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Upgrades and Aftermarket - 6.0L Engine Upgrading or adding OEM or aftermarket equipment to your 2003-Up Super Duty or Excursion with 6.0L Power Stroke diesel engine. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 6.0L Power Stroke engine.

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Old 03-02-2013, 03:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Bigger Injectors

I tried searching but have not found any threads on people changing injectors for increased power.
I have looked around several sites and all seem pretty competitive with price and sizes.
Who has put in bigger injectors? What has been your experience? Is standard drivability still there?

I was aiming for 205cc or 225cc and, yes, I know they will require a regulated return fuel system as well as an upgraded HPOP and most likely a new torque converter. Anything else?
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Make sure you start with new (reman) injectors or you will waste your money. I recommend Motorcraft from Tousley Ford as the starting point for modded injectors.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:04 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Proper tuning...including proper transmission tuning.

Get the right tuner from folks that know what larger injector volumes will do to drivability. Without it, driveability and fuel economy issues will abound.

Torque Converter... The best converter can be burned to a crisp with the wrong tuning.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05RedDevil View Post
I tried searching but have not found any threads on people changing injectors for increased power.
I have looked around several sites and all seem pretty competitive with price and sizes.
Who has put in bigger injectors? What has been your experience? Is standard drivability still there?

I was aiming for 205cc or 225cc and, yes, I know they will require a regulated return fuel system as well as an upgraded HPOP and most likely a new torque converter. Anything else?
I'd recommend a ported intake manifold first. All too often people spend the money getting fuel into the motor while forgetting all about the airflow. Our stock manifold is pretty obstructive when talking about airflow. Since injectors and turbos are easy to swap out the manifold should be done first.

You will need to get the tuning worked as well as the fuel system. A TC might be needed but that depends on your end use of the truck. Is it for drags??sled pulls??towing heavy?? All factors to think about.

Don't get sold too quick on one solution. Research as much as you can before spending the cash, it's hard to find people wanting (turbo) or (BIG injectors).

BTW you are in a good area for a quality shop to get you set up right.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HeavyAssault View Post
I'd recommend a ported intake manifold first. All too often people spend the money getting fuel into the motor while forgetting all about the airflow. Our stock manifold is pretty obstructive when talking about airflow. Since injectors and turbos are easy to swap out the manifold should be done first.

You will need to get the tuning worked as well as the fuel system. A TC might be needed but that depends on your end use of the truck. Is it for drags??sled pulls??towing heavy?? All factors to think about.

Don't get sold too quick on one solution. Research as much as you can before spending the cash, it's hard to find people wanting (turbo) or (BIG injectors).

BTW you are in a good area for a quality shop to get you set up right.

Heavy Assualt, I had someone else say the same about going to a ported intake. Do you happen to have any info as to where i could get my hands on one? And after installing would i need to send my tuner in to have it re-worked? Sorry for hijacking thread but glad you brought that up.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:58 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm using a GOGO Diesel Stage 1. There are several others out there but I can't speak for their quality.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Good you mentioned the intake manifold as I saw one on Elite Diesel and even the guy I spoke to said an intake manifold is useful, an aftermarket exhaust manifold is not.
I'll look into GOGO.

I do not plan to do sled pulls or anything like that. I mainly want to be able to surprise people. Hi, my name is Mike and I am a power addict.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 05RedDevil View Post
Good you mentioned the intake manifold as I saw one on Elite Diesel and even the guy I spoke to said an intake manifold is useful, an aftermarket exhaust manifold is not.
I'll look into GOGO.

I do not plan to do sled pulls or anything like that. I mainly want to be able to surprise people. Hi, my name is Mike and I am a power addict.
Hi Mike...we are all addicts here so don't expect a cure anytime soon.
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Your injector size choice is WAY too big. If you want to surprise people a good set of 175s and a bigger turbo will do that with supporting mods. A combo like that will hit 12s in the 1/4 (at least I hope so because its what I just went to, but let me tell you the power is amazing, I have it on good authority it'll pull 12s too).

