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Colorado/High Altitude Areas Regeneration Issues while Towing?

13K views 33 replies 13 participants last post by  larrgh 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi,
I'm very frustrated with my '15 F350 and am ready to trade it in for a Cummins.

Issue: When towing anything from a 3,000lb trailer to a 12,000 lb fifth wheel, the engine/DPF builds soot excessively regardless if towed level or on a steep mountain pass! It will do a marginal regeneration when towing level but NOT when climbing at high altitude 8,000 feet and higher.

Dealer service writer says that towing up a steep mountain pass should clear up exhaust but that is not true for my '15 6.7L

In fact, the soot buildup is so bad that towing up Ike tunnel caused me to regen in 70 miles since last regen!


Last week we put 1,200 miles on our truck towing our 5th wheel. All miles were in Colorado and all issues involved towing over fairly steep grades over 10,000 feet AGL.My DPF is building soot so bad towing up a mountain pass, that I went into limp mode and the only way to clean my DPF was to unhook the trailer and drive unloaded to clean. I had to do this 3 times during our vacation last week. Nothing like wasting time driving unhooked from our camper just to get the DPF cleaned out.

Interestingly, when driving over a mountain pass unloaded (not towing anything), the DPF cleans itself and soot loading reduces automatically as it should without an active regeneration. THIS DOES NOT OCCUR WHILE TOWING.

Need to know if others are having a problem. I hate to say it but '15 to '16 owners are "orphans" because the '17's are tuned for higher power.

MEDVED Ford in Castle Rock says nothing wrong with my truck since no check engine lights or codes were able to be pulled and there is nothing they can do. I call BS on them and their lack of concern.

When I showed service writer the soot loading and recordings we took, he scoffed because the loading were in grams per liter and not in a %. I guess the service manuals and diagnostics use percentages.

High altitude driver's, please share your tow experiences with soot loading and regenerations.

In 1,200 miles or towing and driving last week, I did 6 regenerations. The truck would not regen while towing unless I was going down hill. Regens that did occur while towing downhill or on a flat road were poor meaning I dropped from 3.5 grams/liter to only 1.5 grams/liter soot loading and no less! Per vehicle dash gauge, I was lucky to get to 50% exhaust loading during a "cleaning" event. The only time I got a good regens was when it occured while not towing! I also got good cleaning of the DPF just be driving it up a steep mountain pass and it was almost miraculous as the soot loading would drop as long as EGT bank 1, sensor 14 was over 700 deg F.

Side note: Air filter was replaced. The bottom pleats of air filter were covered in an oily grime but rest of filter was ok and air filter obstruction gauge showed no or little restriction. Where is the oily grime coming form on my pleats? It didn't seem to affect air flow though.

Oil level was not overfilled. Last oil change occurred a week before our last trip of summer and was filled with 12.5quarts of oil. I intentionally filled it 1/2 quart low in case I was having an issue with fuel dilution causing the oil level to increase too much which can cause oily blowby gasses to flow into the PCV system and cause engine to burn dirty.

Fuel is not the issue. Wife tows our ATVs while we camp using a 3.0L MB turbo diesel with DPF (its a Grand Cherokee Jeep) and her DPF runs like it should. We fuel at same place.

I use 8 oz of Gray Power Service in my truck each time I tank up unless it is winter and then it gets the white bottle.

ANYBODY ELSE IN HIGH ALTITUDE AREAS HAVING ISSUES WITH DPF SOOTING UP WHILE TOWING? If so, what did you do to fix it?

A trick I learned while experimenting and monitoring my vehicle: Rapidly turning off the ignition switch on and off quick enough for engine not to die and for everything else to reboot on the dash automatically took my vehicle to a 80% exhaust clogged state per dash gauge (had it activated when I first got it). This allowed me, while not towing, to force a regeneration sooner and actually get the soot down below 1gm/liter for first time ever! I did this once about 20 miles after a regeneration got my soot down to 1.5 g/liter and the switch on/off allowed another regen to occur within 50-75 miles which got me down the lowest I have ever seen. I only did this when not towing and using the truck for side excursions while camping.
 
