2008 v-10 price/fuel mileage

[DirtFarmer]

I agree 100%.

I don't give a hoot about stop light to stop light drag racing or sprinting up a hill at redline. Put a stick shift in them and see how they react to hills in any given gear.

The 5.9 cummins has always been the slowest accelerating engine in any modern light truck. It is also arguably the best one for towing heavy loads down the road.

Sounds like some car journalists put together the test. Isn't truck trend the magazine with the pimped trucks and bikini girls on the front cover?

[BobR]

Originally Posted by DirtFarmer

Isn't truck trend the magazine with the pimped trucks and bikini girls on the front cover?

That's it. I'm subscribing to Truck Trend.

[Brian_444]

I have an '02 7.3, but would drive a V-10 in a second. Especially if I were to buy a new truck. After the 6.0 fiasco, I'd be afraid of a 6.4 just yet, and the 3-valve 6.8s put down some impressive numbers for a gas motor.

[Solo2puller]

Originally Posted by LSchicago2

Quote:

Interesting. I just checked KBB.com and using an example of a 05 F250 XL CC 8' bed with 50,000 miles no options except the engines. Retail is $6,565 more on the 6.0 diesel vs. a V10. It might be different in some areas, but here in 60171, you would actually get more money for the diesel option that it originally cost. Now that's resale value! Not trying to bash the V10's but this was brought up. In the V10's defense, they are very reliable, so much more than the 6.0, but resale speaks for itself. LS

Good point LS, and your numbers are spot on. The only problem is you didn't mention the difference the V10 brings over the V8, and you need this to calculate which truck has the higher resale value.

Using your same example in the same zipcode, the V10 brings $835 more than the base V8. Remember tha resale value is different than resale price. The PSD will ALWAYS have a higher resale price, and it should because it cost more up front. The key is what percentage of the initial price does it retain when you sell or trade.

To calculate this you have to have the prices for each engine when they were new. I like to use invoice because it's pretty close to what you should be paying and it also gives you a consistent number that's defined by the manuacturer, not your negotiating skills.

I don't remember exactly, but I think the invoice price for the PSD was about $5800 in 2005 and $510 for the V10. Someone chime in if those numbers aren't correct, but you'll get the idea even if they aren't.

So the PSD brings $6565 more than the V10, and $7400 more than the V8. To calculate the resale value simply divide the current price by the original price ($7400/$5800) to get the percentage return. For the PSD it's 1.27, the V10 1.63 ($835/$510). The V10 retained a larger percentage of it's original price than the PSD - it has much better resale value even though the resale price is much lower. This is a goofy example, though, because options never bring more than you paid for them originally. It's a classic problem with KBB, not a problem with your example. It highlights one of the issues with calculating resale value - getting reliable information about prices. It also shows clearly how most people get sucked into the myth that the PSD always has a higher resale value. They see the sale prices but never do the calculation and assume that's it's retaining more of it's value.

NADA shows both options losing money, as does Edmunds. Running the numbers from those two sources shows the V10 and PSD about the same resale value with NADA and the V10 better with Edmunds. I especially like Edmunds because they seem to have more data about local markets. Not sure how they do it, but their numbers are the most realistic when I look at what trucks sell for here. There's a $6000 swing in the numbers across all three of these online sources, so you know one of them has to be wrong and more likely all three of them are wrong.

Edmunds shows the PSD adding between $1800 and $2500 for LS's zip code, the V10 between $210 and $296 depending on if you look at the trade, private party or retail column. KBB is a flat $7400 and $835 no matter what. I think those are the 2 extremes, and neither one of them is going to be exactly right for every situation.

These are pretty basic examples that don't attempt to capture some of the hidden costs - financing (another $600 @ 6%), time value of money (lost opportunity), maintenance, insurance, etc. Smokewagun - your boss will surely understand this part of the equation. Ask him if he'd be better off putting the extra $5K for the PSD in the business to generate more income, or sink it in a truck that's going to lose $1-$2K of the original $5K? One's a gauranteed loss, the other most likely a gain. That decision was much easier when the PSD was returning much better fuel economy and fuel prices were closer together or the same. (days of the 7.3)

The real problem with resale and why I hesitate to get into it anymore is the number of variables. There's just too many different configurations for these trucks to get a reliable comparison. Add to that the single biggest factor in resale is vehicle condition, and it's virtually impossible to come up with anything concrete. Throw in different geographic regions and the variables are infinite. For you guys who trade often it's definitely something you want to understand completely before you decide to jump in. I keep my trucks too long for it to matter. When I get a new one it doesn't matter if it's powered by gas, diesel or nuclear fission - it's not worth too much because it's so old when I finally get rid of it.

The key to resale is what someone is willing to pay at the time you need to sell. With either motor you can make out like a bandit or get taken to the cleaners. Market conditions, individual preference, gotta have it now attitude - they all play into the calculation and they're impossible to predict.

[DirtFarmer]

I have an '02 7.3, but would drive a V-10 in a second.

I would definitely consider the V10. I like the relative simplicity of today's gas engines compared to the incredible complexity of today's diesels. These days I don't drive my '01 much unless I'm hauling or towing something so I'm not putting enough miles on per year to "justify" a new diesel.

