I just got my new to me 2001 F350 7.3 this last weekend, after getting rid of my 96. I want to continue to run WVO and I what to inquire everybodys minds to my ideas for my new wvo system. I want to keep it simple, and here is my idea; please critique. Fuel tank in bed with hot fox pick up. ran to air dog gen II beside tank in bed. single supply line ran to engine compartmentrigh next to stock fuel bowl. Now there are two lines running out of the fuel bowl one for each head. I am thinking of splitting my single supply line and tapping into the stock two fuel lines, and putting a check valve just behind the connections so i do not get wvo into the diesel system. i will run hose on hose the entire lenght of the supply line back to the hot fox and insulate +wrap. When engine is up to temp just cut the power to the stock fuel pump, and switch to air dog power. This seems simple, effective, and not to expensive. I am estimating around $1000. 100 for semi junk yard tank. 200 hot fox, 600 air dog gen II. 100 check valves (2) and fittings plus heater hose. Please let me know what you guys think.
I've run with the two pumps/check valve scenario for a few years. It works pretty well. However, twice now I've had check valves fail. Right now my FASS pump is out of the system (shorted out) and it is clear that the diesel is back feeding through the check valve on the WVO side.
I'm leaning toward going back to using a three port solenoid valve to switch between the fuel supplies.
On the diesel side, I'm using a Mallory fuel pressure regulator. This way, the excess fuel goes back to the tank. I like this idea in that it keeps the fuel circulating and being polished as it goes through the filter over and over. Each pass through the filter cleans it up a bit more.
The FASS doesn't call for a regulator and therefore is pushing against a lot of head pressure, in my opinion. That means heat. I'm wondering if that is what caused mine to fail. These pumps put out a lot more flow than our engines require. I fear the heated oil will cool as it goes from the tank (FPHE, Hotfox, etc in the back) all the way to the engine.
Therefore, I'm leaning toward adding another FPR at the engine for the WVO side. It will divert the bulk of the flow back to the veggie tank. That means less time for the oil to cool as it travels from the tank to the engine. And again, more passes through the filter... and that means cleaner oil.
Someday I'll go to the regulated return... when I get the courage to dismantle most of the stuff off the engine so I can actually get to the fuel ports on the back! In the meantime, this two pump system works well. I don't turn mine on and off. The diesel pump runs all the time. This way you have a full-time fuel system running all the time. If the grease side should fail for whatever reason, it won't even cause a blip in operating.
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2002 F-250 Lariat, PSD, CC, short bed, 3.73, auto tranny, Line-X bed liner, AFE Filter, HX crossover, intake heater delete, Evans NGC+, Dieselsite 203 thermostat, coolant filter, Amsoil by-pass filter, Schaeffer's synthetic blend tranny fluid, Bob Riley's tranny filter, Velvet Ride shackles, Rancho 9000 shocks with in-cab adjustment, 60 gallon aux tank for burning heated WVO, burning veggie since fall of '04.
Its been a while since we were bouncing ?'s off of each other. Sorry to hear your fass failed. Mine failed after a year and about 15k miles. Dan at DPP/FASS said it was an unknown premature motor failure. I was barely under warranty and they fixed it for free. He said they also upgraded the motor base at the same time. He said out of warranty it would have only cost like 100 dollars. So not to bad.
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2003 Excursion 4x4 - 7.3 liter - 40K on WVO
Veggie Oil Conversion - HOH, GFS Diesel Tank, Stock tank modified for veggie with Hotfox, Hydraforce Valves, FPHE, ARC filter wraps & twin FASS/DPP HPFP's. ITP Reg Return/fuel bowl delete, HPX, AIH, 6.0 IC & Tranny Cooler - Dieselsite 203 T-stat & Coolant Filter - CAT ELC - BTS Valve Body - AIS with fender mod - Dome light overide switch - MBRP 4" Turbo Back - Bully Dog 50HP "McClain Veggie Tune" Programmer - Full A pillar Trans,Pyr,Oil Pres,Engine Temp - Overhead Pod Fuel Press, Boost, Volt meter
I tore apart my FASS and found where the ground lead had broken loose from the base and was touching just a few strands on the positive lead. Resoldered it and should button it back up tomorrow. Still a hoss of a pump.
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2002 F-250 Lariat, PSD, CC, short bed, 3.73, auto tranny, Line-X bed liner, AFE Filter, HX crossover, intake heater delete, Evans NGC+, Dieselsite 203 thermostat, coolant filter, Amsoil by-pass filter, Schaeffer's synthetic blend tranny fluid, Bob Riley's tranny filter, Velvet Ride shackles, Rancho 9000 shocks with in-cab adjustment, 60 gallon aux tank for burning heated WVO, burning veggie since fall of '04.
