V-10 vs 6.4

[Pappy19]

I was hauling an empty 4-wheeler trailer and was at a stop light on Hwy 89 here in Layton, Utah when a new 6.4 pulled up beside me. At the green light he stomped it and so did I. The speed limit on this highway is 65 and even with my trailer in tow, we were side-by-side all the way to 65. I just wonder if I didn't have my little trailer hooked on, if I would have had the lead.

[Smokewagun]

No, you wouldn't have had the lead because then, I would have put mine to the floor and dusted you. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif[/img] Just kidding. I actually test drove a vew V-10 the other night and it was smooooth and quiet. After about 15 miles of driving, the best the lie-o-meter could generate was 11.4. Scary. I really considered a V-10, but now I am hearing the major reason the 6.4L gets worse economy is with those who drive less highway and regenerate more often. I drive a lot of highway, so think regenerations will be less - hopefully increasing economy. I am still scared of the V-10 resale when I trade yearly at 50,000 miles. I know it's a great engine an all, but the stigma that follows it in terms of "Gas Hog" just makes it hard to digest. For the 15,000 mile a year driver, I suppose it's fine. I look at the $5800 savings v-10 vs. gas) will go out the V-10 tailpipe, and once it's gone, it's gone. KBB shows the smoker returning $6300 on a diesel I pay $6100 (invoice) for at trade time. In well over 300K+ miles of driving diesels, I have yet to see all this extra maintenance everybody talks about.

Anyway, I loved the quietness and how smooth the V-10 was. I still may consider one if someone can push me over the fence with some real figures t pass along to the boss. Pappy, that is one sweet rig you got there!

[Pappy19]

Smokewagon-

Thanks for the compliments on my rig. I think the best reason for the V-10 being right up there with the 6.4 is no turbo lag whatsoever(even with the double turbo on the 6.4, there is some lag) and the gasser HP is high enough to show off it's power. I know that mileage is a factor with alot of folks, but I am averaging about 11.5 if I don't have to use my 4 wheel drive. I still figure I can buy alot of gas for the extra $6,000+ you pay for the diesel engine, not to mention the difference in fuel costs. What does it cost you to do an oil/filter change and throw ina fuel filter change? At the stealership, they charge me $28 for the oil change and I don't need a fuel filter change until I hit 50k and then it's $6.00. Probably the only real down side to the V-10 for me is I am not supposed to wash the engine compartment ever. That's a bummer for me as I was anal on my 7.3 to keep it spotless inside and out. Mechanics say that the reason is the coil over sparkplug doesn't like water.

[Smokewagun]

I'd have no problem with the V-10, but because I drive a company truck, the boss just doesn't want any part of the V-10 because of the black cloud over it's head. I look forward to the future changing that. As for oil changes, I do my own, and the last time I checked, I spend about $250 more than a gasser because I do it myself. The fuel filters last time cost me about $60 to have them changed. Oh, and the washing the engine... I'd probably die. I am too anal about that stuff, too.

[Solo2puller]

smokewagun, smokewagun, smokewagun. When will you see the light and move over the quiet side... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] Here's some numbers:


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokewagun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I drive a lot of highway, so think regenerations will be less - hopefully increasing economy.</div></div>
This is a great reason to get a V10, too. If you do a lot of highway driving your mpg w/the V10 will be close to 14. I've seen over 16 with mine on an all highway trip. I'm giving you 2mpg here for 4WD (mine is 2WD), but I'll bet the difference isn't that much. On the flip side, you should easily get 16 with the PSD too, maybe 17, possibly 18, but 17 mpg posts from the 6.4 crowd are few and far between.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokewagun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am still scared of the V-10 resale when I trade yearly at 50,000 miles. </div></div> Remember that if a salesperson is telling you he won't touch a V10 on a trade he stands to make a lot more on the sale to you if he puts you in a PSD. I doubt it's anywhere near as bad a you've described (other threads). I don't doubt for a second they told you that, but remember their motivation. Besides, if it really is as bad as they're telling you I've already given you the solution to this. It's a non-issue if you forget about the dealer when you sell it. A bit more hassle - probably. A bigger net gain - absolutely.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokewagun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I look at the $5800 savings v-10 vs. gas) will go out the V-10 tailpipe, and once it's gone, it's gone. </div></div>
You won't be anywhere close to burning up the savings in 50K miles. At today's fuel prices you'll need 165K miles to burn up $5800 with a V10 getting 12 and a PSD getting 16mpg. (using $2.89/$3.49 per gallon) 102K miles at 11 vs 16, and 69K at 10 vs 16. Now I don't believe for a second that you'll avg 10 with the type of driving you do, but I'm trying to help you out with your decision... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img] If you post or PM me fuel prices where you are I'll put together a chart for you so you can see the breakeven points with tons of different mpg numbers.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokewagun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
KBB shows the smoker returning $6300 on a diesel I pay $6100 (invoice) for at trade time.</div></div> Good luck getting it. I told you the secret here - set up an XPlan deal without a trade, then add it right before you sign. You'll find out what they're really giving you for your diesel. I've demonstrated many times how the PSD has worse resale value than the V10. (that's a separate thread, btw. Don't confuse resale price with resale value...) I don't have a lot of experience trading quickly - my last truck was 13 years old when I sold it - so there may be something to this that I'm missing. If you're trading that quickly you're giving up one of the biggest reasons to own a diesel - longevity. Or at least that's what I hear on TDS.com... [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokewagun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In well over 300K+ miles of driving diesels, I have yet to see all this extra maintenance everybody talks about.
</div></div>
That's because you're trading before you need to do any maintenance! That wouldn't change no matter which motor you choose.

