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Per dealership don't use synthetic oil in 6.7L??

218K views 121 replies 32 participants last post by  wpetko 
#1 ·
I normally change my own oil and I use Shell Rotella T6. I realize from reading several of the posts on here there are many of you as well that use this oil. I just went to Walmart and picked up my oil and filter and my oil change costs me about $90. I decided to call the dealership and see what they now charge for a full synthetic oil change to see if the savings is worth my time. I was quoted $221 for a synthetic blended oil change with an oil additive (for lower operating temps per quote). I was told from the "shop foremen" a bulletin was written by Ford to the dealerships indicating for them not to use a full synthetic oil because it does not properly lubricate the top end of the engine and the Rotella T6 or Mobil 1 does not have the required detergents the engine needs contrary to the label.

I explained how my diesel supplement manual calls for 5w-40 under there severe service due to my driving conditions, which was itemized in that manual and I was just following the manufacturer recommendations. Once again I was told the newest info is use a synthetic blend and not use 5w-40.

So I am reaching out to all of you to see if anyone else has heard this and am I ok still using the Rotella T6 (5w-40) or should I switch to the Rotella T5 (10w-40). I am hoping someone who works at a dealership or anyone can confirm or deny what I was told.
 
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#2 ·
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#3 · (Edited)
Ford Motor Company discovered that some of the CK-4 oils with lower phosphorous levels do not provide the same anti-wear protection as the CJ-4. They discovered premature wear in testing of the oils. Ford has developed a new motor oil CK-4 specification for all of their engines with the WSS-M2C171-F1 specification and will be available early this year. Until then and as the CJ-4 oils are phased out you should continue to use the CJ-4 oils. Going forward be sure to read the label carefully and be sure to use oils with the specification whether it be Motorcraft or another brand.


https://youtu.be/NsZJhOAfwgk
 
#6 ·
So is T6 ok to use?
 
#7 ·
If older CJ-4 then yes, if new CK-4 then it is NO.


THIS IS SPECULATION BASED ON 35 YEARS IN AUTO INDUSTRY WITH A MANUFACTURER!

The ramp down of some metal additives that provide increased resistance to wear for wiping contact components (rocker arm to valve stem for instance) given that DPF cleaning introduces some fuel dilution that also has adverse effects on these parts, likely puts the new oils off the list. Other additives exist that offer similar protections but that is not apparently in many oils now.

Ford oils do not meet CK-4 according to specs on Motorcraft Parts website.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Rotella doesn't make the list for 5W40. If you want to run 15W40, then Rotella is fine.


If you google WSS-M2C171-F1, you can go to a Ford Motorcraft site that lists the brands approved to meet this spec.


Looks like I will be switching on the next oil change.

 
#9 ·
Ford was SO late in the CK-4 game to step up and state that CK-4 oils do not meet the wear specification for their engines (were they sleeping during the past 4 years?). Then to suddenly create a new specification a few weeks before CK-4 debuted in the marketplace is pretty lame in my book. The current spec for the 2015 and 2016 MY 6.7L Powerstrokes is WSS-M2C171–E and very few CJ-4 oils meet that specification. In the mainstream oils that I have used (Rotella T6 5W-40, Kendall Super-Dxa 15W-40, Delo 400 LE 5W-40, Delo 400 XLE 10W-30, and Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40) only the Rotella T6 and Kendall have the Ford specification (WSS-M2C171–E), but obviously all of them meet API CJ-4 which is what is really required.

My guess is not many of the majors will carry the new specification (WSS-M2C171-F1) either, but I did read a few articles online where Shell stated they were working with Ford to meet the new specification so time will tell. In the end, unless Ford is going to give oil away for free, they will have to get with the program because CJ-4 will go the way of the dodo bird and CK-4 will take over. It is ironic to me that all of the OTR diesels have accepted CK-4, but Ford does not. I have enough CJ-4 on the shelf to last quite a while so hopefully the majors will either meet the new Ford specification or Ford will concede in some way.
 
#10 ·
I must correct my previous post.

My 2012 owners manual also states WSS-M2C171-E is the spec that is supposed to go in my truck.

Rotella T6 meets this spec according to Shell's information.
 
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#11 ·
For the time being, I have enough Rotella T6 and Valvoline Blue 4w40 for 3 oil changes. Maybe in the meantime, Ford will get their act together and finalize the oil specs.
 
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#12 ·
As outlined in the owners manual I have been using 10W30 Ford Diesel oil and change it every 5K. I have to say after 105K she runs like a charm. (Knock on wood) I think the quick change shops are only interested in pumping up the price and why they only list synthetic.
My suggestion is to use what the manufacturer recommends since it is what the engine was designed for and what it was tested using.
Unfortunately 10W30 has been getting hard to find so I have it done at Ford or I end up doing it myself. In my neck of the woods Walmart has the best price in town.
 
