demand to split it any further.
yes the van is detuned due to the way the engine is "packed" in the vans. It is very tight in and around the engine and therfore doesnt have a lot of extra cooling air flow to support the extra heat increased HP/Torgue bring to the table.
in simpler terms there isnt enough room for a mouse to fart in there :-)
If i am not mistaken the tune used in the vans is the original from the engine manufacturer so i think we may get improved longeviety than the trucks which are running Ford's "hopped up" stock tune.
there is still plenty of power for towing and i am very happy with the performance of my van in all other areas including mileage.
Most Vans are destined for a life of commercial service, hauling product or people. They are also not capable of toeing fifth wheel type trailers; super heavy loads are unlikely . Ford is just erring to the side of longevity, something vastly more important to the fleet customer. That is why 6.0 vans with the intercooler still have less aggressive programming. The programmers that have looked at a 7.3 IQW1 see much less aggressive fuel/timing maps on that PCM, I am assuming the 6.0 is the same. If you are going to hop up your van the programming is key, maybe contact Jody at DP-tunes. There are a few on this site that have been happy with his work.
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Hypermax stage 2 injectors, 4" intake with Ram scoupe, QSSB Turbo, Snow Meth inj, BTS trans no spacer, Salem Kroger 4x4, Sway and traction bars, APX drivers seat, 4" straight exhaust & DP, 4" lift, 18" wheels with 325 nittos, custom valve Bilsteins, DP PCM and F5
...Stuff to make it almost as fast as a pickup.
I don't think that it is just the programming for the van engine. If you look here http://www.rebuiltdieselengines.com/ford-di.html, you will note that there is a difference with part numbers when ordering a rebuild for the F and the E series. I have emailed this company to get info on the diference, but no reply as to the difference. If it's the PCM, then couldn't we just get one off of an F-series and boost our hp that way? I think that there is more to it than the PCM. The new 6.0 has an intercooler and still puts out about 100 hp less. Would love to know what the whole difference is.
Dann
Well i'm sure there are some small differences just like on the IDI van and pickup, slightly different oil cooler and mounting brackets, just to account for the smaller space. But i doubt anything really important is that much different.
I've tried swapping a pcm from a truck. The PCM also controls the gauges, shifting and othe functions on the van or truck, didn't work. Also had some one lay truck programming over my chip and the shifting was off. The DPC code difference causes this I think. From what I've gathered putting custom fuel maps over the van program is the answer. Hope to find out this week.
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Hypermax stage 2 injectors, 4" intake with Ram scoupe, QSSB Turbo, Snow Meth inj, BTS trans no spacer, Salem Kroger 4x4, Sway and traction bars, APX drivers seat, 4" straight exhaust & DP, 4" lift, 18" wheels with 325 nittos, custom valve Bilsteins, DP PCM and F5
...Stuff to make it almost as fast as a pickup.
I never found out because the shifting wasn't correct. I didn't run it. When Ford gives HP/tq numbers are those at the wheels? If so, the other difference in the van could be the transmission programming?
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Hypermax stage 2 injectors, 4" intake with Ram scoupe, QSSB Turbo, Snow Meth inj, BTS trans no spacer, Salem Kroger 4x4, Sway and traction bars, APX drivers seat, 4" straight exhaust & DP, 4" lift, 18" wheels with 325 nittos, custom valve Bilsteins, DP PCM and F5
...Stuff to make it almost as fast as a pickup.
I hope we can keep this post going. A million questions as to the difference in F and E. Let's start with the PCM. What is the difference between the F and E as far as to what the PCM controls? I know the F has a tach, we don't. What else? Are we running the same tranny as the F series? I'm talking about automatics only. Are there other sensors on the F series that we don't have? I'm just trying to figure out why the F PCM won't work on our vans.
I would be interesting to obtain a complete parts list for the F and E series engine for the same year. I'm talking about part numbers. Are they all the same? I'm more interested in the internal parts like the valves, cam, etc. If they are the same, we have to look at the PCM.
Bottom line is that we need to find out what exactly the difference is, make adjustments, and then start to do our mods with chips etc. I would like to harness the 100hp that we are lacking first, then modify with chip to bring our hp up to the trucks potential.
Just my two cents. Hope more chime in here and we can get on the right track. I'm not buying tight quarters of our engine and the lack of cooling issue. If I purchased an F series engine and dropped her in along with an F series PCM, what will I end up with? I'm thinking a lot of power.