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#2 ·
We just returned from a long vacation towing our 12,000 lb fifth wheel. Went cross country from NC and visited Grand Teton, Yellowstone, Glacier national parks then home, a total of 6501 miles. Crossed the Rockies going into Grand Teton at 8650 foot altitude. I only saw the regen message twice the entire time. The truck never missed a beat. Truck is a 2013.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I towed my 10K fiver cross country last summer through the high country similar to FoxFan. No issues with my 2015 at all. Regens every 500 miles like clockwork. I use AR6200 and Opti-Lube Summer Plus fuel additives with 5w40 synthetic oil. The problem isn't with the 2015-16 model year, but with your truck in particular. I don't know what to say about getting your issues fixed other than contacting one of the service reps in the forums.
 
#7 ·
The 2015 Diesel Owner's manual comments about needing to sustain 30mph or faster for regen. The 2016 Diesel Owner's manual comments about needing to sustain speed of 4mph or faster for regen. Maybe the TSB for jackhammering makes this change for earlier 6.7L engines?

I know in the mountains going to Estes Park a few years ago, I was unable to sustain adequate speeds to perform a regen which prompted the drive to clean message. I acquired the message a few days after I had disconnected the 5th wheel trailer and was unable to sustain the 30mph when it went into regen. I was able to find a long enough stretch of highway near Estes Park to reduce the soot level until i could get down to lower altitudes and longer stretches of road to perform a complete regen.

I would try to see if the dealer has updated the PCM or will update the PCM to the new regen strategy of using both sides of the engine for regen.
 
#8 ·
Drewd,

I have early 2015. Just finished 12k mile trip, 95% with 16k 5er in tow. Just passed 50k miles. About 4k miles was up and down between Idaho, Montana, UT, AZ, NM, and a bit of CO. A lot at 6-8k feet, a bit at 10k feet.

Zero problems except my transmission downshifting from 6 to 5 with loud bang. 5 to 4 is smooth.

Also have the % screen installed and monitor temps with TorqPro. Almost every regen started at 450-490 miles since previous regen. However, it never got down below 45% full, but reached 45% like clockwork.

Had transmission worked on in NH a few weeks ago. Re flash with the anti-jackhammer flash. First regen lasted the full 30 minutes (just like all of my previous ones) but got down to only 75% full. 200 miles later full again and regen started. This time I was sure to keep the rpm's above 2200 rpm's, using manual downshift to 5th or 4th. 30 minutes later I was down to 45%. 500 miles after I was only up to 90% full when regen started. Using same 2200 rim technique, 30 minutes later I was down to 30%. Note these since flash were on East coast, 2k feet max.

When you changed the paper air filter did you change the black foam filter beneath it? I had zero indicator suggesting need, but did replace both and clean out bugs at 35k. Yes a bit of black about 3/4 inch into the paper.
 
#9 ·
Auto insurance companies make a device that plugs into the OBDII port that captures acceleration and braking and transmits your driving habits to the company to evaluate whether to give you good driver discounts or not. You would think that something similar could be used by Ford to record PCM data for these issues that only happen under certain circumstances. PCM and sensor data would be recorded and the captured data could be used to determine difficult problems like this.
 
#10 ·
#11 · (Edited)
My vehicle speeds were all above 60mph and usually higher during all of my last 6 regens. Vehicle is used primarily for towing but is driven several times a month 120 miles at a time at 75-80mph as part of my regular commute.

Now, with that all said, I think I "cracked the code" on my issue.

I towed my fifth wheel several hundred miles today. I had about 10 miles of stop and go driving traffic and you should have seen the soot climbing like a rocket fired into outerspace. I was at 75% soot level (2.5g/liter per Forscan) when I left and by the time I hit the interstate on ramp, I was at 90%. I got up to my normal speed and kept watching the soot climb. My EGT temps for 1/4 and 11 were over 700 deg F and yet NO passive regeneration was occuring. I hit an active regen about 25 miles later at 3.58 g/liter DPF loading. Soot continued to climb to 3.74 g/liter before it started dropping. It took about 3 minutes for EGT temps to exceed 1000 deg F. Active regen lasted a total of 15 minutes but EGT temps stayed above 1000 deg F for another 8 minutes or so which took soot down to about 30% (1.5 g/liter per Forscan).

