Gas owners - Duramax vs PSD? - Diesel Forum

DirtFarmer · 12-08-2001, 08:34 AM

In the never ending gas vs diesel debates, I frequently read comments from gas owners that the PSD is too slow, too loud, too smelly. The V10 has advantages over the PSD in these areas.

It hit me that the Duramax and, according to the rumor mill, the new G2 PSD will be better in these areas also.

So, assuming that what I've read is true - that the Duramax is quieter and will out accelerate a stock PSD, but requires higher rpm to do so, I'm wondering:

If you had your choice, would you pick a Duramax over the current PSD (assuming you could get either in a Ford SD)?

Will you be more willing to consider a diesel when Ford starts shipping the smaller, quieter, higher reving, but faster accelerating G2?

Batoutahell · 12-08-2001, 08:54 AM

I would say the new G2 psd's would probably fit the bill a little better. I just brought home my F250 CC V10 4X4 last night and I test drove the diesel and the gas just felt better and fit my budget much better.

As for the duramax, I think it is a good engine, I have not driven one, but the overall gm quality has let me down in the past. I drove an 8.1/allison 2500 the other day and was not impressed. The overall power is better than the V10, but the quality sucked. It surged and the allison seamed to hunt for gears. Also, the cab is much smaller. The numbers show a little difference, but when I got myself in the back seat of the crew cab it was much smaller and uncomfortable.

It just did not compare to the Ford. I am not even close to brand loyal. In fact I used to call myself a chevy man. But a person can only take so much and to pay more for a lesser quality just does not make sense.

Sorry to ramble, I guess the newer diesel's would be an option, but I reallly like the V10.

Bat

MarkO-Indy · 12-08-2001, 10:49 AM

I drove the Duramax before I ordered my PSD. It was definately quieter. It is hard to judge a lot about from a short drive, but I was not impressed. I am not brand loyal either. I have had an equal amount of Chevy and Ford products, more than a half dozen of each over the last 20 years, a few time having both at the same time. I ordered a 99 E-350 Service Van with the PSD and a new 99 3500HD with the 6.5 Turbo, within months of each other. The Chevy is on it's 3rd turbo and 2nd pump. It has been on the hook several times, leaving us stranded more than once. The Ford has been in the shop once for a pinion seal and once for alignment. Both trucks have 90,000 on them.

This may or may not be a far accessment, depending on which side of the fence your on, but if your side of the fence is the one with the checkbook, the Ford is the better of the two by a far cry. Of course the next two vehicles could be the opposite. I always kind of believe in the luck of the draw. Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes they get you!

Case in point was a '92 Astro Service van I bought new...235,000 miles in 6 years...always loaded heavy with tools, etc. Never let me down, never left me stranded, close once with a bad alternator and I had read end bearing go bad, but that's it. I sold to a friend and he's still my friend....that says something right there. He put 40,000+ on it and sold it, they put another 35,000 and the first guys is buying it back! with over 300,000 the 4.3 liter V-6 motor and auto-trans have never been touched and still work just fine! changed the motor oil @ 2500 miles and the trans @ 40,000 regularly.

I do however like the convenience of the gas motor, if that's all you need..in a regular trnasportation sense.

Sorry to drag on...after all that, I'll still take my PSD Ford.

Mark

outpost22 · 12-08-2001, 11:48 AM

I also drove the DMAX and the PSD prior to my purchase of the V10. First let me say I was driving a '95 GMC pickup during all of these comparisons so I didn't have a Ford "bias".
Here are my humble opinions:

DMAX: was smaller inside the cab than Ford and lower to the ground, which is NOT what I want in a 4x4, and the interior looked "chinsy" to me. The body style was less "aggressive" than the SuperDuty and less appealing to me. After all the marketing hype, I thought it would have tons of power, but when I drove it, I thought it felt a little flat. I don't like noisy trucks though and really appreciated the "less noise" aspect of the DMAX. The engine and transmission weren't a proven design, and I hate to be a guinea pig for the auto manufacturers. To top it off the dealers (2) in this area weren't letting them off their lots for under $42,000 [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] . Lastly, they didn't have a 1 ton without a Dually.

