Is acetone in low concentrations harmful to fuel systems?

[shoebear]

This thread is my effort to keep the following thread on topic by splitting out discussion that is not directly relevant to 99+ 7.3L PSD engines and fuel systems.

Acetone in fuel-Did it increase your mileage?-Report it here

Rather than reply there and contribute to off-topic discussion, I'm starting this new thread.

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and for those that wanted some references about automotive products that contain acetone, see here: CLICK HERE
This list may not contain everything that has acetone. In another forum, some guy tested Berryman's B-12 (maybe not the right name) and got an average of 28% increase in fuel mileage. Most other tests that gets good results are from older vehicles so the good results may not be from what the original author's claim - surface tension change - but merely from acetone that had cleaned out the system to get it to work more efficiently.

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Looks like the only fuel system products on the list are carb/throttle body cleaners. When sprayed there, the acetone would not go through the fuel system, it would only contact the carb/throttle body, intake manifold, intake valves, pistons, cylinders, rings, and head gaskets. I don't think there are any rubber/plastic type parts in there except the head gasket. Also, the acetone exposure would be brief, followed by flushing with gasoline as the engine runs.

So I don't think we can learn anything from the list about whether acetone is safe for fuel systems (in general) or not.

[Parrothead]

I changed my fuel filter last weekend after running on acetone diesel, the 'white outer part' of the filter didn't show any of the rubber debris or other gunk that has been predicted- so far. I'll be keeping an eye on it.

Otherwise, one way I look at it is *all* of those carb and injector cleaners that you put in the tank contain powerful and potentially destructive solvents- MEK, methanol, acetone, propanol, magic mung juice, you name it. I have never heard of, or read any complaints of damage due to regular use of these products. People have been using that Chemtool B-12 in their fuel since 1957, and it's 20%-30% acetone. And back then, the materials used in fuel systems were nothing like todays, they had neoprene and natural rubber- that's it.

So I would tend to side with those that say the stuff is so dilute that it won't harm anything.

[Roland_Jenkins]

I'm gonna try it. Been wanting a new truck anyway.

Found this LINK Useful.

[XMen]

Do you think it might be better to add acetone while you are pumping fuel so that it dilutes before it comes in contact with fuel system. You stated that you pour full strength with funnel into tank & then add fuel. The acetone coming in contact with system, even for a few seconds before fuel is added, might be harmful...but glad to hear fuel filter looked clean. Anyway, just a thought.

[XMen]

I looked a a bottle of Berryman's B-12 in Walmart this evening and one of the first things that jumped off the bottle to me was "not for diesel engines". Are there various types of B-12?

[TheHammer69]

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I looked a a bottle of Berryman's B-12 in Walmart this evening and one of the first things that jumped off the bottle to me was "not for diesel engines". Are there various types of B-12?

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I don't think the point being made was that B12 was for diesel engine, the point was that B12 contained 20-30% acetone and was not ruining fuel systems in general. Some of the other ingedients in B12 may not be diesel friendly so I wouldn't be trying it in diesel fuel.

Hammer

[MaxHuey]

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Do you think it might be better to add acetone while you are pumping fuel so that it dilutes before it comes in contact with fuel system. You stated that you pour full strength with funnel into tank & then add fuel. The acetone coming in contact with system, even for a few seconds before fuel is added, might be harmful...but glad to hear fuel filter looked clean. Anyway, just a thought.

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A quick, easy and safe way is to premix the acetone with some 2 cycle oil or 10W oil, 6 oz to what ever amount of oil. You can even get a small jerry can of diesel and dump in 6 oz of acetone. The amount of oil or diesel does not matter but you want to pour this mixture into approximately 30 gallon of diesel in the tank. I believe this is what the professor is talking about using oil to dull the effect of acetone, just for pouring into the tank.

I will go one step further testing by mixing acetone with oil and leave it in the plastic oil bottle to see if it will melt that bottle, just for the heck of it..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Weezer]

Sounds like an interesting venture here but I would caution any of my basement brothers with an IDI to approach this idea with extreme caution as we have to now add lubricity to our fuel to make up for what's been lost in the new low sulfur fuel (our injection pump being the Achille's Heel). Acetone will further reduce lubricity and compound the problem. You strokers have a better chance of making a go of this. The only caveat I'd have for you is that ketones will attack styrenes (ABS) and remove thallate plasticisers from from some thermoset plastics like LDPE (Low Density PolyEthylene). Should be compatible with neoprene and buta rubbers, may attack natural rubber. Sounds like fun, but I'm gonna stay on the fence for this one! Good luck.