As soon as EGT temps dropped to normal 700 degree F range when towing, the soot started climbing again which made me unhappy. So much for passive regeneration.

Anyway, about 30 minutes after my regen with soot rising, traffic slowed down a bit. I then noticed that although my EGTs were the same, I no longer was building soot and upon further monitoring my soot was actually decreasing. The regen took my soot level back down to 30% and eventually down to 15% via passive regen driving at 65mph or slower. I was flabbergasted as I was actually experiencing a passive regeneration while towing. For next several hours I did experimenting and here is what I discovered:

When towing 70 to 75 mph at high altitude 6,600 feet to 12,000 feet, the additional load on engine and engine soot production ON MY TRUCK overhwelms any passive regeneration and reduces efficacy of an active regeneration.

Slowing down to 65 mph or slower in either 5th or 6th gear allowed passive regeneration to occur and made the active regeneration more effective, i.e. reduced soot levels to lower levels.

I guess I'm stuck towing at 65mph. I really don't like towing so slow as it pisses off just about everyone on the interstate here and really causes slowdowns in back of me.

So my question is for others who had the same dpf issue as I did, WHAT SPEEDS WERE YOU TRAVELING AT?

When we drove down to San Antonio earlier this year, we had ST tires and ran at 65mph. It wasn't until I got LT tires that I picked my speed to 75mph-got tired of being passed by semi's and backing up CO interstate traffic.

In October we are towing our fiver back to San Antonio. As soon as we get below 500 ft ASL, I'll see if soot builds at lower altitudes at 70 to 75mph when towing.

For now, I'm stuck at 65mph and will have to get used to being passed by Semi's going 80mph.

This thread is about DPF soot overloading at high altitude driving areas. I ask the "speed police" to refrain from commenting about the speeds I and most other Colorado licensed drivers tow at.
 
#12 ·
Drewd,

I don't tow that fast, but

I have 3.73 gears. About 1,710 rpm's at 63 mph. This used to keep me at min 45% after full 30 minutes of regen. As I mentioned, once I got the anti-jackhammer flash (both sides get fuel dumped in), I only went down to 70%. If this kept up,i would probably see more frequent regens. At 63 mph, regens towing average just a bit above 7 mpg.

So, now I drop down a gear or two in order to keep the rpm's well above 2,000 during regen, and I can get back down to 30%. A 500 mile regen now starts at 70%, getting me down to 25%. Way better mpg (0.25 is way better when you are getting 9.5) with that filter no longer being so plugged all the time.

My 2,000 rpm's due to manual downshift are not the same as your 2,000 running 75. You have all that extra wind resistance putting a lot more load on your engine. You might want to try running 70 in 5th next regen.

What gears do you have? Truck tires stock?
 
#13 ·
Nice observations. I never tow over 65 because of 1) ST tires and 2) I don't think it's safe, but that is just me. But it may explain why I haven't had those issues. I have been puzzled at times by fast building soot while towing while other times passive regens seem to be the norm. I have a CTS that monitors soot gpl, but now that I have the % DPF Full screen on my dash, it seems like that hitting 100% is the primary regen trigger. I've had a regens kick off anywhere from 1.1 to 3.5 gpl. I may have said it before, but I use Opti-Lube Summer Plus and AR6200, both of which are supposed to reduce soot.
 