PSD: I liked the PSD, and have several friends and relatives with them. But, with my low mileage trips, limited miles annually, and packing only 3,000+ pounds around (camper), it was hard to justify the diesel. Also, the diesel engine cut down on my payload with its extra weight. Lastly, my wife said that she didn't want to sound like a "tractor" going down the road and that we already had enough tractors [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] If I do take extended trips in 3-4 years, I do plan to buy an F-450 with a diesel. I believe it would then be the correct option for me.

V10: This engine and truck configuration fit my situation best and is a proven engine. It is quiet, didn't cost a lot to buy (relative to the above 2) and maintain, is fine for short trips, and has plenty of power to haul the camper around. Gas mileage is 11.0 city and 14 highway, and with all things being equal (and not towing 5'ers) it would take a lot of driving with a PSD to close this $ gap for me.
These are only my humble rambling opinions [img]graemlins/smokin.gif[/img]

Homegrown · 12-08-2001, 05:13 PM

I've got an unfair advantage biasing my opinion - I was called in to the Dmax plant as a consultant to look at some of the problems they're facing. Having worked in automotive plants of all types for the past 20+ years, I kept my eyes open for certain tell-tale signs. Here's the problems I witnessed:
Excessive failures upon inspection from the various machining lines (mostly cranks and conn. rods).
Excessive turn-over rate of employees (third generation of workers in only two years of operation).
99% of engineering and most of the machinery maintenance departments are non-english speaking (I'm guessing manufacturing and engineering must rely on an interpreter?).
Every piece of machinery I saw was of Japanese origin, meaning someone from the motherland is charged with keeping it running (with parts from the motherland).
Any failed unit operation (such as a bolt being tightened to spec) is hand-marked with a marker and pulled off of the line at a later station. Then it's up to a person to properly finish the job. Most factories these days work on a quality control system that fixes the problem before ever letting the part go any further down the line. Three consecutive rejects in a station will shut the line down until the underlying problem is resolved.
To sum it up; I don't know much about diesel engines, but it appears to me that the plant is so far behind their production schedule, that the engines quality may be getting sacrificed.

In case my choice hasn't become obvious by now - the PSD would be a hands-down winner. But I don't like the noise or smell of diesels, and at only 10K miles per year, I'm hardly the perfect candidate for one. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Manx · 12-08-2001, 08:05 PM

I bought the truck as a upgrade from a F150
planed on plowing this year
and the gasser will handle the plow weight better
and I don't tow more then 5k twice a year
and I do like that the truck is quite
and I didn't have a extra 4,700
If I towed allot of weight every day the psd
would be the way to go
the Duramax and Allison is very interesting
to say the least but it is un-proven
I bought the best truck for me
I didn't even think if it would impress someone
else, and it's a perfect fit

spoon · 12-09-2001, 12:18 AM

I was lucky enough to drive a 2000 PSD and V10 for a week each before choosing to order the (2001) V10.

The 5 factors in my decision NOT to buy the PSD:

1. Noise

2. $3900 motor upcharge.

3. Stink

4. Weight (the front-end handles quite diferently in slippery conditions with the PSD up front).

5. Testimony of PSD owners I personally know that stated they would buy the v10 next time, because of reasons 1 and 2 above.

That being said, if Ford doesn't get too greedy with the lighter, quieter, more efficient G2 PSD, I'll consider it for my next truck.

Gettin' 12.5 city 14 highway mpg on $1.07 fuel. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

rdlV10 · 12-09-2001, 11:50 PM

I wouldn't pick either.Unless they are giving them away free.I like what i got. [img]images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Black Beauty · 12-10-2001, 08:48 PM

Interesting post Homegrown. Sort of backs up what I've been hearing from the guys at Flint Truck Assembly (GM's HD assembly plant). For example, a couple of buddies were coming back from Detroit on Saturday (12-8-01) in their new Chevy HD crew cab (less than 6000 miles) when the HEATER CORE blows up. Coolant was sprayed on the inside of the windshield and on the windows in the front doors. Another gentleman (who works in the GM Metal Fab plant opposite the HD truck ass'y plant) has been through two Allison trannies (so far). The Allison is a required option behind the D'max. The Powerstroke/4R100 in contrast, is a tested and proven power module. For myself, I'll still take the "10".

Black Beauty · 12-11-2001, 06:28 PM

Machine controls. Electrical, hydraulic, and pneumatic.