I have had a FASS short out like that too; was warrantied without problem. The brass check valves of the initial design developed a leak, have sourced satainless ones but am leaning to agree that valves will be at least easier to replace. The ones on the engine are a bear. May try a valve switching operation but I had no funtional problems with the check valve operation, just the life (1.5 years/30kmiles) (Those valves don't last forever either). I am going to try a Raptor pump if the fass goes again and they release their 75psi version.
Bigsteve- Your idea is more or less sound, at least with the 7.3. They are really forgiving when it comes to fuel pressure. The biggest question is what is the coldest weather you will see where your truck will be. Using the AirDog setup is a great start, but how do you plan to heat the oil in the filters to allow it to start the initial flow? Using check valves is a great way to prevent cross contamination, but as mentioned has its drawbacks, such as a potential for failure. That failure by the way is caused by excessive fuel rail pressure on startup from worn injectors. You can use stainless CV for a higher pressure rating, or plumb in an accumulator of sorts- something to absorb that initial pressure spike on startup should your injectors begin to wear. Or even plumb in an overpressure relief valve that ties into the return. Doing that will ensure you years of truble free C.V. operation. Don't forget you will also have to put a CV on the WVO side as well to prevent Diesel from backfeeding your wvo side.
As for the tank, you may do some searching, you can find a purpose built heated WVO for just a little more than you were planning on spending on your tank setup, and it will work much better.
You are MILES ahead by deciding to not use any of your OEM fuel system for veggie. You should hopefully avoid much of the roadside breakdowns that many of us experimentors have faced
I forgot to mention something funny. Just as you are thinking about abandoning the check valve system for a hydraulic/electric (hydraforce) frybrid style valved system. I am inthe SLOW process of replumbing my system from a Frybrid style 3 valve system to a check valve (FN74) system. (glad to see you on here Jason). The reason I am doing this is because the hydraforce valves leak by. You can see this on youtube videos and its even in their literature that they have a leak factor. Now many say it's at hi pressure but I have seen leakage when I have disassembled veg hoses at the valve and have had diesel in there. I originally went frybrid style when I reconfigured my roiginal GFS failure because I thought the Reg return was better than the deadhead. Well if there is any benefit its not worth the cross contamination.
Whats also interesting is the relief valve that Jason mentioned. With the reg return frybrid style you dont have the excessive fuel rail pressures Jason mentioned becaue all pressure gets dumped from the fuel pressure regulator. Others on this site and the frybrid site have mentioned check valve failures and huge fuel pressure spikes at start up with having check valve style plumbing. Due to this I am plumbing in a 100 psi relief valve that sheds excess pressure at start up back to the purge return to veg line. I have purchased kepner valves Pilot operated check valve|Miniature check valve|Stainless steel check valve - Inline check and relief/check valves with JIC ends set at 65 psi. I will have these valves for my two inlets for D2 and VO. The 65 psi are standard models but Unfortunately to get a 100 psi model with JIC ends there was a 100 set up fee. So I found a parker one on ebay with npt and sae ends. I would prefer to use JIC but money talks. To get to the rear fuel ports requires a little patience but is not impossible.
Big Steve,
Jason mentions something about heating the filter that I would do. Like the vegistroke system I use HOH which I think is fine and I am even using a reg return. With a deadhead you are even in better shape. I do use a FPHE for extra heat. I use the ARC filter wraps that get HOT!. I bought these from Jason way back. They are great and I have a switch to turn them off in summer when I really dont need them. Some guys have even put in thermal shut offs so they come on and off as needed. I am not there yet but would love to do something like that in the future
If you need anyhelp PM me.
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2003 Excursion 4x4 - 7.3 liter - 40K on WVO
Veggie Oil Conversion - HOH, GFS Diesel Tank, Stock tank modified for veggie with Hotfox, Hydraforce Valves, FPHE, ARC filter wraps & twin FASS/DPP HPFP's. ITP Reg Return/fuel bowl delete, HPX, AIH, 6.0 IC & Tranny Cooler - Dieselsite 203 T-stat & Coolant Filter - CAT ELC - BTS Valve Body - AIS with fender mod - Dome light overide switch - MBRP 4" Turbo Back - Bully Dog 50HP "McClain Veggie Tune" Programmer - Full A pillar Trans,Pyr,Oil Pres,Engine Temp - Overhead Pod Fuel Press, Boost, Volt meter
Leon- I am not going to come out and file a lawsuit or anything, but I would be most appreciative if you could at least throw an honorable mention in your WVO Designs for the Powerstroke to the person to originally designed it.
Last edited by fordnut74 : 07-29-2009 at 02:26 AM.
Easy Jack, I don't generally get into legal discussions with people aliases...