#14 ·
I took a short job in Denver this summer and had my 250 in the worst traffic I've ever exposed it to. While I was abusing the absolute crap out of my truck in the worst city traffic I've ever experienced, I was able to play with a few things and experiment. As JohnD pointed out, load/rpm affect how soot buildup/regen cycles take place. The first few weeks I was in Denver I knew it was going to be an idle city. Idle here, idle there. All bad news for diesels in general. I let the truck do what it wanted for about the first month I was out there. It wasn't great. I averaged about 10.5mpg and hit a regen probably every other day. It was unfortunate that the distance to the job barely allowed for the truck to get up to operating temp for maybe 5-10 minutes and then I was there, and shut it down. So most of the time I was interrupting regens. I don't have some of the fancier monitors that people around here use, but I do have my Livewire hooked up, and according to its DPF soot mass PID, the truck was operating around 2.3-2.5 at all times. I couldn't get a good enough regen in to clear it out, except on the weekends when I would get it out on the highway and let it breathe. The last month I was out there I started manually limiting the tranny to 4th gear as it's highest gear selection. Being that I rarely exceeded 30mph. This kept my average RPM at around 1500-2000. It made a difference. The truck still was operating around 2.3-2.5 soot mass, but it wasn't hitting 2.75 (which is where regens kick in, for me) as often. In fact I usually hit a regen once a week at that point. I can only assume the extra rpm was allowing better passive regen. Fuel mpg average went up from 10.5 to 12mpg as well. In those circumstances, manipulating gear selection or limitations was effective.

When I left Denver and headed back to Vegas, going through the mountains I finally triggered the ultimate regen for the truck. DPF soot mass went from 2.81 down to 1.05, holding 5th gear at 2,200rpm uphill for a good leg, turbo was pushing about 7.5psi. I've never had a regen cycle reduce the soot mass that low before, or as quickly. For the rest of my trip back I didn't have any more regens, and soot mass kept around 1.5-1.75 the whole trip. I averaged 21.3mpg from Grand Junction to Vegas, stopping twice to top off (I usually don't run the tank below 1/2, paranoid fuel/water habit). Since I've been back in Vegas, I hit a regen about every 300-350 miles. But I was impressed to see the truck go almost 700 miles without a regen, cruising mostly at 80mph @1900-2000rpm.

I've read most peoples opinions about restricting O/D and gears, the general opinion comes down to, let the truck do what it's programmed to. For the most part I agree. I find that it can be contradicting to the notion that "idling a diesel is bad." If it's bad to idle a diesel for extended periods, I can't see how it's good to cruise around town in 6th gear (essentially idling) at 35-45mph. If you step down to 4th gear (at least at my gear ratio) it keeps RPM's above idle, and still manages good fuel economy. I can't see how it would harm the truck, other than potentially more wear on the tranny?

I know my response isn't strictly pertinent to your issue OP, but may be relevant if you're towing in O/D conditions or low rpms.
 
#15 ·
Hi,
I'm very frustrated with my '15 F350 and am ready to trade it in for a Cummins.

Issue: When towing anything from a 3,000lb trailer to a 12,000 lb fifth wheel, the engine/DPF builds soot excessively regardless if towed level or on a steep mountain pass! It will do a marginal regeneration when towing level but NOT when climbing at high altitude 8,000 feet and higher.

Dealer service writer says that towing up a steep mountain pass should clear up exhaust but that is not true for my '15 6.7L

In fact, the soot buildup is so bad that towing up Ike tunnel caused me to regen in 70 miles since last regen! ...
Hello Drewd,

My name is Deysha from Ford Service. Let’s get this escalated for you. Please, PM me with your VIN, dealer, mileage, full name, and best daytime number.

Ford does have a pendent that attaches to the VCM to record data. The Customer Flight Recorder (CFR) is basincally memory to store the selected data points. The question is, how long would a dealer want to tie up a VCM so you can record the data.

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/ford_content/catalog/ids_manuals/CFRManual_ENG.pdf
Thank you for sharing this info, larrgh!

Deysha
 
#19 ·
Its an engineering issue and not something that can be solved by a Ford dealership. All the monkeys in the service bays will do is plug a VCM and hook it up to IDS software and tell me that there are no codes and everything is ok. Already got that response once at Medved Ford and their suggestion was for me to drive the truck faster and harder when I'm towing. I guess 70 to 75mph isn't enough when hill climbing in the mountains????

Ford needs to get involved and test their second gen while towing at 70 to 75mph at high altitude. I received another PM from a forum member who had the same problems towing in Colorado as I did. He drives/tows faster than 65mph.

I'll probably keep the F350 for now and repair the emission system issue myself.
 
