Fords new gas motors - Diesel Forum

cmnzpower · 03-30-2002, 04:02 PM

When is ford going to up the ante on gm? Think about it they have the 5.3?,6.0,and the 8.1. Ford has the 4.6,gutless had 2 the 5.4 gutless and terrible milage,shouldnt even be offered in a 3/4 ton and up and the v-10 that gets horrible mileage towing. Then theres dodge only thing they have is the cummins,but my question is when is ford going to update and bring something out that has the 300 and 350 hp range? Should bring out a new version of the 460 that would be a freakin motor not the crap they offer now.

Ben99GT · 03-30-2002, 04:23 PM

*** are you talking about? The 4.6L matches up against Chevy's 4.8L, despite Chevy's exaggerated horsepower claims they make similar power. Ford's 5.4L competes with Chevy's 5.3L. Once again Chevy has overoptimisic horsepower numbers it can't back up on the dyno and less torque at a higher rpm than the 5.4L. Most 260 hp 5.4Ls make 215 - 220 rwhp which is slightly more than the 290 horsepower 5.3Ls put down. The 6.8L V10 is surpisingly close in performance to the 8.1L Chevy and is actually faster unloaded in CC DRW 4x4 trim. BTW, the V10 gets WAY better mileage empty AND loaded than the 8.1L. Do some research, you'll see. I'm not impressed in the least with the Vortec lineup, with the exception of the 6.0L. It performs well and Ford has no counterpart for it. Maybe it's time to give the 5.4L a 3.7" bore. As far as upping the ante, Ford will be introducing new SOHC 3-valve per cylinder heads for the 4.6 and 5.4 in the next year or so. The 3V 5.4L is supposed to make 325 hp and 380 ft.-lbs. The following year the V10 will probably get the 3-valve setup and make roughly 360 - 370 horsepower and 450 - 460 ft.-lbs. You say the V10 gets horrible mileage and yet you want to bring the 460 back? What kind of logic is that, bring back a bigger less efficient engine to replace the V10? I don't think so...

cmnzpower · 03-30-2002, 04:38 PM

ben99gt, I meant a 460 that is up to todays technology and I understand the v-10 gets about the same milage as the 8.1, but Im a ford man all the way and the 8.1 out does the v-10 empty,I drove both.Then the 5.4 in a 3/4 ton please we pulled 4 snowmobiles with it an got 7 miles to the gallon? And couldnt hold speed on hills at all. You think the 6.0 liter is a good motor,maybe empty but load it down,lots of hp but no torque and gets 12-15 empty,my brother has one and it couldn't pull our trailer worth a shi_! But Ford is behind right know look at sales numbers,they get ahead and then sit back keep the power coming we want a gasser with 375 hp 500ftlbs that gets 16 empty 12 towing!! Im really a deisel guy but nothing beats the old 460, Out pulls that v-10 buy a mile.

f250hd22 · 03-30-2002, 04:50 PM

I have to agree with *** are you talking about. The 4.6 is not a gutless engine by any means. It has more horse power than chevy's 350 had until it got vortech'd in 95. I guess you could call it gutless if you threw on a 28 foot trailer and wanted to run hills at 70 mph. For the purpose of the 4.6 its a great engine with respectable mileage. The 5.4 is great in the F-150 because it weighs less than the Super Duty's. I wouldn't buy the 5.4 in the Super Duty if I was going to pull anything over 4000. The V-10 is over 300 horse, 310 to be exact. As far as the 460 being a better motor.....not so far. I had a 460 that got 7.7 mpg in the city and 12 on the highway and about 8-9 towing. Longevity, yes the 460 was a great engine. My V-10 runs circles around the 460, and its wat more efficiant. I have owned a Power Stroke too, and for my needs I like the V-10 much better. I have yet to see with what I tow where the PSD was better, except mileage. But with diesel at 1.45 and gas at 1.33 thats why I bought a gasser. I do a lot of short trips 5mi or less to work and thats rough on a diesel. Theres one thing you have to remember about chevy, there really fast un-loaded, but put something on the back of them, they squat like a puppy and go from fast to gutless real quick. Chevy engineers are pretty generous with the hp/tq ratings. Rick

Ben99GT · 03-30-2002, 04:53 PM

Did you do full instrumented tests to come to the conclusion the 8.1L was faster or just the SOTP-o-meter? Seat of the pants is not accurate by a long shot, especially since the Allison's first is so much shorter than the 4R100s first, so the 8.1L should "feel" faster. As far as mileage; the V10 gets BETTER mileage (to the tune of 2-5 mpg) than the 8.1L, not the same. A 230 horsepower 380 ft.-lb. 460 is NOT going to outpull the 310 horsepower 425 ft.-lb. V10, sorry. You line up a 460 and a V10, hook 7,000 pounds to the back of each one and see which one gets to the top of the mountain first. Seat of the pants and subjective comparisons be damned, simply put the V10 will murder it.

sloans4x4 · 03-30-2002, 06:52 PM

You can see from my sig. that I have one of those gutless 5.4s in a Superduty that you mentioned before. Yet mine don't seem to be so gutless!!!!
And by looking at your user name, you wouldn't really have a clue anyway! I mean, you probably think the cummings is better than a Stroke? Why don't you take your negative attitude back to the Dodge boards!!!

And yes I do know what I'm talking about. I drive all configurations all day long, EVERYDAY!!! Yes the 5.4 won't pull 10,000 lbs. 80mph up hills both ways and get 20mpg doing it, but neither of the other brands will either!! As for the v10, I'll put one up against an equivilantly equipped whatever whenever you'd like!!! And the Stoke, well we ALL know it is the [censored]!! Nuff Said.