Keith

[LMJD]

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Sounds like fun, but I'm gonna stay on the fence for this one! Good luck.


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Right, I'll stick with the mileage improving cow magnets, anyone remember those? Same theory, less harmful. Maybe Birken?
B-12 Chemtool has always been on mine and every other mechanics' workbench anywhere I've worked through the years, however I've never known anyone to put it in fuel tanks. It removes all traces of any kind of oil film, and is indespensible for cleaning gasket surfaces so a new gasket or sealant will stick, cleaning door edges when glueing on new weatherstrip, cleaning varnish, etc, off small engine parts, etc. It's one of the many products I got to have in my garage at home, but B-12 or acetone won't be in my fuel tank.

[The_Kid]

It probably won't have any short term effects, but who knows what could happen over time. When they first started adding alcohol to gas no one had problems right away. Over time the alcohol started softening and deteriorating carburetor gaskets which caused a lot of problems.

[TheHammer69]

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Sounds like an interesting venture here but I would caution any of my basement brothers with an IDI to approach this idea with extreme caution as we have to now add lubricity to our fuel to make up for what's been lost in the new low sulfur fuel (our injection pump being the Achille's Heel). Acetone will further reduce lubricity and compound the problem. You strokers have a better chance of making a go of this. The only caveat I'd have for you is that ketones will attack styrenes (ABS) and remove thallate plasticisers from from some thermoset plastics like LDPE (Low Density PolyEthylene). Should be compatible with neoprene and buta rubbers, may attack natural rubber. Sounds like fun, but I'm gonna stay on the fence for this one! Good luck.

Keith

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That's why you add 2-3 ounces of TCW-3 or other "smokeless" two stroke oil, when using the acetone to give lubricity. plus it helps counter act any tendency of the acetone to eat any rubber in your fuel system.

Hammer

[Parrothead]

That's what I've been doing during my tests, adding a cup or so of synthetic ATF to my tank along with the acetone to help with lubricity, although I also run around 20% biodiesel, which adds plenty of lubricity in itself.

It's all voodoo science! LOL

I instinctively don't believe a few seconds of exposure to pure acetone is going to harm the rubber parts of the fuel filler, the stuff evaporates almost immediately and like I said, I throw it in and immediately fill with fuel, which should wash any remaining acetone down into the tank. This is why, IMO, that pre-mixing isn't necessary, although it won't harm anything to do that, either.

Has anyone ever seen those injector cleaning machines that some shops and dealers use on gassers? They squirt some nasty stuff right into the fuel lines upstream from the injectors. If it dissolves hard core deposits from injectors, you'd think it would dissolve plastic and rubber fuel line parts too, but it doesn't- when 'used as directed'.

This is all how I'm thinking about it. the bottom line is going to be if the acetone really helps fuel economy, I'm not done with my tests so I can't tell one way or another. It's going to take me another week or two. If it doesn't help mileage or performance, then this really all doesn't matter, I'm not going to adding the stuff for grins!

[teester]

Here is a test I just completed. It was inconclusive to say the least. I thought, why not run it in my $100 lawnmower to see what happens?

First I ran it out of gas. Then I started the test.

Fuel / Run time
2 oz gas / 5:18
4 oz gas / 10:53
4 oz w/acetone / 10:52 Note: Screwed up and mixed it 30oz to 10gal. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/phoney.gif[/img]
4 oz w/acetone /10:43 Equivalent 3 oz to 10 gallons


Not promising and not very scientific either as I couldn't monitor the rpm. I did notice an apparent increase in the rpm's when I started it up. Being that it has a fixed throttle I think that makes sense that it would run for roughly the same amount of time but develop more power thus the higher rpm.

I'm not too knowledgeable about the amount of fuel consumed versus throttle position so maybe some of you can explain the results of this test. ie. Should a fixed throttle engine should consume the same amount of fuel per unit of time but develope more power? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

If it develops more power per unit of fuel it will save fuel in a vehicle since you won't need to open the throttle as much to maintain the desired speed.