I know a couple engineers as Navistar but none that I could credit with designing the 7.3 Powerstroke. My understanding is that much of the design is similar to Caterpillar designs...
As far as the SVO/WVO design; I spent a couple months online collecting the best information I could from the drivel on biodiesel.infopop and all the conversion "manufactures" designs. Most svo/wvo "manufactures" simply charge $3000 to ship $1500 in parts. Veggiestroke had a nice assembly of the pump and the filter mounted together that I reference in the design and I know that i have sent business their way for it. Mounting the check valves directly on the engine is a Veggiestroke concept but it certainly has some issues if not just in serviceability.
In the end the design that I post on my site will cost about $1500 if you buy a new tank and build the automatic controller included in the design. It works quite well and is suitable for mechanical people that are inclined to do it themselves.
If anyone wants to talk to me about this or any other design: my phone number is on my site and I make every effort to answer the phone or return the call if I miss it.
His name is Jason not Jack and what I think Jason is saying is your site says your system is "similar to veggiestroke" when it should really say "based off the original veggiestroke design". Jason has put alot of hard work into his system and should be credited for that when anybody is selling a kit based on his design. Regardless of where you finally install the check valve its still a FN74 Veggiestroke design. Even the guys who built there own kit based off of Jason's original concept always say they are using a FN74 design. Be cool.
AJ
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2003 Excursion 4x4 - 7.3 liter - 40K on WVO
Veggie Oil Conversion - HOH, GFS Diesel Tank, Stock tank modified for veggie with Hotfox, Hydraforce Valves, FPHE, ARC filter wraps & twin FASS/DPP HPFP's. ITP Reg Return/fuel bowl delete, HPX, AIH, 6.0 IC & Tranny Cooler - Dieselsite 203 T-stat & Coolant Filter - CAT ELC - BTS Valve Body - AIS with fender mod - Dome light overide switch - MBRP 4" Turbo Back - Bully Dog 50HP "McClain Veggie Tune" Programmer - Full A pillar Trans,Pyr,Oil Pres,Engine Temp - Overhead Pod Fuel Press, Boost, Volt meter
I didn't think his name was Jack but I didn't know it was Jason either. Must I also assume that it is Jason of DFA?
Everything on my site is an open discussion. I don't feel the need to make more mention of any business or person more than I do already. The concept of a variety of systems is pretty common knowledge now. I make it my business to at least be knowledgeable of developments across the industry.
This industry has a pretty big problem with the concept of intellectual property. Like there is some Magic in adding a fuel system to a vehicle. It is the lack of knowledge in the industry that leads them to pay way too much for a shopping list of parts that they can get at Napa. In short I think it is wrong.
The DFA crew has done some nice stuff and I consider them to be among the best. I also think they did the right thing for themselves with the fancy looking V3 manifold. You certainly can't buy that at the hardware store. I don't know that its function cant be replicated from standard inexpensive parts though....
Jason, you are an innovator and a leader in this industry. Keep up the good work. Apparently we disagree with the definitions of first-to-market and proprietary.
Thanks for the support AJ, it is appreciated. I didn't want to rock the boat. I had been working in the 105 degree heat all day, The old lady wasn't puttin out, and I had a rash on my but. So when I glanced at your article Leon, and saw pictures of my early V2, without any referances, it kind of sent me over the edge. It took a rediculous amount of work to develop something so seemingly simple. You are right, none of this is rocket science, but all the same to my knowledge, I was the first one to make the "valveless" design. All I ask(but not demand) is that if you use pcitures or diagrams of my stuff, please at least referance it as such. If you already do, then I missed it, and I apologize for crying about it.
And as for recreating the V3, cheaper, it could be done. Mostly. Kind of like comparing a Kia with a Mercedes. They both do the exact same thing, and in relative comfort. Some of the features of the V3 that the V2 didn't have is built air seperation so you don't have to purge new filters, just install and go. Also has a cleanable pre-filter to protect the pump, Adjustable fuel pressure, modular design that is super simple to work on(can replace pump in less than 5 minutes) entire unit is heated with coolant and has been tested succesfully at -39f in off the shelf form. And of course still has the teperature and pressure monitoring like the V2.
So anyway, I'll get off my and return this thread back to its original topic.
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. So when I glanced at your article Leon, and saw pictures of my early V2, without any referances, it kind of sent me over the edge. It took a rediculous amount of work to develop something so seemingly simple. You are right, none of this is rocket science, but all the same to my knowledge, I was the first one to make the "valveless" design. All I ask(but not demand) is that if you use pcitures or diagrams of my stuff, please at least referance it as such. 
If you already do, then I missed it, and I apologize for crying about it. 
and return this thread back to its original topic.
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