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'11-Up General Questions General questions related to 2011-Up Super Duty trucks. If it doesn't fit the other categories, post it here. Gas engine discussion that pertains to all models is allowed. Specific gas engine questions should use the Gas Engines forum.

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Old 02-23-2012, 04:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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What does Ford have against manual transmissions?

Years ago when I had my Dodge, I swore up and down that I would never own another automatic diesel. Well, I lied to myself when I bought my F250. I'm sure Ford has their reasons, but not sure they make sense from my perspective.

I know that the new auto wants to learn how I drive, but until they program it to take my verbal input (cursing), I'm not going to appreciate it. With a stick, there's no learning curve.

Would anyone else buy a manual? The way I see it, I would only lose my precious console, but I could overcome that. FWIW, the lack of a stick option was not enough of a deterrent with buying a Ford. It's not like I would buy a Dodge again just for the handshaker.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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You can run it in manual if it makes you feel better.......
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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It's not like I can afford a $60,000 pickup, but if I could it WOULD be a manual, which means I'd have to look at OTHER than a FORD, first time I've not driven a Ford p/u in thirty-two years. I drove DAD's Ford's as a kid, bought a POS Chevy LUV truck in '78 and finally got my first F150 spring of 1980. ALL those trucks had/have manual trans, as have most of my cars.

I went on Kelly Blue Book, and yes Dodge, now RAM, makes a manual 6-spd, but the trucks are all assembled in Mexico.... nothing against Mexico but there's enough people out of work in the US that I would BUY a US made p/u. I then looked at an International TerraStar and it's only tranny option is an Allison 1000..... Guess I could look at something bigger from International.... something with a manual & DT466.... Or look at something else in that size range, a little Peterbilt or ???

I waited Thirteen weeks for my '96 PSD because I ordered the manual 5-spd.... Could have bought dozens off the lot with the E4OD. Needless to say, I'm glad I waited for the ZF 5-spd.

If FMC doesn't want to make manual trans pickups anymore that's fine.... They won't miss my business.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Ford has a manual mode on the Automatic transmission. it might be easier on the cabs for production from what I have been told..
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jrc1978 View Post
I know that the new auto wants to learn how I drive, but until they program it to take my verbal input (cursing), I'm not going to appreciate it. With a stick, there's no learning curve.
That's a myth that the transmission learns how you drive. For 19 years at Ford it was my job to program this stuff in automatics, so I have some insight into how it works.

What the computer learns is how long your particular transmission takes to complete a given shift from when the computer commands the shift until the computer detects the shift has completed by reading the speed sensors. It doesn't matter how you drive.

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Would anyone else buy a manual? The way I see it, I would only lose my precious console, but I could overcome that.
The one and only reason Ford doesn't offer a manual transmission is that they couldn't sell enough to make a profit. They are not in business to make what a few enthusiasts want, they are in business to make a profit. It cost a lot to stock all the parts that change between a manual and an automatic, plus the engineering to design, proveout, and certify with the Feds for production. If you haven't worked in the auto industry you don't have a clue how cutthroat it is for costs. They will do ANYTHING to save a penny on a vehicle, this adds many dollars to offer a second transmission type.

Not enough were sold to make it worthwhile. As you found out you never would find one on a dealer's lot. Did they not sell because the dealers wouldn't stock them, or would the dealers not stock them because they wouldn't sell? I don't know.

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it might be easier on the cabs for production from what I have been told..
It's cost. That's ALWAYS the reason. If they could make money at it they would sell it.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
That's a myth that the transmission learns how you drive. For 19 years at Ford it was my job to program this stuff in automatics, so I have some insight into how it works.

What the computer learns is how long your particular transmission takes to complete a given shift from when the computer commands the shift until the computer detects the shift has completed by reading the speed sensors. It doesn't matter how you drive.