#14 · (Edited)
If you want to follow Ford's advice, don't use Rotella T6 on the shelf after October 2016 (all T6 in the new bottles is CK4, even though it says CJ4 on bottle), as Ford thinks it has too little P for adequate wear protection.

If you want to use a 5w40 that Ford thinks is ok, easiest acceptable ones to get are either Mobil 1 TDT 5w40 or Mystik 5w40. These two 5w40 HDEOs are still CJ4 (and, importantly, aren't changing to CK4), and have more than 1000 ppm phosphorous (P) and are OK per Ford.

Ford has testing ongoing and hopefully will approve more 5w40s this Spring. Many more 10w30 and 15w40 oils are already on their approved list.

https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/main/additionalinfo/dieseloilsWSSM2C171F1.pdf

Ford statement:

Ford Motor Company CK-4/FA-4 Ford Position Statement
Starting on December 1, 2016 the American Petroleum Institute (API) will begin licensing
two new diesel motor categories CK-4 and FA-4. API CK-4 is being released to replace
CJ-4. FA-4 is a low viscosity diesel oil released for diesel engines designed for a lower
viscosity oil.
API FA-4
Due to its low viscosity FA-4 should not be used in any Ford diesel vehicles at this time.
API CK-4
Ford will not be recommending the use of CK-4 motor oils in any Ford diesel engines,
new or old. Testing Ford has done on some CK-4 formulations have shown inadequate
wear protection compared to CJ-4 formulations developed and licensed before 2016.
Like many other diesel engine manufacturers, with their own internal OEM specification,
Ford will now be recommending oils that meet an OEM specification, Ford Material
Engineering Specification WSS-M2C171-F1. The customer should use an oil showing
that it meets this specification.
An oil showing CJ-4 in the API donut without showing CK-4 would be acceptable for
service even if not showing WSS-M2C171-F1. This oil would most likely be an older CJ-
4 formulation, developed and licensed prior to 2016. These oils could be around for
about a year after CK-4 licensing begins, December 1, 2016. Field experience and Ford
testing has shown that these older CJ-4 formulations provide acceptable 6.7L engine
protection.
To insure you protect your Ford diesel engine use an oil meeting Ford specification
WSS-M2C171-F1 like Motorcraft Super Duty Motor oil.
 
#17 ·
Amsoil Premium 5W40 carries the WSS-M2C171E requirement in my owner's manual. I will assume this is what Ford is looking for in my engine. I have used their products for 25 years without any issues.

AMSOIL Premium 5W-40 Synthetic Diesel Oil is recommended for diesel engines and, where appropriate, gasoline engines requiring any of the following specifications:
• SAE 5W-40
• API Licensed CJ-4, CI-4+, CF, SN, SM • ACEA E7, E9
• Mack EO-O
• DDC 93K218
• Caterpillar ECF-3, ECF-2, ECF-1-a
• Cummins 20081
• Volvo VDS-4, VDS-3
• MS 10902
• MB 228.31
• MTU Type I & II, Type 2.1
• MAN 3275, 3575
• JASO DH-2
• Global DHD-1
• Renault RLD-3
• Ford WSS-M2C171E
 
#20 · (Edited)
Here is a nice article that gives a good overview of the "issue" and Ford's stance. It seems that by April we should have an overall decision from Ford about CK-4 oils.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Thanks, that was a good read. Seems like the issue is with multi-vehicle oils that are rated for both CK-4 (diesel) and SN (gas) engines. The SN rating for gas engines has a lower allowed level of phosphors and is what the valve train on the 6.7 needs for wear protection.

So if you see an oil with a CK-4 and SN API rating, stay away from that. CK-4 (with no mention of multi-use or any S rating) should be OK.

I'm no expert, just how I read it.

This article confirms my thoughts and has updates (January 2017).

An interesting paragraph from this reads "Further clarification from the American Petroleum Institute. They tell us that 40-weight diesel engine oils (such as 5W-40, 15W-40, 0W-40) can have both the API CK-4 and API SN specs and still abide by the higher API CK-4 phosphorus limit. On the other hand, 0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30 engine oils carrying both the API SN and API CK-4 specs have to abide by the lower SN phosphorous limit of 800 ppm.

So make sure you read the labels when buying oil.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Mods and TDS forum members, If I want to discuss how the CK-4 will affect older Ford engines such as the 7.3 PSD, should I begin a new thread in that specific forum?