Anything over 175s and you are going to start to have issues like rougher idle, possible haze at idle, etc. It just isn't worth it for a street truck. Anything over 155s and you need a bigger turbo. A PMax is a good combo with 175s, or you can go bigger but it will likely come with more lag. My truck has no lag, even compared to a hot tune with stock turbo/injectors. Get a good PCM tune and an FICM tune like an Atlas 40 (don't go hotter than that though).

The intake design on these trucks is bad, so I can see an intake making a difference. Ideally it would feed from a central plenum to keep runner length equal, but that's just not possible on the 6.0 due to packaging. Cleaning up the flow path and helping it breath will require less boost to make the same power. Ever wonder why those Cummins guys run 100psi? Check out the intake flow path sometime; its terrible. They have to run that much boost to force the air through that convoluted path, adding heat and loosing efficiency all the way.

Oh, and I'm not a power addict. Addicts got o meetings. I'm perfect just the way I am
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Your injector size choice is WAY too big. If you want to surprise people a good set of 175s and a bigger turbo will do that with supporting mods. A combo like that will hit 12s in the 1/4 (at least I hope so because its what I just went to, but let me tell you the power is amazing, I have it on good authority it'll pull 12s too).

Anything over 175s and you are going to start to have issues like rougher idle, possible haze at idle, etc. It just isn't worth it for a street truck. Anything over 155s and you need a bigger turbo. A PMax is a good combo with 175s, or you can go bigger but it will likely come with more lag. My truck has no lag, even compared to a hot tune with stock turbo/injectors. Get a good PCM tune and an FICM tune like an Atlas 40 (don't go hotter than that though).

The intake design on these trucks is bad, so I can see an intake making a difference. Ideally it would feed from a central plenum to keep runner length equal, but that's just not possible on the 6.0 due to packaging. Cleaning up the flow path and helping it breath will require less boost to make the same power. Ever wonder why those Cummins guys run 100psi? Check out the intake flow path sometime; its terrible. They have to run that much boost to force the air through that convoluted path, adding heat and loosing efficiency all the way.

Oh, and I'm not a power addict. Addicts got o meetings. I'm perfect just the way I am

All right, I'm with yo on the injectors. Too big and you waster money AND fuel.

But yo lost me at intakes and boost numbers.

Yeah, the intake runners are fairly convoluted, but remember, air is going into the engine under pressure. It'll find it's way in. Intake configuration is less critical. If you're making 1000hp and you're looking for 1005hp, the intake and porting work can get you there.

Also, boost pressure is a measure of restriction, not air flow. A bigger intake tract will net lower boost pressure.

We did a Mercury Maruder a little while back. We took the stock engine and supercharged it. It put 425hp on the tires with 10lbs of boost. After he broke it, we built a forged bottom end with a little less compression and ported the heads. We did not change the blower drive in any way. When we re-tuned the car, it made 430hp on the tires with only 7 1/2lbs of boost.

The point is, a bigger hole (lower compression, more chamber volume, larger runners and ports) equals less boost and more airflow. Lower compression let us run an ass-load more timing, thus more power and torque on the tires.

Anyone that has read my posts knows that I say there is no such thing as Over-boost. It doesn't exist. More boost equals more airflow. BUT, bigger intake equals less restriction to air flow. Both of which gets more air into the engine and given the same amount of fuel, EGT goes down.

On an NA engine, intake runner length and configurations make a difference. But with forced induction, the air is getting pushed into the cylinders. Intake configuration is far less important.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I completely agree when you run the same turbo setup on a stock vs ported engine. Its Boyle's Law (pV=k), so as volume increases pressure has to decrease.

However, I was more talking about when you keep the engine setup constant and change the turbo to increase boost because you need more pressure to overcome low flow ability. In that scenario you've held volume constant, so the only way to increase flow is to increase pressure, which will move more air mass in the same amount of time.

We're also going to increase temperature from the added resistance of flowing more air mass in the same time. Adding pressure increases the work being done by the air mass, which increases temperature. So, yes, it will find its way in, but it'll be a lot hotter for it and heat reduces efficiency and increases EGT, getting us to that point where the extra air and fuel is just getting us closer to meltdown.

When you're limited to a stock flow path you can measure the increase in air mass as an increase in boost, so 35psi is going to be less air than 100psi. Once you start reshaping the air path or enlarging it this method of measurement stops being reliable. Boost is easily measured, so its what a lot of people use for reference without realizing that without a common reference point its often just superfluous information.