That said, since my truck is now pretty much used 100% of the time for work, I do not want to compromise on its ability to get the job done. A few weeks ago somebody posted a note indicating that he was leaning towards buying a V10 to tow heavy trailers that would have him gross around 30Klbs. If I remember right, he wanted it with the 6spd. I hope he buys it as I'd like to see what he thinks.

Years ago there was a guy named "LongF450" or something like that with an F450 with a 6spd and 4.88 gears. He carried a large cabover camper and pulled a small tandem axle trailer behind for his gear and traveled all over. He grossed about 20Klbs and he said that it did pretty well but he also said that 20K was pretty much the max he'd recommend.

But that was years ago and today's V10's are stronger than ever and today's diesels are more expensive than ever so I'm ready for another LongF450 to come along!

[Solo2puller]

I think LongF450 is still out there, or at least there's someone like him. I can't remember if he's in a 3v motor now or not...

There's not doubt that the PSD is the right tool for some applications. Heavy all the time is a great one. A need (or want) for oodles of power at very high altitudes is another. Sounds like your using yours in a good application too.

During the horsepower/torque wars of the last few years the financial benefits of a diesel have lessened to the point that you've really got to run the numbers unless the money doesn't matter to you.

The rest of the planet is using diesels a lot more than we are. They're not using them like we do though. Much smaller displacements with much better economy instead of cranking them up to huge power numbers. When the emissions issues can be worked out we'll see a ton more of them here, too. I just hope they don't have such a huge impact on the purchase price. I'd love to have one.

[rramsey]

Originally Posted by DirtFarmer

I agree 100%.

I don't give a hoot about stop light to stop light drag racing or sprinting up a hill at redline. Put a stick shift in them and see how they react to hills in any given gear.

The 5.9 cummins has always been the slowest accelerating engine in any modern light truck. It is also arguably the best one for towing heavy loads down the road.

Sounds like some car journalists put together the test. Isn't truck trend the magazine with the pimped trucks and bikini girls on the front cover?

Its Diesel power not truck trend. And it was an outside testing agency that did the comparison, the trucks were tested in all real world conditions, towing and empty. the diesel beat the gas in all but one test that was the empty 30-50mph acceration and it only beat the 6.4 by 1 tenth of a second. My "Slow" Cummins runs a 13.4 in the quarter, I get 21.5 mpg hwy empty 16 mpg towing 12k lb trailer

[rramsey]

You all can drive what you want, the 6.8 is a great motor, I have 19 ford certifications and I have been a ford light and heavy truck mechanic for 13 years, I have owned 6 psd's over the last 8 years none of which ever got less than 16mpg hwy, most got 18-19. I have a problem when idiots claim that their 6.8 can smoke the cummins or the psd and Dmax! Yes the 6.0 had its problems, but face it lady's, THE DIESELS ARE SUPERIOR TO THE GAS MOTORS IN POWER, MILEAGE, AND RESALE! What happens to a diesel when you add power, the mileage goes up. what happens when you throw a vortech or a whipple on a 6.8, you will now get gallons to the mile. lets see how your 6.8 looks at 350k miles. I work on Fords every day and have owned ford trucks for 15 years, I drive a dodge now because in order to drive a full-size as a daily driver and tow my 30ft camp trailer when i want plus haul ass when I want, there is no other choice! The cummins is the superior Diesel hands down. If Ford would sell the F-series with the cummins then we would have the best truck on the planet!!! Your gas hogs are great, But dont make stupid claims that you can smoke the diesels! What psd gets 10mpg???

[DirtFarmer]

Originally Posted by Solo2puller

During the horsepower/torque wars of the last few years the financial benefits of a diesel have lessened to the point that you've really got to run the numbers unless the money doesn't matter to you.

The rest of the planet is using diesels a lot more than we are. They're not using them like we do though. Much smaller displacements with much better economy instead of cranking them up to huge power numbers. When the emissions issues can be worked out we'll see a ton more of them here, too. I just hope they don't have such a huge impact on the purchase price. I'd love to have one.

Agreed! IMO, the HP wars and the EPA are taking the diesels in the wrong direction. With rising fuel prices, I'd like to see more emphasis on mpg and would be happy to see the hp levels roll back to where they were ten or more years ago.

How about a 2L diesel Ranger that gets 25 city/35 hiway?
Or a 3.5L diesel F150 that gets 20/30?
Or a 5L diesel F250 that gets 15/25?

The mpg figures above are certainly possible. But the newest EPA regs are making today's diesels more expensive and with the corked up exhaust systems, less efficient.

Granted, I drive like an old fart and am passed by everybody on the road, but I could be happy with a 200hp truck. Didn't the first cummins powered Dodge pickups have about 150hp? That sounds pretty puny, but given that that 150 hp was probably measured at about 2200rpm, that translates to a healthy torque curve that would fit my driving style just fine.

I'm not holding my breath, but I bet that eventually things will start to swing this direction if/when we start to see fuel prices of four, five or six bucks per gal.