Shane

f250hd22 · 03-30-2002, 07:43 PM

Very well said. Its hard to say 260/350 hp/tq figures a gutless engine. I've driven a few 5.4's and thought it had a good low end grunt. The problem I see is that the people who drive 'em, don't run them at the right RPM for pulling hills. It took me a few hills to figure out where to run my V-10 compared to my PSD. Since the 5.4 is such a "crappy" engine I wonder why it's gotten the best engine award since it inception? Oh, thats right, it's an awesome engine. Rick

Manx · 03-31-2002, 10:59 AM

I think Gutless 5.4 and shouln't even be offered in a 3/4 ton truck
is alittle harsh there,
The one in my truck get's the job done
I remember when a in-line 6 was offered in allot of 3/4 trucks
It's all a matter of choice
I guess the grass is always greener on the other side

cmnzpower · 03-31-2002, 11:52 AM

Hey guys I didnt mean to start a fight,Just seems Gm is outselling everyone, and its because they offer 300 and a 345 hp motor. I am a die hard ford man,and the crack go back to the dodge board,well Im not a dodge man,just like the cummins for the inline 6. we have 3 psd's Ive owend 300 six,2-390's,1-400,2-460's,2-4.6's,and a 5.4. Never had a v-10,and of all the motors the 460's were the best. And I dont care what you say I didnt say that the ford motors were junk,I said the 4.6 was guttless, and the 5.4 hunted for gears pulling empty trailers. Im a die hard pumped diesel guy, but would like to see the old 460 redone with 32 valves new technology and turn 350-375 hp with a [censored] load of torque,that would shut the chevy group up.Not trying to flame the gassers,so dont get riled up,I bleed Ford red.

sloans4x4 · 03-31-2002, 01:06 PM

On that note I don't think Chevy is selling due to their motors. I think it is the new body style on the HD. The 8100 does run good. I've drove and worked on a couple. But the v10 still runs better with alot less cubes. A good friend has an '01 with the 6.0L and it doesn't run as good as my 5.4L. His(ext. cab shirt bed 4x4 stock lift w/ 33" muds) Mine (see sig.) And they get the same mpg. Yes his truck looks kicka$$, But not as good as mineLOL!!!!!!!!!! I wouldn't go bragging too much about the chevy's running all that better if I were you.

Manx · 03-31-2002, 01:46 PM

Cmnzpower,
I can see what your talking about
But here's why I think that will never happen
The 5.4 and V-10 are a Moduler Motor (they share allot of parts and
design for future updates)
There coming out with a 3 valve head that's going to bump up the HP
the 5.4 will have 300+ and the V-10 will be even better yet
Most SD trucks are ordered with the Diesel (75% I think)
So there is really no market for a new updated 460.
The cost for devopling it and buliding would be over 100 million alone
It wouldn't get better gas mileage then a V-10 and it wouldn't pull
any better the the Diesel.
The G2 diesel is coming out next with a new 5 speed auto also.
If they did any thing, the cheapest thing would be a super charged
V-10 they have aready done this on the 5.4 so the technolagy is there
It all depends if Ford thinks that there is a market for it
I myself don't see it

jstrauss · 04-01-2002, 02:09 PM

Ford RED? I can't believe you said you bleed Ford RED. It's Ford BLUE. There hasn't even been a Ford "red" since 1964 and that was just to paint engines. If Ford is associated with any one color, it is BLUE. And not because they used to paint the engines that color, it's because that's the color inside the BLUE OVAL.

Hey, I think the old 460 is the bee's knees too but the V10 is stronger. It should be, it has a longer stroke than any Ford V8 ever, except the 5.4L V8 which has the same stroke. Given the sales of the PSD and the mere existence of the V10, no way Ford can cost justify the updated version of the 460 that you want.

By the way, Chevy does NOT outsell Ford in trucks. They are gaining, but Ford still leads. Just saw the Jan-Feb numbers last Friday.

camperguy · 04-01-2002, 02:16 PM

I traded my '92 F250 4x4 with the 460 for a 2001 F350 4x4 V10. I load it with a Hallmark 9.5' camper and tow a 2001 Explorer. Probably about 14,000 pounds total. After several trips over the mountains here in Colorado I've concluded that the two trucks are virtual clones in power and mileage. The V10 gets almost the same mileage (8.9 mpg) but maybe takes the tunnel 3-5 mph faster. Without towing the Explorer I get between 9.5 and 10 mpg. These numbers are for the complete round trip usually about 1,100 miles. I have the 4.30 gears and even with that I have difficulty keeping it in OD with just the camper load. Both trucks run excellently and perform well. The '01 does drive nice and I like it a lot. But...I wish it had a few more b*!#s for the hills.

monsta · 04-01-2002, 05:32 PM

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

By the way, Chevy does NOT outsell Ford in trucks. They are gaining, but Ford still leads. Just saw the Jan-Feb numbers last Friday.

<hr></blockquote>

Few questions in reference to this statement.

1. Where did you get the numbers from?

2. Is that just Chevy? Or is it Chevy & GMC combined (all of GM)?

3. Are you talking about 3/4 ton and up trucks or ALL trucks?

I've always been under the impression that 1/2 ton GM (Chevy & GMC combined) trucks outsell Fords. But with each "brand" standing on it's own, Ford rules the 1/2 ton market.

I've always figured that Ford stomps the competition (what little exists) with the Super Duty series. It'd be nice to have facts behind my thinking.

So, those sales numbers would be a cool thing for me to check out. Thanks in advance!

V10 man · 04-02-2002, 02:29 AM

here is a quick link: http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/otf0999.html