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Upgrades and Aftermarket - 6.0L Engine Upgrading or adding OEM or aftermarket equipment to your 2003-Up Super Duty or Excursion with 6.0L Power Stroke diesel engine. Please confine discussion of topics in this forum to those items that are specific to the 6.0L Power Stroke engine.

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Old 06-01-2006, 11:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Turbo Lag???

I know turbo lag comes up often with the 6.0l, but can someone break it down as to why our trucks have it sooooo bad? What can we do to improve it or better yet get rid of it. Please give a better option then exhaust and air intake because neither one of those did a dang thing for me.
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

I hope you get a good answer that works because I sure need one too.
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:21 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

Hey i agree with fullservice,ya i no i should plan my buisness better when i pull out in traffic hoping to blow a little black smoke in there faces .But no go due to the same lag.
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

I have a 2005 also, I have added an Airaid intake and a Hypertech 41045. This is an inline power tuner. It has an in-cab adjustable dial for three stages of power. In stage three you don't notice any lag, unless you pin it to the floor off the line, then you notice it a bit but very little. I still run my OE exhaust, so I think my backpressure helps reduce the lag. I could be wrong about this because I am fairly new to diesels, but one thing is for sure, The Hypertech really took care of my turbo lag.
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:42 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

i am not sure what to do about it, but i think ford has it set up that way so we dont brake parts. mike [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]
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Old 06-02-2006, 01:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

The larger wheels and tires probably don't help. But any one of the tuners or modules should eliminate the turbo lag. SCT is very popular, if you get a "street" or "extreme" tune from one of the sponsers you will avoid any lag. As an alternative, I found the Quadzilla Xzillaraider module to add a good amount of low end power on my truck, with less smoke.
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Old 06-02-2006, 09:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

this is just a thought! it seems that ford did not fuel the 6.0 pre-boost. cause of the new emmisions that the 6.0 had to follow. if they programed the truck to add some more fuel before the turbo kicks in it would help the stand still acceleration that our trucks have been lacking. i also think that this is one of the reason they decided to use a VGT turbo in the first place. knowing that with the regulations and the presure of knowing that they needed to provide some fuel econ.
that they weakly fueld the truck on low end and tride to use a VGT turbo to make up for it! since the VGT turbo takes less exhaust presure to spool it up! now thats just one thought, i'm no diesel tech! but another thought i had was that when the turbo vains are closed, it increases back-presure to help spool the turbo up, and maybe the increase in back-presure hinders the flow so much that the vehicle lacks in bottom end response!
these are just my 2 cents, maybe it makes sence to some others out there! all i know is with the new recall, the 05E15 i believe it is. they flashed the truck to add some more fuel pre-boost to help some of the lag. thats why alot of the people on hear were talking about the new puff of balck smoke that there trucks were making all of a sudden! and whith a extreme tune they usualy add abunch of fuel to help the low end responce. my SCT does this alot, when i mash it to the floor. anywhay, just putting that out there! maybe it will help some people, maybe it wont!
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:14 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

Here is an old post of mine that has to do with the lag. (What is being describe as turbo-lag in this thread is more than just turbo-lag. When you go from idle to full power the PCM adds fuel and calls for boost. To build the boost faster the variable vanes on the turbo flare in to excelerate the turbine wheel. The effect is a momentary build in back pressure basically choking down the engine giving that dreaded off idle lag, then a sudden surge of boost and the vanes flaring out, the exhaust pressure dropping and then hang on. It is all controlled by the PCM, which means a programing change or fooling the PCM. At part throttle there is not as much demand for boost, hence a better off the line response. The trick would be to get partial throttle vane actuation with full throttle fueling, which should get you some smoke and some gusto. I guess you could physically limit the the amount of flare in, but you would probably get a check engine light and lose some compression braking in tow/haul mode since it is my understanding the variable vanes are use for compression braking. Some of the venders doing tuning might be able to program some parameter changes to help.) The VGT is used to increase boost, hence more power and lower emissions, at lower RPM while still allowing a large enough turbo not to overly restrict the top end. It takes a larger turbo and makes it act like a smaller turbo. Unfortunately due to programing, one small enough to act like an exhaust plug.
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

EGR has at least 50% of the blame on the six-ooohsss...