The one and only reason Ford doesn't offer a manual transmission is that they couldn't sell enough to make a profit. They are not in business to make what a few enthusiasts want, they are in business to make a profit. It cost a lot to stock all the parts that change between a manual and an automatic, plus the engineering to design, proveout, and certify with the Feds for production. If you haven't worked in the auto industry you don't have a clue how cutthroat it is for costs. They will do ANYTHING to save a penny on a vehicle, this adds many dollars to offer a second transmission type.

Not enough were sold to make it worthwhile. As you found out you never would find one on a dealer's lot. Did they not sell because the dealers wouldn't stock them, or would the dealers not stock them because they wouldn't sell? I don't know.


It's cost. That's ALWAYS the reason. If they could make money at it they would sell it.

Mark I totally agree with you on this.. R and D parts, and all the stuff we dont think about..
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:35 PM   #7 (permalink)
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99% of the market does not want a manual anymore. They use their trucks for grocery getters and commuter cars which get stuck in traffic that along with their left legs getting weaker from sitting around playing video games on the computers in their off time. I read a thread on another forum today where a member was complaining that the new TV that he bought couldn't be programed for his universal remote and he had to get up out of his chair to either turn the TV on or off or go find his other remote.

I will be willing to say that within 5 years or even less you will not see a truck manufactured with a manual in it, they'll all be automatics.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I could not ever see getting a F450 or bigger truck with an automatic.......

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Old 02-23-2012, 10:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I could not ever see getting a F450 or bigger truck with an automatic.......
The F450 and bigger are not in the same class as the 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton models. Not nearly as many units sold either on an annual basis.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:55 AM   #10 (permalink)
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If you haven't worked in the auto industry you don't have a clue how cutthroat it is for costs. They will do ANYTHING to save a penny on a vehicle, this adds many dollars to offer a second transmission type.


It's cost. That's ALWAYS the reason. If they could make money at it they would sell it.
By saying "Ford has their reasons" in my original post, I was implying cost. To assume that you have some divine insight because you work in the auto industry, I beg to differ. As consumers, I believe we are hyper-aware that Ford has done anything to save money, even when it killed people. Yes we remember events like the Firestone tire debacle. We also remember that they took a perfectly good Navistar motor and value engineered it to make a few extra dollars. How did all that work out for them?

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I read a thread on another forum today where a member was complaining that the new TV that he bought couldn't be programed for his universal remote and he had to get up out of his chair to either turn the TV on or off or go find his other remote.

I will be willing to say that within 5 years or even less you will not see a truck manufactured with a manual in it, they'll all be automatics.
Since we're on the subject, I'm not the type of person to ***** about getting up to change the TV station. My solution would be to automate the device through my AMX system and control it via my iPad. If I'm smart enough to do that, automating my left leg and right arm while driving down the road should be a piece of cake.

To reiterate, I'm not going to have buyers remorse over an automatic transmission, provided it does not experience some sort of catastrophic failure. As a consumer, it seems very odd that a company would look at tow hooks as an item that needs a chrome option, and in the same breathe, summarily dismiss a manual transmission option. Again, this is only my view as a consumer, a position I have held for 16 years.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
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We also remember that they took a perfectly good Navistar motor and value engineered it to make a few extra dollars. How did all that work out for them?
You have either an imperfect memory, or more likely, you just don't know the facts.

The Navistar engine was a piece of crap completely designed and engineered by Navistar. Ford did not value engineer it, they gave Navistar cost/timing/performance goals and Navistar signed a contract that they would meet those goals. They failed miserably.

Ford does have responsibility because they installed those engines in Ford trucks. But to say it was a perfectly good engine that Ford ruined is a gross distortion of what really happened.

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As a consumer, it seems very odd that a company would look at tow hooks as an item that needs a chrome option, and in the same breathe, summarily dismiss a manual transmission option. Again, this is only my view as a consumer, a position I have held for 16 years.
Tow hooks have a very different reason for being on the truck. They are their to make the truck look tough, which Ford believes helps sell trucks. Compared to a manual transmission option they are so cheap as to be practically free, and the help sell trucks. Ford is convinced that a manual trans option will not help sell more trucks, it will just reduce the number of automatic trucks by a small amount. So it's a net loss.