#17 ·
I own a '15 F250. 50% of the miles are done towing a 9000 pound fifth wheel trailer. In 2015 and 2016 I drove from AZ to Colorado in July via Salt River Canyon (US60), big up and down, and over Wolf Creek Pass, Poncha Pass, Fremont Pass, Vail Pass, Rabbit Ears Pass, and probably a couple more. I just came back home from an 8000 mile trip that started in mid July. I have had no problems like you describe.

I have also done big climbs here in AZ in 100F weather. No problems, but my Oil temp does rise to 242.

I try to keep my speeds under 65mph because I have ST tires on my trailer (no choice unless I change size), and I think it is unsafe to drive faster while towing.
 
#22 ·
My '16 F350 SRW tows my 15K 5th wheel very well throughout the West.

Several trips back and forth through the Ike Gauntlet this summer yielded zero regens that I noticed occurring. I have an Edge just for the monitoring capability. The soot levels never build up to the point of a Regen since the Egt's from climbing grades and the sheer weight of the trailer cause spontaneous soot burn off in the dpf.

I also made trips to S. Dakota, Montana, and back down through Wyoming that enjoyed less steep grades. I did see a single Regen driving through towns, idleing, and making our way through campgrounds, etc.

When I am not towing, I do see more soot load build up faster and my truck goes into more Regen cycles than my '13 ever did...
I don't know if the turbo or different tuning is the cause...but, it is definitely more noticeable and annoying to have the frequent regens in town in my current '16 vs the '13.
 
#23 ·
Hi FordServie...2016 F350 with DEF System Fault...twice! only 4200 miles on it...anyway you can contact my Dealer and walk them through the repair? They are not very familiar with this issue...1st time, the had the truck for 3 days and exactly 2 weeks later the error came back...all they did the 1st time was to do a software update...I cannot PM you as I am a newbie...how do we go about this? Thanks
 
#24 ·
I have the same issue but worse in Colorado

So I just bought this truck. Took it to Medved Ford where I live as it seemed to be doing regens every 40-50 miles. They updated the software and did a manual regen. This was on Thursday 8/17/2017. I left town towing my 5th on Friday and headed into the mountains. Then the DPF soot level (gpl, I have an Edge CTS2 to read levels) started climbing .01 gpl every 2 seconds. I could only go about 3 miles then had to pull over. I did a manual regen, then again same thing made it 3 miles. Had to tow it home. Now it goes back to the dealer tomorrow and they want to start replacing DPF, sensors and anything else they can think of. I drove it in town yesterday and with no load same thing. And I have manually regened it a few times it just builds up super fast and this is all after the software update at the dealer that they say has nothing to do with it.
 
#25 ·
Mine is going to Medfed Ford in Castle Rock tomorrow morning.

When towing on flat ground, soot loading increases by 5% every 4 miles. On hills soot loading is crazy and results in an overloaded DPF. disconnecting my 5th wheel is the only way it has a chance to do a regen but only going downhill or on flat ground..

When driving unloaded, soot loading increases by 5% every 9 miles. It will regen on flat ground or downhill but not on mountain passses.


B20 biodiesel fuel results:

I added 7 gallons of B100 biodiesel to give me a 20% biodiesel mixture. While driving unloaded soot loading increases by 5% every 20 miles which is acceptable. I have not tried it wtowing my 5th wheel.

B20 burns cleaner then regular diesel but doesn't burn hot enough when a regen occurs. Using B20 is not the solution to Ford's design problem.

I'm not expecting much from the Ford dealership.
 
#26 ·
You might consider using Everburn, a product designed to dramatically reduce regen intervals. http://betterdiesel.com/trucker-testimonials/ I am on my first tank with it after seeing a member from another forum post dramatic results in trials with his fleet trucks. I've been using Opti-Lube Summer Plus and AR6200 for the last 40,000 miles with decent results and getting 500 mile regen intervals of 500 miles with a 76 mile daily commute and DP-Tuner tow tune, but that interval is 350 miles since retirement. Enerburn suggests slightly increased dosing for the first 4 tanks or 4-6 weeks before changing to the maintenance dose of an ounce per 25 gallons. Enerburn has a makeup similar to AR6200, but is strictly for diesel fuel vs all fuel for AR6200.
 