That is our experience in testing.

the other half i wont get into but we can fix a lot of that with our SII.
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Old 06-02-2006, 07:38 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

I see from your sig that you're not running a programmer. I agree with the others that a tuner is the way to go to diminish lag. The trick is to put in more fuel down low, so you get some grunt before the boost kicks in. I have tried several tunes and tuners, but the best I have found to eliminate lag is the SCT loaded with DJ's street tune. I does exactly what I said, loads the fuel where you use it the most for everyday driving, in the low and mid range. The only issue (if you can call it an issue) with the tune is that it does smoke alot when you get into it, but that's the fuel going in before the boost builds. The boost gets to about 30 PSI, not too high for CP's but high enough for power. The beauty of that tune is that you almost never have to go past half throttle to get good power. (Unless you want to.) Hence, MPG increases, at least in my case. If you do get on it, watch the EGT's, as they do climb fast with all that fuel.
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

THINK ABOUT IT ,LETS SAY YOU HAVE 400RWHP,850RWT VERY EASY WITH A 6.0L WITH SOME GOOD TUNES INTAKE ETC,IF THIER WAS NO LAG AT ALL CAN YOU AMAGINE HOW LONG THE TRANNY, DRIVE LINES, REAR END AND ANY OTHER DRIVE TRAIN PARTS WOULD LAST IF YOU HAD INSTANT POWER LIKE A GAS ENGINE,SOON AS YOU PUT YOUR FOOT TO THE FLOOR, YOU WOULD BE REPLACEING PARTS LIKE IT WAS COOL,I DONT THINK OF IT AS TURBO LAG I THINK OF IT AS THE MOTOR ALLOWING THE DRIVE TRAIN TO LAST,FOR LACK OF BETTER WORDS.........
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

You have a point...LOL

I thinkn part of the lag is also due to the way the motor makes power higher up the tach....
I've done everything I possibly can to eliminate the lag...and with around 500 HP on #2 only...there's still some there if I floor it from a dead stop.
This also makes the above posters point...as I lost a stock tranny exactly 1 day after installing big injectors and some other stuff.
Now that I built it to last though....nothing else driveline wise has broken.
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

I also don't think that this is all turbo lag. It feels and sounds like that there is a 2-3 second delay from the time I mash the pedal until the computer sends any extra fuel to the engine. Then it starts to trying to move and within another 1/2 second or so the boost is up and hang on. I just got a SCT with the SCT canned tunes and with a street tune in so that it makes smoke I could see that that seems to be what is happening. Mash the pedal. By stop watch, 2-3 seconds, nothing, then smoke appears, motor starts reving and truck starts to move, then 1/2 second or so 2000 RPM and boost and go.

Back in the 80's I drove an 18 wheeler tank truck hauling chemicals all over the country. We had Cummins engines and the EPA was starting to get on the trucking compainies and engine manufactures about emissions and smoke.

The Cummins pump had a little screw on the side of the pump that controlled the early stage of fueling. If it was set just right you let out clutch, mashed acclerator pedal and engine responded instantly and truck moved out like it should with just a small puff of smoke. If the screw was out just a l/16 of a turn too much, truck moved about the same but with a big cloud of smoke. If the screw was in 1/16 too much, the engine took forever to feel like it was getting fuel and took forever to get moving, just like these 6.0 L Fords. There was big lag or turbo lag because the pump wasn't sending enough fuel quick enough to build any exhaust pressure to create boost. That's what I think is happening here. The lag from the time the engine seems to actually get some fuel until boost comes up is minimumal and the truck actually begans to move what feels proper during that short time. It is the 2-3 seconds of dead time when it feels almost like the key has been turned off that is the aggravating and dangerous part.
It seems like Ford has programmed in something that tells the computer that if the pedal is moved X amount in Y time with no boost present, do not send any more fuel for 2.5 seconds.
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Old 06-02-2006, 11:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

[ QUOTE ]
THINK ABOUT IT ,LETS SAY YOU HAVE 400RWHP,850RWT VERY EASY WITH A 6.0L WITH SOME GOOD TUNES INTAKE ETC,IF THIER WAS NO LAG AT ALL CAN YOU AMAGINE HOW LONG THE TRANNY, DRIVE LINES, REAR END AND ANY OTHER DRIVE TRAIN PARTS WOULD LAST IF YOU HAD INSTANT POWER LIKE A GAS ENGINE,SOON AS YOU PUT YOUR FOOT TO THE FLOOR, YOU WOULD BE REPLACEING PARTS LIKE IT WAS COOL,I DONT THINK OF IT AS TURBO LAG I THINK OF IT AS THE MOTOR ALLOWING THE DRIVE TRAIN TO LAST,FOR LACK OF BETTER WORDS.........