I concur with the others, it DOES make it run smoother!

[MaxHuey]

1) Dupont Dow Elastomers sent me a nice 40-page report on Viton (fuel system rubber) in various fuels.

The exact one we are interested in, namely 3% acetone in unleaded gas, was not in there, but we can extrapolate it.

ASTM Fuel C is isooctane gas and toluene blend, and used to simulate high-octane gas in tests like this because it behaves about the same, and is standardized and you do not need to worry about additives screwing up the test results.

MBTE is the famous octane booster supposedly found in mother's milk in the NE US.

Code:
Fuel Swell % 7 days at 20C ASTM Fuel C
Conc MTBE Acetone
100% 122 181
75% 84
50% 37
25% 22
0 6 6

3% 9.5 16


Fuel swell is a measurement of how the fluid is eating up the rubber.
Acetone is about 50% higher than MBTE in this test. Zero acetone and zero MBTE gives about 6% swell under these conditions. This is about the same as premium unleaded gas.

If you do linear extrapolation on this (R-squared=.92), 3% MBTE should give you about 9.5% swell, and acetone should give you about 16%. You get about the same result if you estimate 3% acetone by multiplying the MBTE estimate by 181/122.

Here are some other swell figures from the literature (similar conditions)

Code:
90/10 Fuel C/Ethanol 13%
85/15 Fuel C/Methanol 20%
Shell SU-2000 Unlead 10%
Regular unleaded 2-4%


So the bottom line on this: Based on the literature, we would expect the acetone to cause a slightly elevated rate of degradation of the rubber in the fuel system, unless specifically formulated for it. This rate of degradation is higher than normal gas, but on par with such stuff as ethanol or methanol.

So, search your soul on whether you want to do this or not, but chances are if you have a beater, the increased rate of rubber decay will not be fast enough to affect you compared to other issues, such as the car falling apart, etc. But I would say if you have a new car, maybe better lay low on this to avoid having to replace some of the rubber components at some time during your car life.

There is one possible exception, which is the fuel filler hose, the hose that runs between your gas cap and the tank. If you pour straight acetone down this, I am thinking this will be bad, because it is not diluted. If this hose gets cracked and gets holes in it, this will be a source of hydrocarbon emissions (vapors from your gas tank will get out, not to mention possibly some gas), and also, the PFD (pressurized fuel delivery) sensor will cause the "check engine" light to come on in your car annoyingly. So, if you do this, pre-mix the acetone with a little gas before adding it to the gas tank to save the life of this hose. Make sure to include this gas in your MPG calculations.

2) Recalculation:

3 ounces per 10 gallons of gas is 3/1280 or 0.23%

The swelling values are as follows:

Conc MTBE Acetone
0.23% 6.26 6.40

So, still a slight elevation compared to normal gas, but looks even better compared to the methanol and ethanol. I wonder what was in SU-2000 to make it eat the rubber?

3) Everything else I said is right (I think), especially the part about not pouring this stuff down your fuel fill hose without mixing it with something first.

I've been doing a lot of this kind of screw up lately. Luckily I am not designing airliners or bridges.

4) I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so I gotta check a calculation here: If I put 3 fl.oz. of acetone in a 10 gallon tank, I have (3oz)/(10gal x 128oz) or 3/1,280 = 0.00234375 {didn't add the 3 oz to the final mixture volume -- 1,283 -- 'cuz it's essentially negligible.} As a % By Volume, we have 0.234%. As I recall. acetone's SG is lower than gasoline; that would make the % by Mass even smaller.


5) Acetone is known to stabilize the flame front in combustion engines, thus preventing knock and allowing higher compression ratios using lean burn techniques. At one time is was part of many obscure racing fuel brews, and up to 3% is still in use for alcy model airplane fuels, where it prevents "throwing the prop" in four strokes when they go lean..
Yes, it improves fuel economy a bit, and improves cold starting as well, though clearly it is not the miracle additive some would like it to be.

[Suns_PSD]

My Acetone melted thru a plastic bottle I had put it in a few days ago. Whoops!

I asked the Professor about putting ATF in w/ the diesel. He said that was an EXTREMELY bad idea for multiple reasons. He said to use a good synthetic smokeless 2 stroke oil. He reccommended Torco G7.