As a consumer you should always buy what you want or what makes you happy. If Ford's offerings don't do that you shouldn't buy a Ford. It's really that simple. It doesn't make a difference to me, I'll get my pension either way.

What I don't like is non-truths out there, such as Ford ruined the 6.0L. I think Ford should never have sold that engine, but having worked on the TorqShift trans at the time the 6.0L was being developed and launched I saw first hand who was doing what. To say Ford engineering caused the problems is just wrong.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Good post, sir, and spot on... Thank you..
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:29 AM   #13 (permalink)
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You have either an imperfect memory, or more likely, you just don't know the facts.

The Navistar engine was a piece of crap completely designed and engineered by Navistar. Ford did not value engineer it, they gave Navistar cost/timing/performance goals and Navistar signed a contract that they would meet those goals. They failed miserably.

Ford does have responsibility because they installed those engines in Ford trucks. But to say it was a perfectly good engine that Ford ruined is a gross distortion of what really happened.


Tow hooks have a very different reason for being on the truck. They are their to make the truck look tough, which Ford believes helps sell trucks. Compared to a manual transmission option they are so cheap as to be practically free, and the help sell trucks. Ford is convinced that a manual trans option will not help sell more trucks, it will just reduce the number of automatic trucks by a small amount. So it's a net loss.

As a consumer you should always buy what you want or what makes you happy. If Ford's offerings don't do that you shouldn't buy a Ford. It's really that simple. It doesn't make a difference to me, I'll get my pension either way.

What I don't like is non-truths out there, such as Ford ruined the 6.0L. I think Ford should never have sold that engine, but having worked on the TorqShift trans at the time the 6.0L was being developed and launched I saw first hand who was doing what. To say Ford engineering caused the problems is just wrong.

I can see the point-counterpoint argument lasting for days on this. So what your saying is that Ford did not in any way, order the 6.0L Navistar motor to be built to their own specifications? Am I correctly reading your post? They just bought crate motors that were entirely designed and built by Navistar and slapped them into Super Duty trucks?

What I'm trying to point out is that there are parallels to the Firestone and Navistar issues. The common ground that seems to stick out the most is that Ford will never accept blame, even at the cost of completely destroying the other company, through public relations or the court system, in order to maintain it's own image.

Getting back to the tow hooks, I use them. Not because they look tough, but because they are useful. I've used them to pull out other trucks, quads, etc. I question your opinion that they are strictly an ornament. I also call into question that a $53,000 purchase would hinge on the fact that a truck has a questionable finish on their tow hooks, and that this would take precedence over the fact that it does not have an option for a manual transmission. I would like to see the bean counter's paperwork that states having a manual transmission in their bread and butter line of vehicles nets them a loss. Granted, the amount of people who would choose a manual over an automatic may be dwindling, but Ford has pretty much made the choice for them with regards to the Super Duty lineup.

The only options for people in my position are to buy used or buy a Ram. That's like having the choice of being blind or being deaf. I loved my Cummins, but buying another Mexican-built truck was out of the question. No amount of inspirational Clint Eastwood commercials was going to sway that decision. One of the reasons I was drawn to Ford was that they still believe in building vehicles in America. Overall, that is equally important to me as a manual transmission. Score one for Ford in that regard.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:55 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I completely agree with Mark Kovalsky on this one regarding the manual option. If Ford could make money at it, there'd be a manual option. They can't, so there isn't. There's always a thread or two on the forums with guys talking about wanting manuals, but the real talking was done by the sales figures.

Comparing the option to have a chrome tow hook to having a manual transmission is pretty ridiculous. One takes about 30 seconds of thought to engineer and $0.05 to add to any truck, the other takes massive R&D money, parts support, and adds complexity to the assembly process.

Also, if you read the fine print on the Ram trucks, you'll see that getting the manual transmission means you're getting a pretty severely detuned version of the Cummins to go with it.

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Old 02-24-2012, 12:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I ordered my 1st Superduty as an XLT because it only oine for an optional manual, same on my '03, then in '05 I ordered a Lariat with same.
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