RedV10 · 12-11-2001, 06:44 PM

I'll go ahead and add my thoughts as well. I wouldn't have taken a diesel at the same price as my V-10. The diesel is more of a hassle maintenance-wise, diesel fuel stinks, and I don't like the mushy-pedal feel of a diesel. I don't like the noise either, but that's only one small factor, and so even if it were as quiet as a gasser, I'm still not interested, and especially not at a $4000 premium!

That said, my understanding is that the Duramax engine is made by Isuzu. I've never met anyone who owned a truck made by Isuzu who didn't love it. I just sold my 1990 Isuzu pickup that I drove for 9 years when I bought my F-250. It was the most dependable vehicle I've ever owned. Isuzu is also the largest (and I believe oldest) manufacturer of commercial trucks in Japan. In my eyes, the fact that it is an Isuzu engine is certainly a positive. However, Homegrown's post makes it apparent that these engines aren't being made in an Isuzu plant (indeed, I just found on the web that they are made in Flint, MI). So, maybe I should retract my earlier opinion.

Regardless, until diesels are cheaper, smell better, have lower maintenance costs, and are as quiet as a gas engine, *OR* until I have a towing need that doesn't suit my V-10, I'll be leaving the diesels on the lot.

Homegrown · 12-12-2001, 12:34 AM

Black Beauty - just curious, machine controls or process controls?
[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Homegrown · 12-13-2001, 12:30 AM

Black Beauty - allright! another machine controls guy, I knew I liked this site for a reason.

RedV10 - don't know where the Flint, MI info came from, but the folks at the Dayton, Ohio DMax plant tell me all of 'em are built there.

wingtime · 12-14-2001, 11:44 AM

Ok here it goes.

Gas Verses Diesel.

GAS:
I had a 96 F-250 with the 351. Drove it for five years and put 90,000 miles on it. Loved it. Drove great. Had no problems with it and it never let me down. Gas milage was lousy but hey it was a big Truck. Test drove both gas powered superduty trucks and liked them both (V-8 & V-10). V-10 has a good towing capicty was prety quick for a big truck. However gas trucks won't go 350,000 miles.

Diesel:
I decided that if I was going to get a new truck I had to upgrade. To me any big truck should be diesel. Without a doubt the PSD is noisy outside the truck. But inside the cab going down the highway it is actually quieter than my gas powered truck was. All you hear is a little turbo whistle (cool). Milage is a tad better, but when you figure in extra cost of the PSD option you'll have to drive it a long time to get your $$ back based on milage. But then again PSD trucks have a higher trade in value. The diesel smell mentioned above is not really a problem. I drive with the windows down quite a bit and I rarely smell it. Somtimes with the A/C in the norm position I might get a wiff diesel exhaust when sitting at a stop light. But I just keep it in the A/C max setting and no smells. As for acelleration. The PSD is surprisingly fast. With a mild chip it's almost to powerful.

Duramax Vs PSD
Duramx sounds good and the prospect of an Allison tranny sounds great too. Yes Isuzu has been making diesels for a long time and they are #1 in Japan. However this is the USA. When was the last time you saw a Isuzu powered Semi? I havn't seen one yet. Navisar vertually owns 50% of the medium-heavy truck market in the US. Why? cause they build a dependable cost effective product at a resoanable price. The PSD is a proven engine with a history of years of use and development in medium trucks. The duramax? it's new and it's being built in a factory with problems. The next time your sitting at a light and a IHC medium truck or school bus pulls up next to you look for a T444E name badge. Guess what? thats a PSD in there! PSD for me, hands down.

To sum it up pick the engine that fits your needs.
The V-10 is a good engine and will serve most buyers needs. The PSD is for the owner who will tow alot, drive a gazillion miles or will keep their truck for a very long time. Just like everything else in this world there is a pro and a con. You just have to pick with you like best.
I love my PSD.

Oh yeah, BTW take a look around at all the light commercial trucks on the road. The majority of them are Fords. I wonder why?

Black Beauty · 12-16-2001, 08:28 AM

The only motor plants here in Flint, MI are the new L6/L5/L4 plant (Trailblazer/Envoy/Bravada) and the old Buick V6 plant (3800, Supercharged 3800). The 3800 plant produces "world class" motors and has a lobby full of awards to prove it. I don't see too many awards coming for the Isuzu motor, only lawsuits.