Water Alcohol Injection

[OKThumper]

Ok the "search engine" on this site officially sucks. I tried "water alcohol injection", "water injection", "alcohol injection" and just plain old "injection" and the search engine gave me zip, squat, nadda.

I know this subject has been talked to death on the site, but I can't find it.

What are the feelings on water/alcohol injection and who has a complete unit for sale. Also, anybody that has used it, good or bad, please chim in with your thoughts.

Thanks
Thumper [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]

[methos104]

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img] i got over 2 pages of stuff?
water/meth inj is a good source of a little juice. varriable mix for more power/lower EGTs. boost dependant injection, etc.
good stuff if you ask me.


PS - OKT : make sure you are looking in the correct forum when you search [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I have a kit waiting to get installed on my truck.
Got a tranny rebuild to get done first.
With the research I did it seemed to be the safest drug if used in moderation.
You run 100% meth something's gonna blow. LOL
Also.....using washer fluid seems to be a crapshoot......their mixture could be quite a bit off from what it says on the bottle. Best bet is get your own 100% methyl alcohol and make up the mixture yourself.

[fredw]

i started running wi on my duramax a month ago and it looks to be a nice upgrade, it makes a disstink sound when it is on, not sure if it advances the timing or if it is from the methanal, as for power it made around the 50hp on a stock motor, and with my largest tune it made around the 35hp@80tq, i have it set to come on at 18 lbs boost, and seen about 200 degree drop, here is a dyno sheet of a stock duramax, you can see it takes about 4 seconds for the wi to kick in, i have it tied into the bottom of the winsheild washer fluid, giving me a low level alarm when the tank is low, i bought my kit from super diesel over at thedieselplace ,it cost me 450 dollars for a dual nozzel setup, there is pictures their if intrested

[image]http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL22/566829/847939/82851076.jpg[/image]

[soccerstud19]

How safe is it to run. I have been looking for something else. I was even just thinking about running straight water or a small meth mix. I know meth is more fuel and will advance timing right?? What does this do with cylinder pressure? Also what kinda increase do you see with just water? Is it really nice for towing? Sorry for all the questions, I just want some kinda safe power increase. I am not running the Pred. anymore, to many horror stories. More info out there??

[Havasu6]

Water Injection

Some thoughts….

I drive between Los Angeles and Lake Havasu AZ almost every weekend, about 320 mile one way averaging 75 miles per hour. During the summer months the temps regularly exceed 118 degrees at the Mass Air Flow sensor. My water injection is home grown and consists of a tank, pump, relay, stainless braided water filter hose and a nozzle – and a controller. The motor has two nozzles mounted post turbo, on the 90 degree intake of the intake manifold. One nozzle is small and the other is larger, I actually do not know their sizes. The pump is capable of something like 2.4 gallons per hour at 100 psi. During the winter months the system is hooked up to the small nozzle and during the summer months to the larger nozzle.

The controller monitors the Mass Air Flow Sensor and when I have air flow that equates to approximately 2000 rpm it turns on the water pump.

The system does not produce more HP, but it does produce more torque. Normally the truck will downshift when climbing one of the longer grades, but when the water is turned on it stays in overdrive and pulls the hill like a freight train. I run straight water. Sorry no gages in my truck.

Methanol and alcohol are both fuels. It is very hard to recommend a safe mixture ratio between a fuel and water because there are so many variables that determine how much fuel is mixed with the air charge. Variables such as:
- rpm that the systems turns on
- pressure behind the nozzle
- nozzle size
- location of nozzle installation

I have heard of a guy that regularly runs routes across the desert, consuming a 50% ratio of straight water to diesel and improving their fuel mileage by 4 to 5 mpg. So he is filling a twenty gallon water tank with every 40 gallon fill up of diesel.

Eventually my water system is going to undergo redesign this spring. The new design will have two high flow wide pattern nozzles that are mounted behind the grill to cool the intercooler and radiator during the summer months. The nozzles on the intake horn will be replaced with new nozzles so I know their size.

On my 6.0L the ECU controls everything towards a speed/density solution. So adding extra cooling to the external surface of the intercooler might not change a thing, since the ECU is reading the MAP sensor and the MAF sensors to control the turbo.

From what I have read on the internet, the straight forward objective is to get water mist into the combustion chamber – flash boils to steam which expands with more force than the air charge and carries the heat out of the combustion chamber while steam cleaning the combustion chamber.

Any thoughts??