You don't really want a V10. You want a diesel, and that's cool. It's extra cool because you can get somebody else to pay for it. For the way you've described how you use your truck you should be in a car. If you need the truck for hauling heavy stuff once in a while, you should be in a 5.4 Super Duty and live with a smidgeon slower towing for the occasions that you do pull something.

If I was buying on someone else's nickel I'd try a PSD too. I really wanted one when I bought mine but I just couldn't justify it when I ran the numbers. Back then fuel prices were a lot closer together, but the mpg spread was much higher with the 7.4. The 6.0 was an unknown. Because fuel costs per gallon were lower, the difference between the two was a higher percentage of the total fuel bill, so the math worked out about the same. Nowadays the difference between the two isn't as big of a deal becuase the basis is so much higher (nearly double from '02/'03!), but the mpg numbers are much closer together, too.

[dnewton3]

I'm a man, but I'm also an honest man. I bought a diesel because I wanted one, not because I needed one. I use my truck to pull a travel trailer a few times in the summer. I love the diesel mystice, and smell, and manliness!

But ..

I can't "justify" one. At the most, I drive 10k miles a year in it. And only 1/2 of that is towing. I should have bought a V-10 and saved a huge load of money. I did the cost averaging and it will take me around 12 years just to break even, based on fuel and maintenance costs, and my yearly mileage.

If you tow heavy loads all the time (for work or play), then the peace of mind that comes with diesel performance is worth it probably. But for the occasional user, a V-10 will do just fine. Heck, with 360hp and 460ft-lb of torque, the new V-10 has MORE power and AS MUCH torque as diesels did just a few years ago. It's WAY quiter, and there is just no maintenance to speak of on a V-10. When was the last time a V-10 went into REGEN???

There's nothing wrong with "wanting" a diesel, but make sure you understand the difference between want's and needs.

If I had to do it over, I very likely would have chosen the V-10. The only reason I didn't at the time, was that I wanted a bare bones XL with only "manly" options such as 4x4, rubber floor, manual xfer case, manual tranny, manual windows, etc. I wanted a true old-style work truck. They just don't exist on the lot (at least in my market area). I justified the diesel/automatic because it was the only "stripped down" truck I could find, and I got a left-over '06 with a fat rebate, rather than an '07. I should have just ordered a V-10 the way I wanted it.

[Smokewagun]

Solo, thanks for your hard work trying to win me over.

We had a 2003 Excursion, and 16mpg was not as uncommon as one would think. We could get it regularly on all interstate driving when we'd travel to Pigeon Forge. Cruise set with air on an go. It was around town when it tanked, and add winter and about 12 was the norm. In a tizzy, I worried we'd get stuck with a gas guzzler that was discontinued and we'd have to eat it, so I bailed on it in 2005. What a mistake. My second in vehicle trading.

I gather I could see an average of about 14mpg with my driving a V-10, too, but as for the PSD, well, I'll be guessing about 15-16 at best. That looks to be the exception, not the rule. Certainly not any advantage with the diesel there.