[Pappy19]

Good points. The lower HP diesels with good mileage could increase that crowd and the hop-up crowd could get their kicks from the sponsers. I just don't think that EPA, Clean Air Act and the global warming crowd is ever going to go backwards and the added technology required by the "government" will eventually kill everything but a hydrogen/fuel cell vehicle. Pappy's prediction.

[bosspsd]

This is just an example of what my experiece is with the V10. For two years I owned a 2003 E450 class c motorhome that was 28' long. I pulled a 29' racecar trailer, the combo was right at the GCVW of 24,000 or so on the cat scales. I only bring this up because I absolutley loved this motor, it never complained one bit. On the flats I could get 8mpg and in the wind it was closer to 6mpg. I guess my point here is that towing at the GVW rating with the V10 or as some have said towing heavy is not a V10 strong point I would disagree all day long. My 6.0 in the winter is lucky to get 13mpg and towing 10-11mpg.

Until something major changes with todays modern diesels I know I will not own another one. My next SD will for sure have the V10 and like one other poster said, I too am just tired of the extra costs and reduced reliabilty and high fuel costs.

I however do not have any intention of selling my 06 PSD and will run it for a long time to come. Once I pass my 100k warranty I plan to pull the motor put in ARP's, and eliminate that hole E*G*R system BS. My random 2 cents.

[Solo2puller]

Originally Posted by rramsey

I have a problem when idiots claim that their 6.8 can smoke the cummins or the psd and Dmax!

Originally Posted by rramsey

but face it lady's, THE DIESELS ARE SUPERIOR TO THE GAS MOTORS IN POWER, MILEAGE, AND RESALE!

Nice. LOL. Thanks for proving many of my earlier points and resorting to name calling to make yourself feel better. I love that we can have adult discussions here with the oil burners. Like I said earlier (in a much nicer way) diesel guys get bent out of shape when they're presented with real numbers.

It's OK though, we're used to this kind of fact based input here in the gas section.

Since you've brought it up again.... I'll throw out one more thing, then I'm done. Who here would take a chance on a used 6.0L? One that's out of warranty that you have to buy with your own money. Would you be willing to pay the so-called higher diesel resale? Be honest with yourself when you answer, even if you're not if you post a reply to this. What does that say about diesel resale?

[rramsey]

Originally Posted by Solo2puller

Nice. LOL. Thanks for proving many of my earlier points and resorting to name calling to make yourself feel better. I love that we can have adult discussions here with the oil burners. Like I said earlier (in a much nicer way) diesel guys get bent out of shape when they're presented with real numbers.

It's OK though, we're used to this kind of fact based input here in the gas section.

Since you've brought it up again.... I'll throw out one more thing, then I'm done. Who here would take a chance on a used 6.0L? One that's out of warranty that you have to buy with your own money. Would you be willing to pay the so-called higher diesel resale? Be honest with yourself when you answer, even if you're not if you post a reply to this. What does that say about diesel resale?

I will appologize for any name calling, some peoples ignorance just irritates me. I am a Ford fan and yes the 03-04.5 6.0 is a p.o.s.! as the gm 6.2-6.5. all other diesels built now are just far superior to the gas motor unless you dont tow often or use your truck for a daily driver. If you only do occasional towing and drive less than 10k a year then yes the gasser would be a option. We all know the diesels out pull the gassers and are more efficient so dont make claims that your V-10 out pulled a diesel and gets better mileage, unless it makes you feel better than ok. I would argue this even if I drove a gasser, In 2001 Ford sold more diesel power f-series trucks than doge and gm combined! Diesel pickups sell 2-1 over gassers so you cant tell me the whole public is wrong.We out here use our trucks, so the most economical engine is the diesel. Try making your own gas for .75
a gallon.

[BobR]

Originally Posted by DirtFarmer

Agreed! IMO, the HP wars and the EPA are taking the diesels in the wrong direction. With rising fuel prices, I'd like to see more emphasis on mpg and would be happy to see the hp levels roll back to where they were ten or more years ago.

How about a 2L diesel Ranger that gets 25 city/35 hiway?
Or a 3.5L diesel F150 that gets 20/30?
Or a 5L diesel F250 that gets 15/25?

The mpg figures above are certainly possible. But the newest EPA regs are making today's diesels more expensive and with the corked up exhaust systems, less efficient.

Granted, I drive like an old fart and am passed by everybody on the road, but I could be happy with a 200hp truck. Didn't the first cummins powered Dodge pickups have about 150hp? That sounds pretty puny, but given that that 150 hp was probably measured at about 2200rpm, that translates to a healthy torque curve that would fit my driving style just fine.

I'm not holding my breath, but I bet that eventually things will start to swing this direction if/when we start to see fuel prices of four, five or six bucks per gal.

You're not gonna be the first up any hills grossing your 30000 pounds with 200hp.

[AggiePSD]

Originally Posted by BobR

You're not gonna be the first up any hills grossing your 30000 pounds with 200hp.

So? Say he's the last up the hills, that will put him 10 minutes behind the first guy. In the grand scheme of things, 10 minutes is nothing. Well maybe money in your pocket because of the fuel you saved.