Many of us use the Shell Rotella T-6 and the issue of low Phosphorous content in the new CK-4 rated oils should concern all of us diesel owners, right?

http://rotella.shell.com/media/2016/fords-position-statement.html

Thanks
 
#24 ·
I just put 13 quarts in my 6.7 of a relatively new oil recommended by my tribologist, Terry Dyson of DysonAnalysis.com ...

RLI 15w-40 HDMO low ash and the Amsoil EAo filter.

The problem is ... when I drained the Ford oil (I'd been having their service department change mine as I discovered how fast the oil drains i these things last year) ... it overflowed a 15 quart old school drain pan. Has anyone had their 6.7 over serviced?

I'd be concerned about fuel dilution creating this volume, but that's a LOTTA fuel ... 3-5 quarts in 5000K miles and 3 months.

Thanks,

Al
 
#25 ·
I'd be concerned about fuel dilution creating this volume, but that's a LOTTA fuel ... 3-5 quarts in 5000K miles and 3 months.
If you had that much fuel in the oil, the viscosity would have been catastrophically reduced and consequently the engine would have likely failed--especially if it is being operated under a load. I would DEFINITELY perform a UOA on the oil going forward to understand what is happening.
 
#28 ·
My local WalMart still has CJ-4 Rotella T6 on the shelf.

No mention of CK-4 on the 1-gallon jug anywhere but the jug has a new shape.

Am I reading this right? The circle or starburst indicates API CJ-4/SM.
 

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#29 · (Edited)

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#32 ·
Wow its good I check the forums. Might be a good idea for them to send something out to all 6.7 owners. I was a T6 guy 10w-30 what is everyone switching to then? Looked at the list never heard of any of those that qualify.
 
#33 ·
I'm still going to use Rotella T6 5w-40. Shell is confident that Ford will approve their oil and based on the article I posted a few posts above, ?w-40 oils that are CK-4/SN approved are allowed to have the higher phosphate levels.

It also appears that Shell has two formulas for T6:

Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil Products | Shell ROTELLA®

T6 HDEO - rated API: CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4 (note there is no SM or SN rating on this)
T6 Multi-Vehicle oil - rated API CK-4, API SN

If I'm reading this correctly, I would stay away from the multi-vehicle oil for Powerstrokes. What has me confused though is the landing page above, the text for both of these oils states meeting CK-4 and SN. I think (hope) that is a mistake since clicking in on the first shows no SN rating.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Over the years I and others have tested oils on site in some of the most powerful Pulling / Race engines in N/A, it seems that oils for extreme conditions with high levels of Zinc and moly reduce wear better than other additives. So if you use lube with high levels of those additives wear won't be a problem even with PHO levels at 700-800PPM . If Ford doesn't want to get on board Fine, but Maybe Ford should disclose the additive package they recommend, Not rating.

On edit: (others)
 
#36 ·
In theory, yes. I say this because Shell commented in Q3 of 2016 that CK-4 oil would be in the jugs before the end of 2016 without CK-4 markings on the jug. The new CK-4 bottles look like this:




The PDS for the "old" T6 had the Ford specification listed in it:

Rotella T6 CJ-4
 
#38 · (Edited)
Personally, I highly doubt Shell have been packaging CK-4 in CJ-4 bottles. That could create a law suit if something happened anyone's engine and it was due to this false labeling/advertising. Plastics can be recycled very easily now days, so, why would Shell risk a law suit? Think this is merely a myth following about the internet.

Why not call Shell and ask them?

Have a Technical Question about a Shell Lubricant Product?

  • 800-237-8645


Shells info page on CK-4


http://rotella.shell.com/products/pc-11.html
 
#41 · (Edited)
Personally, I highly doubt Shell have been packaging CK-4 in CJ-4 bottles. That could create a law suit if something happened anyone's engine and it was due to this false labeling/advertising. Plastics can be recycled very easily now days, so, why would Shell risk a law suit? Think this is merely a myth following about the internet.

Why not call Shell and ask them?

Have a Technical Question about a Shell Lubricant Product?

  • 800-237-8645


Shells info page on CK-4


What is PC-11? Now Called CK-4 & FA-4 | Shell ROTELLA®
This issue has been covered extensively on BITOG and other sites.
There is no risk of a successful lawsuit since this CK-4 is considered a superior product and it DOES meet all the requirements of the API CJ-4 rating.

The only issues with false labeling are when an inferior product is packaged to indicate it has features it does not. For instance, if the CK-4 were not backward compatible (but it is) or if they had placed CI-4 in a jug labeled CJ-4.

Here is a deal for you. I will bet you the cost of an Oil Analysis that the new design gallon jugs labeled CJ-4 actually have CK-4 in them :winking:
 
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