Dann
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I hope we can keep this post going. A million questions as to the difference in F and E. Let's start with the PCM. What is the difference between the F and E as far as to what the PCM controls? I know the F has a tach, we don't. What else? Are we running the same tranny as the F series? I'm talking about automatics only. Are there other sensors on the F series that we don't have? I'm just trying to figure out why the F PCM won't work on our vans.
I would be interesting to obtain a complete parts list for the F and E series engine for the same year. I'm talking about part numbers. Are they all the same? I'm more interested in the internal parts like the valves, cam, etc. If they are the same, we have to look at the PCM.
Bottom line is that we need to find out what exactly the difference is, make adjustments, and then start to do our mods with chips etc. I would like to harness the 100hp that we are lacking first, then modify with chip to bring our hp up to the trucks potential.
Just my two cents. Hope more chime in here and we can get on the right track.
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Since you're talking the 6.0L version you might have a somewhat difficult time accomplishing what you're looking at since most of us with some Van experience have the 7.3L.
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I'm not buying tight quarters of our engine and the lack of cooling issue. If I purchased an F series engine and dropped her in along with an F series PCM, what will I end up with? I'm thinking a lot of power.
Dann
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Well buy it or not I've actually seen both pics and in person both versions and the 6.0L in the Van is even tighter than the F-series ... Space is at a premium in the E-series engine compartment. On the 7.3L version there was no room for an intercooler and we even have a slightly different oil cooler probably due to space constraints. Also, on the 7.3L version one of the two batteries had to be mounted on the frame rail due to space contraints. On the 6.0L they did manage to get an intercooler on them, but I think it is smaller than the F-series IIRC and again because of space contraints they had to move "BOTH" batteries down to the frame rail. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Also, on the 6.0L E-series they even had to move the engine oil filter down below <font color="red"> LOOK HERE</font> which shows the FCM, oil filter, and tranny filter on the 6.0L engine. Notice the oil filter is upside down which makes for a mess when changing that filter element. I understand the fuel filter on the 6.0L engine is somewhere buried up in the engine compartment, but I think we've lost several search parties in trying to locate and gain access to it [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] For those that have never seen a PSD E-series below are a few pic of the 7.3 and 6.0 configurations. I can actually get at quite a bit of my engine after removing some interference, but I would cringe at attempting that looking at the 6.0L doghouse view. Look closely at the below pics and the difference in the space on each side and above on the two engines. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
I can tell you it does get hot in there. I've already ruined one air filter box due to heat warping the oval area <font color="red"> HERE</font> where it attaches to the rubber intake track back to the turbo. My second air box started to warp and I have now covered that area in header wrap to try and protect it better.
Larry, keeper of the <font color="red"> New revised </font><font color="blue">"little secrets" </font> CLICK HERE [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
__________________ <font color="green">MY PICTURES - Look around ... lots of good stuff </font>
2001PSD(PCM:HPI2)SD E-350,Dk Emerald Grn,4.10LS, <font color="blue">Mustang dyno - 183.9/400.4 stock</font> [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], BTS w/Schaeffer's ATF[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img] , ITP 3.5"/4" exhaust w/Magnaflow & Aeroturbine,Dieselsite 203* T-stat/Zerex G-05,F.Pwr, Ext/Int. Upgd. pkg,R. Bds,AIC,Tow Pkg, Rear & Slider windows,<font color="red">AMSOIL air, oil-bypass & rear end 75w-140 fluid ,<font color="blue">3/8" fuel sys w/10µ Dieselsite DAHL100 & fuel manifold/sight glass</font>,6 way dr. pwr. seat, Magnefine trans/P.S. filters</font>, husky mats,<font color="red">5 gauge A-pillar ISSPRO EVs w/Grn mkr illum. + air & fuel restriction gauges</font>,Dieselsite coolant filter and zinc electrode, manual GPR switch & GP LED, blinking security LED, weathertechs, a few other "Gadgets" [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], & a 1981 26' Prowler TT(26Y)
This may be overly simplistiic, but I would guess that F-series PCMs wouldn't work in a van for the same (or similar) reason that different van PCMs wouldn't work across all vans. There are probably dozens of different program versions in them based upon a number of different characteristics in each variation (and combinations) that have to be accounted for.