#27 ·
Thanks for the tip but I don't think that a fuel additive should be used to "fix" an issue that mainly occurs when towing at high altitude. Last October, we took a 2000 mile trip to much lower elevations towing our 5th wheel. The DPF passively regenerated the entire time. I actually got the DPF soot % gauge down to 5% several times. Regenerations still occurred every 500 miles although actual soot level was negligible- I guess Ford has it on a schedule to regen at set mileage frame even if it doesn't need it.



I'm giving the dealer another opportunity. Wish me luck.
 
#28 ·
Thanks for the tip but I don't think that a fuel additive should be used to "fix" an issue that mainly occurs when towing at high altitude. Last October, we took a 2000 mile trip to much lower elevations towing our 5th wheel. The DPF passively regenerated the entire time. I actually got the DPF soot % gauge down to 5% several times. Regenerations still occurred every 500 miles although actual soot level was negligible- I guess Ford has it on a schedule to regen at set mileage frame even if it doesn't need it.



I'm giving the dealer another opportunity. Wish me luck.
Yes, even if you are having passive regens, the ECU is programmed to regen at 500 mile intervals since the END of the last regen.
 
#31 ·
I'll will know for sure next Monday whether the delaership fixedmy truck or not. It got a new MAP sensor, ECU program updated, and a stationary regen which took the DPF back to 0%.

I drove it back home 40 miles at 70mph and the DPF soot loading increased from 0% to 10%-this is very acceptable to me and much better than the drive up to the dealership earlier this week. The true test will be when I hook up my 5th on Monday and take it for a 200-300 drive up a couple of mountain passes to see what it does.

Wish me luck!
 
#32 ·
I am trialing Enerburn (like AR6200 with more soot management) with my truck so I was really watching soot GPL and DPF Load on my CTS while towing across Vermont and New Hampshire. Under hard uphill pulls the EGTs were 700-1000 degrees, but as long as the hammer was down, soot continued to increase until the peak. Then, under reduced throttle for level or down hill, soot GPL would drop rapidly from the high EGTs. It takes letting off some to burn off soot as heavy throttle pushes more exhaust gas out than the DPF can process effectively. If you are not monitoring soot GPL (grams per liter), you have no way of knowing this and knowing that working your truck hard will clean the DPF will move you toward problems.
With Enerburn, my soot GPL was 2.52 when I left home and 2.10 when I exited the interstate near my destination 150 miles later.
 
#33 ·
Colorado is high altitude

What you don't understand is that we live in Colorado and have mountains. Once we hit I-70 and start climbing we are climbing for up to an hour or so. When the truck loads up and starts throwing codes and lights then limits your power then you have to pull over after 5 miles that is not a good situation. I made pulling for 15 minutes then the truck made me pull over. Regened it manually as I have a CTS2 then pulled again. 2 miles gpl from 1.0 to 6.7 in 2 miles. NOT acceptable. Ford updated my software, manual regen number 6, new MAP and EBP sensor. I head up again on Friday and will see if the new sensors helped as the software and regen did nothing.
 
#34 ·
There is a TSB out that might cover this issue. I have not seen a complete copy of the TSB.

TSB 17-0021

03/17/17 Transmission and Drivetrain NHTSA ID: 10095623
TSB ID: TSB 17-0021

Some 2015-2016 f-super duty pickup vehicles equipped with a 6.7l engine may exhibit an illuminated malfunction indicator lamp (mil) with dtcs p2002, p2201, p2459, p2463 and/or p246c. reprogram the powertrain control module (pcm) to the late... (as far as the info goes on the website but think it is saying to update to the latest version of IDS software)

DTC P2002 - Particulate Filter Efficiency Below Threshold
DTC P2201 - NOx Sensor Circuit Range/Performance
DTC P2459 - Diesel Particulate Filter Regeneration Frequency
DTC P2463 - not a code MY2015 6.7L
DTC P246C - Diesel Particulate Filter Restriction – Forced Limited Power
 
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