This is a great link for DIY Water injection
http://www.turbomirage.com/water3.html

[soccerstud19]

Go info. I do not know about the water getting into the combustion chamber. I was under the impression that the water evaporated before it got to there exstracting heat from the intake air. Really the two concerns i have been thinking about are cylinder pressure and timing. These seem to be the two big factors messing up these engines. So here are my questions.

1. meth. will increase the timing correct? If so, it doesn't seem to smart to run very much meth while running a hot chip or high timing chip.

2. Does using straight water increase cylinder pressure?

3. Finally I have thought about what you were saying on spraying the intercooler. I don't quite get what you were saying about the turbo, either way if spraying the intercool cools intake air wouldn't that make more power??

Thanks for the info.

Ian

[Havasu6]

1) Methanol or Alcohol or Propane
I spend way too much time lurking in the forums. Based upon what I have read I would have to agree that methanol/alcohol/propane in combination with a chip/tuner that is playing with timing has a much higher potential of disaster. The alternative fuels seem to have the potential of advancing the timing, or advancing the rate of burn and creating too much cylinder pressure too fast. Seems too much pressure too fast or too early tends to break/melt things.

2) Straight water
Yes, from what I have read over the internet…. It sounds like straight water will flash burn into steam, having a greater expansion rate than the gasses from the combustion of fuel/air – therefore more torque. It also sounds like straight water will slow the combustion flame front, providing with a more thorough burn of the fuel/air. Steam cleans the combustion chamber including the exhaust valves.

3) External spraying of the intercooler

Most of this is my speculation, not my knowledge…….
Yes, spraying the intercooler with water will greatly increase the efficiencies of the intercooler, and has the potential to bring the air charge down as much as 30 degrees below ambient temps. That kind of intercooler cooling efficiency does create an air charge that is denser (excuse my lack of grammar). But…. Since the motor is ECU controlled with a dozen sensors…. The ECU has the potential to back down the boost on the turbo.

MAF measures the amount of air coming into the turbo, by flow and temperature
MAP measures the PSI on the manifold, the end result of the turbo and the efficiency of the intercooler
A second temp sensor on the manifold measures the temperature of the air charge inside of the manifold – the result of the air being compressed and then cooled.

If the MAP is not in line with the input from the GO pedal, and the RPM, and the MAF, then the ECU will back down the boost on the turbo. Otherwise you would have acceleration from a slightly lean burning motor. On the flip side of the coin, too little on the MAP and the ECU thinks that the turbo hose has blown off /intercooler has failed/turbo has failed - resulting in the engine light.

I also had a predator on my motor, good power and great shifting, eats tires like there is no tomorrow.

Your results may vary......

[CarterKraft]

The Snow kit is a nice one. Quadzilla carries a Snow kit to there specs. Great power and abiliity to make more power safely if used properly.

[TaddL]

If you go with a high pressure system like the Snow Performance kit just be careful with the mixture of methanol to water. I ran 50% and blew a head gasket.

Not trying to scare off anybody but I tell my customers to always start at 15% and work up. I haven't done any cylinder pressure testing with it but 50% and big injectors didn't mix well.

I have seen a 6.0 pickup 50hp over a mid setting with the Edge. Which was 25hp more than the Edge on lvl 5. Usually most trucks make more total power by setting the chip/tuner lower when using the injection and will actually make more power than the chip on the highest setting.

Make sense?

Tadd

[fredw]

[ QUOTE ]
How safe is it to run. I have been looking for something else. I was even just thinking about running straight water or a small meth mix. I know meth is more fuel and will advance timing right?? What does this do with cylinder pressure? Also what kinda increase do you see with just water? Is it really nice for towing? Sorry for all the questions, I just want some kinda safe power increase. I am not running the Pred. anymore, to many horror stories. More info out there??

[/ QUOTE ]


so far it has been very safe, if i go over a 50/50 blend then you might here a little detnation, or if you start at to low of boost you motor sounds a bit boggy, but all in all it looks safe if used correctly

small mixture will work ok, but the stronger the mixture the more temp drop you will see, winsheild washer works real nice

as for cylinder pressures, the more the methanal the more the pressure, so far no problems with the duramaxes on wi

as for towing, it seams to hold down the temps great if started early enought, if you say start at 28psi it does not work as good, harder to cool once real hot

as for more info, this site, tdr, and the diesel place have great info on it, nothing like hearing from hands on, super diesel has lots of info on it and sells the kits