Bio diesel and Gas / diesel turbines

[barlowcw]

FYI- GE has tested runing gas turbines that can run dual fuel/ diesel with Bio-diesel. The result was a clean burning turbine with little or no NOx and lower CO2. This may doom bio-diesel for the common truck/ automobile use because once the power producers get to using Bio, the price will increase and supply will dry up.

Opinion.

[F350_6]

Not necessarily. It's about supply and demand. If the demand is brought up by the folks running the turbines it may justify new plants and alternative crops for biodiesel production that will have a positive impact on price & supply.

[Sparkydm]

Then again, it may push companies to develop Bio-Diesel from
algae plants that aren't tied to a crop or drilling. Imagine, being able to make all of the Bio-Diesel you want without having to drill or grow crops for it. Just build whatever size plant you want and crank it out! It could be a competitive boom instead. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

[F350_6]

The technology is available to produce the bio from numerous crops whether it be algae, soybeans, grasses, wood scrap etc. I think the key will be producing the bio from a regionally available crop. That means higher initial start up costs since refineries will be built to handle different crops and you can't just ride someone else's experience up the learning curve. Mass production will bring down the cost but there's a large cash outlay required to get things up and running on the mass production scale.

[Sparkydm]

"The technology is available to produce the bio from numerous crops whether it be algae"
That's the part you're missing, the great thing about
algae is it isn't a crop! You don't need farmland to grow
it. It can be done in an industrial plant. You aren't tied
to the weather nor would you compete with any food products
and run their price up. Corn and these other ideas are basically
insane in my book. The only people that might win would be
big farmers at the expense of the rest of the country. It's a total lose situation. Algae isn't a limites resource like oil nor does it compete with food. More people in industry are starting to realize this. Now, if it can survive the gauntlet of lobbyists and big oil buying everything out, it might have a
chance. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif[/img]

[F350_6]

Sorry, but I've got do disagree with you on this. You have to cultivate it and grow it. It takes the right growing conditions for optimum yield, and you have to harvest it when its ready. That makes it a crop in by book. Doesn't matter if its grown on farmland, underground caverns in the desert, or a factory somewhere.

[dakotajeep]

Splitting hairs.....

[yaric008]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sparkydm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"The technology is available to produce the bio from numerous crops whether it be algae"
That's the part you're missing, the great thing about
algae is it isn't a crop! You don't need farmland to grow
it. It can be done in an industrial plant. You aren't tied
to the weather nor would you compete with any food products
and run their price up. Corn and these other ideas are basically
insane in my book. The only people that might win would be
big farmers at the expense of the rest of the country. It's a total lose situation. Algae isn't a limites resource like oil nor does it compete with food.</div></div>

Believe me, if it were that easy it would have been done long ago. Growing algae is easy, keeping it growing and producing high yields is very difficult.

[Sparkydm]

"Splitting hairs..... "

Absolutely, he's missed my key point completely!
The main advantage is it doesn't compete with any
existing crop resources. Therefore, it shouldn't run
up the price of food for other people. Some people just
hate to pass up a chance to argue. I'm done with this.
Not worth the time.

[F350_6]

I wasn't trying to argue, just point out that one "crop" won't provide the cure all. I live in the country. I harvest crops from the fields, & I also read the country newspapers that report regularly on new crops for biofuels. I agree corn & soybeans is not a long term solution. But the timber industry currently leaves tons of scrap material in the field from their harvesting operations. They are working on ways to take this scrap and turn it into fuel. They are also working on hyrbid trees or woody brush that can be grown on CRP land (land the government pays you not to grow on) the is only harvested once every 5 years. They're also working on things that can be grown in fields not suitable for traditional crops, or using silage or waste from existing food crops.

Like I said. Not trying to argue, but think there's no one magic bullet here.

[Sparkydm]

Algae doesn't require tillable land. It can be "grown" in an
industrial facility. That being said, oil refineries worked
quite well for a long time. With the land limitations taken
away, Algae is the only foreseable "crop" that can replace
oil almost in it's entirety. Corn, sillage, scrap wood, and
etc. are stop gap measures at best. It's the land and usage of space that makes Algae so attractive. More people in industry
are starting to realize this. There's a lot of work going into
developing this method. Whoever cracks the economics on this
one will make billions! Being able to make oil without sucking
up to the Middle East? Who could pass on a deal like that? It will be interesting to watch in the least. [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif[/img]

[F350_6]

There's some professor somewhere that had an article a year or so ago that looked into the algae option. If I find the article I'll send it to you. His conclusion that this would work best growing in ponds in the southeastern half of the US, and in underground caverns with water in the desert southwest. I guess he didn't like you folks up north.

It's still going to take a lot of square feet in a factory to produce enough fuel from an algae factory. Around here they build all the new factories and shopping centers on what used to be farmland. Since it's hard to change your mind after a few years and plant food crops under a bunch of pavement you can see why I'd rather find alternative crops for farmland rather than paving over it.

I might have saved that algae article at work. I'll let you know tomorrow.

[yaric008]

the DOEs study.

http://www.samantha.cc/biodiesel_from_algae.pdf
at 20-25 year research study into biodiesel from algae.

[StorminNorman]

Doug Henston, Colorado School of Mines, National Renewable Energy Lab gave a presentation on algae production at the BioDiesel Coop Conference last July. Extremely knowledgeable individual on an interesting subject. He relayed his experience with algae research on the Great Salt Lake in Utah. I have contacted the Conference management team to see if the Powerpoint presentation is still available. As I recall it was entitled Bioprospecting the Great Salt Lake.

BTW, anyone that is interested in Bio and has some time in the middle of July for a trip to Colorado, it is a very productive and informative couple of days. I will post the link to the conference when it becomes available next year.

Norman

[barlowcw]

Check this news story about other countries producing and exporting bio diesel.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1017160535.htm

Makes me realize, we will still be dependant on foriegn produced fuels. Like I said in the original post, the gas turbines that can burn diesel can be easily ran on 100% bio diesel. There are good reasons to burn bio in a turbine one is just for the cleaner exhaust.

The algae bio source is a good one, but I fear we will be importing that as well. I guess price and demand will dictate who produces and where. I sure hope we can be the exporter for algae produced bio fuels. The article talks about producing the bio fuel from crops as we have discussed here at length.