I guess I should rephrase it.. The BOSS is scared of the V-10 resale... especially with trading yearly at 50,000 miles.
I'm not sure how much more the salesperson is making on the sale of the PSD over the V-10 when I always buy under the invoice. So far, the loss I could expect with a V-10 is unknown as no dealer can really give the "hit" I can expect to take. It's all heresay. I doubt, too, it's anywhere near as bad a I've described in other threads, but it could be a large "oops" to find out the hard way I'm not sure the boss wants to be the gineau pig. Selling it outright is a pain, but with my PSD's they have always sold themselves. This current 2007 is the first I have not had someone waiting in line for. I've have, however, never been approached by someone wishing my trucks were V-10's to buy. Maybe this year's market will change that.

For some reason, I still see the $5800 savings of the V-10 going out the tailpipe. Once it's gone, it is gone. Looking at the diesel option adder in KBB or NADA still shows a return for the diesel option that exceeds that of the cost I paid for it. The V-10 doesn't add anything, I think. Couple that with the overall total vehicle value listed, I have never had any problem (to date) trading or selling for more than the indicated NADA or KBB price, so why wouldn't I be getting that money back? I really don't think I will make any better than what I am at right now for purchasing - the XPlan deal is still a few hundred more than where I've been bringing my deals in so far.

I agree that I am "giving up one of the biggest reasons to own a diesel - longevity", but up to the last time I traded (May 2007), the diesel still held a substantial advantage in terms of value when compared to it's gas counterpart. That could very well be gone. We'll see in a few months.

As for the maintenance of a diesel, I agree that I am trading before I need to do any maintenance.

I actually wouldn't mind a V10. The one I drove last Thursday was sweet. I may want a diesel, but that's not set in stone, either. It is cool that I can get somebody else to pay for it. I agree that I should be in a car, but hey, I offered that to my boss, and he disagrees. He is great. I though a V-10 could actually save some money in the long run, but he wants no part of it... now at least. I'll wait and order what I want in March, and then we'll see how he feels then.

Yes, I do haul on many weekends, and frankly, the 5.4L in a Crewcab Superduty is a waste. I'd cuss myself silly dragging my 28 foot travel trailer north for the dozen weekends a year, not to mention those weekend loaded with the quads, too.

Again, Solo, thank you for all the input. I think you are right on... in fact, I think we both agree on many parts. Unfortunately/fortunately, the boss disagrees with us both, and his nickle prevails. Like I said, I've tried to save him some lettuce with the F-150 again (especially since the recently unveiled 2009 is so sweet), or the gas Superduty, but he's more confortable with the diesel. Alot can change in two months. We'll see... and I'm sure you and I will be talking. Thanks again.

Smoke

[rws444psd]

no v10 for me yet, i pass those things every summer goinn over the passess around here, every time i follow 1 one the flats they do ok but any hill climbs i figure it must be a gasser and i pull right on by. mabye with a few mods on them they will be better. this is pullinn my 8000 pound trailer, most v10s around here dont pull heavy loads very well. it sounds like their motor just screamminn, that cant be good in the long run?

[Pappy19]

Yes, if you tow heavy, and tow often, then a diesel is for you, no doubt. However, if you tow seldom, tow light, or don't tow much, then forget a diesel, and get a new V-10. With the Torque Shift tranny, this new V-10 is awsome and is no slouch in the power department either.

[bosspsd]

Originally Posted by rws444psd

no v10 for me yet, i pass those things every summer goinn over the passess around here, every time i follow 1 one the flats they do ok but any hill climbs i figure it must be a gasser and i pull right on by. mabye with a few mods on them they will be better. this is pullinn my 8000 pound trailer, most v10s around here dont pull heavy loads very well. it sounds like their motor just screamminn, that cant be good in the long run?

The v10 is modular over head cam motor that loves to rev and will be happy at 3500 rpm all day long. It does take some getting used to especialy if your used to diesels. In my 03 RV I would routinely hold the pedal on the floor for extended periods on hils or in the wind, it would just kick down a gear and plain old pull. My v10 pulled heavy loads very well, with my trailer I was at the the GCWR all the time.

[Slackjaw]

Originally Posted by dnewton3

I can't "justify" one. At the most, I drive 10k miles a year in it. And only 1/2 of that is towing. I should have bought a V-10 and saved a huge load of money. I did the cost averaging and it will take me around 12 years just to break even, based on fuel and maintenance costs, and my yearly mileage.

I did the same thing; bought a diesel and couldn't justify the cost as I mostly use it for hauling a camper and pulling a boat/snowmachine trailer. It only got about 13 mpg towing and in the city, about 17 on the highway, which I don't drive much unless towing. Now I'm lookin' for a V10.

Slackjaw