I think people confuse a lot of turbo terminology as you so aptly pointed out. I think people are using overboost and overspeed interchangeably. Or they're considering compressor surge overboost. A turbo is designed with a max speed in mind, obviously going over that by using nitrous, etc. can shorten the life of the turbo. Its done a lot in racing though, because you can take advantage of the faster spool of a smaller turbo and then just add oxidizer (nitrous) at the top end to keep the air/fuel ratio good. The tradeoff is that the turbo is being oversped, and won't live a long and happy life. Not much does in racing, so its sort of par for the course.
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'06 F250 4x4 - 5" Flo Pro exhaust, SB Filter intake, Accufab elbow, Edge Evolution (monitoring only), SCT w/ ID custom tune, FASS 195 pump, Gillette Diesel EGR cooler delete, Sinister Diesel coolant filter, ELC coolant, updated turbo drain tube/oil feed line/STC fitting/oil cooler, ARPs w/OEM HGs, Elite coolant lines, ITP RR fuel system, Warren Diesel 175cc injectors, Powermax, BD CCV, FICM.com FICM w/ ID tune, Elite UP, BPD water pump - 13.069 @ 101.94

'02 WRX - Outback rear disc swap, EBC green pads, DBA pillar vane rotors, TXS UP/TBE/TMIC, Perrin LW crank pulley, PPG billet steel shift forks, ACT Streetlite flywheel & clutch, K&N filter, STi Group N motor/trans mounts, TiC/Kartboy rear diff mounts/subframe lock bolts/outrigger stiffeners, Kartboy SS & all shifter bushings, custom PDX tune for Cobb AP - went 14.1 on a terrible 60ft before most of these mods; shooting for 13.50s
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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I completely agree when you run the same turbo setup on a stock vs ported engine. Its Boyle's Law (pV=k), so as volume increases pressure has to decrease.

However, I was more talking about when you keep the engine setup constant and change the turbo to increase boost because you need more pressure to overcome low flow ability. In that scenario you've held volume constant, so the only way to increase flow is to increase pressure, which will move more air mass in the same amount of time.

We're also going to increase temperature from the added resistance of flowing more air mass in the same time. Adding pressure increases the work being done by the air mass, which increases temperature. So, yes, it will find its way in, but it'll be a lot hotter for it and heat reduces efficiency and increases EGT, getting us to that point where the extra air and fuel is just getting us closer to meltdown.

When you're limited to a stock flow path you can measure the increase in air mass as an increase in boost, so 35psi is going to be less air than 100psi. Once you start reshaping the air path or enlarging it this method of measurement stops being reliable. Boost is easily measured, so its what a lot of people use for reference without realizing that without a common reference point its often just superfluous information.

I think people confuse a lot of turbo terminology as you so aptly pointed out. I think people are using overboost and overspeed interchangeably. Or they're considering compressor surge overboost. A turbo is designed with a max speed in mind, obviously going over that by using nitrous, etc. can shorten the life of the turbo. Its done a lot in racing though, because you can take advantage of the faster spool of a smaller turbo and then just add oxidizer (nitrous) at the top end to keep the air/fuel ratio good. The tradeoff is that the turbo is being oversped, and won't live a long and happy life. Not much does in racing, so its sort of par for the course.

Well said, Sir.

One additional point that must be made is that IF you have that drag truck that makes 1000hp and you'll pay anything to make 1100hp, then porting and polishing the intake and exhaust ports, and making intake and airflow mods will get that last couple of missing hp that you're seeking. But in stock trim, on a stock truck, in a real world street driving scenario, a better intake isn't gonna blow your socks off. It might resonate at a slightly different load and make a slight hp difference, but it's not gonna make that much difference.

I just chuckle to myself (and sometime out loud) when I see a Banks Ram Air intake elbow or any of the other manufacturers "Performance elbow" installed on trucks. It's like the Tornado that you see adds for on late night TV.

"Give us just $19.95 (plus $15 shipping and handling) and we'll send you the Revolutionary Tornado. It'll add 4mpg and 25hp...Guaranteed!"...

...yeah, right.

Again, well said, Sir.
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