Obviously, we want to find out what those are, but I bet it has more to do with general programming than anything else (or programming that is based upon some obvious differences like "lack of an intercooler") -- since a chip can always seem to unleash the power that we all know is there. Vans are just retricted more than trucks from the start due to whatever different characteristics that demand it...
I think we need a Ford PCM programmer to explain the whys and what-fors.
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2001 E350 PSD, Deep Emerald Green, 3.55 LS, Premium package, dual alts, rear A/C. Quigley 4x4, Transfer Flow rear tank (27+26), handicap mods, custom interior, Reunel tire carrier w/ Hi-Lift, Sportsmobile nerf bars (black), Amsoil lubes and Dual-Gard bypass oil filter, Amsoil air filters, Eclipse/JL Audio sound system w/ Sirius & 120GB Neo Car Jukebox (MP3 player), J&J stainless grill, Reunel Stainless bumper, 12000# Warn winch, PIAA lights, Bilstein shocks, Ultra Magnum wheels, Michelin tires (265/75-16), Correctrack rear wheel spacers, Bushwhacker flares (painted), Velvet-Ride spring shackles, p/s filter, external tranny and coolant filters, Wicked Wheel, Autometer gauges(5), 203 thermo, BRV+, removed air intake heater, Optima Yellow Tops, "Harpoon" mod, DP-Tuner, 4" exhaust w/ Aeroturbine, Airdog, HX-mod.
Next on the List: a blown tranny!
Thanks Larry for all the pics. I know that our engines are tight sob's. The 7.3 and the 6.0 are both detuned. The 7.3 dosen't have an intercooler but the 6.0 does. Still we are quite short on the hp. From previous reading, an intercooler yields about 20 hp. Is that fair to say? So there is a little gain in that area. I don't think that I have ever had a cooling issue with my 7.3. Pulled quite heavy loads. Does anyone know if all the internal parts are the same? Are the cam, crank, valve specs. etc the same?
I know we have a turbo that the F guys would love to have. I know we can chip the PCM, install modified injectors, downpipe, exhaust and all, but that would bring us to F series level and not much more. I would love to get to F series level without all the mods first, and then we can start playing. Any PCM experts out there that can map the difference? There is so much I want to do to break new grounds with the van, many ideas. I would just like to find the 100 hp. first and go from there.
Dann
Our stock air intake is a huge obstacle when trying to get more out of a Van. Before I built the intake and airbox the previous mods, exhaust, turbo, water/meth, programming were never fully realized. The difference between a truck and van in stock air flow alone is probably a major reason the vans are detuned. Combined with no intercooler and intended fleet use we get lower numbers. I’m just speculating on this. I’m sure there is a Ford engineer on this site who could give us a definitive answer. The only solution is to start tweaking.
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Hypermax stage 2 injectors, 4" intake with Ram scoupe, QSSB Turbo, Snow Meth inj, BTS trans no spacer, Salem Kroger 4x4, Sway and traction bars, APX drivers seat, 4" straight exhaust & DP, 4" lift, 18" wheels with 325 nittos, custom valve Bilsteins, DP PCM and F5
...Stuff to make it almost as fast as a pickup.
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Can anyone enlighten me as to why
the E Series states 235 Hp and 440 ft-lbs of torque
and the
F series shows 325 HP and 570 ft-lbs of torque
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I haven't read the other responses to see if anyone has mentioned it, but the main reason the vans are not rated as high as the trucks is because there is no room to fit an intercooler in the van chassis. period. end of story.
Mike, as you well know, the 6.0 has an intercooler. So not end of story. It still lacks in hp over the F series. I think BlizzarVan is right about the air intake though. With an intercooler and an airbox equivlent to the F series, would we see the 100 hp? I think it would help, but not completely. Where there is a will, there is a way to intercool and do a tymar type set up. One just has to think outside the box. I have some ideas to do it, and when I find the time I can fabricate anything I need. So it is just a matter of coming up with design. I would love to help anyone design a system that would perk our rigs up. Private PM me if you are interested. I still have the question as to whether or not our 7.3 are exactly the same as truck 7.3's. I'm talking about internally. Everyone can speculate, but that ain't getting us nowhere. Anyone able to search specific internal specs. between F and E series for the same year? It would be a great start.
Dann
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