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably one of the best thoughts! I just got rid of a 500hp, 1000rwt Dodge Cummins Diesel that managed to take out '3' trannys in 14 months just towing and not racing. These diesels just make way too much torque in the bottom end. To increase that is just asking for trouble. As much as I miss the power of the Dodge, I am really sceptical of running a chip and mods on my new truck for this very reason.

I busted all of them from either at a standstill or punching it while in motion. BTW all three of them were BD-Power race built trannies. I figure even if a tranny was "built for this application" they still have their limits. I belive that the Ford tranny is better than the Dodge, but I am not sure that it is stronger than a race built Dodge tranny. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. As I would really like to add more power to this dog. I think in stock form, the turbo lag is just a little too much.
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Old 06-03-2006, 07:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Turbo Lag???

Interesting thread. There are at least 2 factors here. A brand new, fully functioning (clean) turbo has some turbo lag, but it is not that bad. With a tuner or chip, it is even more acceptable. However, there will always be some lag.

I don't think the lag is there to protect the drive train. If it can take 500 ft pounds out at 2500 RPM's, it can take 300 ft pounds at 12-1500. The lag is there because that is what 7-8000 pound vehicles do with a motor like this. And in all honesty, for the large majority of people who own them (who use them for general towing, etc.), the lag is not an issue, they did not buy a race vehicle. If you have been around through the 70's, 80's, 90's a nd now, you would consider the 6.0 a real top performer (again, as a tower, work truck, not as a race vehicle).

The other thought was that the lag was there to help with emissions. That, I can believe. That is, I know they have taken several steps to reduce emissions, most notably, the EGR system as well as the fueling strategy (which leads to some lag). So, yes, with a tuner or chip, you should get that back. With a properly running turbo, the lag is not that big a deal.

Now, the lag you talk about. I know it, all too well. And I know what the problem is. And a tuner or chip really won't help. These engines have an EGR system that basically recycles exhaust gas at lower RPM's. That acts as a double whammy against performance. 1st, it sends spent air (no oxygen, just basically nitrogen and exhaust fumes) back into the combustion chamber. This helps in reducing NOx emmissions, but just crushes performance. So, your turbo, which needs all the exhaust gas it can get at low RPM, is being robbed a little. That is, when you recycle exhaust gases, you can't combust as much of the incoming fuel, so you generate less gas phase molecules, which are the impetus for spinning that turbine. Another factor related to these recycles gases is, that they are inevitably hotter than the ambient air, so this is yet another negative.

The 2nd issue with EGR's is that on this truck, they work well for about a mile. After that, soot starts to coat the valve, which then makes it work poorly. It doesn't close all the way when it is supposed to, or in some cases, gets stuck open. It is a total POS in terms of its design. I understand what it is intended to do, but there is no question among those who have studied it, that it fails, miserably, at doing its job mile over mile. Another additional problem with it is that the soot it promotes also coats your turbo. Then the vanes don't respond well, and that, more than anything, just kills response.

What you are feeling is this last item, I guarantee it. Your turbo is not running right, and it is most likely due to the EGR enhancing the soot exposure to the turbo. No tuner will fix it. The best option is to get it cleaned (or clean it yourself). I bet you will be amazed at how gummed up those vanes are. Turbo maintenance is almost never discussed, but it is critical to the performance of these trucks. I think that the turbo should be cleaned every 10K or so. But no one really does.

RL

ps1: there is a fix for the EGR, but you will have to PM me for that.

ps2: on back-pressure; the less, the better. These are not gassers. Your turbo runs most efficiently if the pressure on the feed side is as high as possible (exhaust flow) and the exit side is as low as possible. Hell, a vacuum on the exit side would be even better. The blades of the turbine accelerate or spin acording to a complicated formula that is proportional to the pressure drop across it. That is, if Pi is the inlest pressure (exhaust gas feeding the turbo) and Pe is the pressure of the gases as they exit the turbo and enter the exhaust pipe, then you want Pi-Pe to be as big as possible. The bigger it is, the faster it spins. The faster it spins, the more boost it makes.
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