Diesel + Vegi Oil

[mccullionj]

I was wondering if it's possible to clean/filter vegi oil (from a deep fryer) and then add it straight into your fuel system.

I ask this because I use my home fryer now and then and I hate to just dump that oil out. What are the reprocussions of doing such an add to the fuel system or will it not effect it in such small quantities.

[StorminNorman]

Filter it well, it will not do anything other than improve the lubricity of your ULSD if you add it a gallon to a tank full.

Norman

[leongriffin]

If you are only doing a gallon here and there strait in a full tank of diesel will work fine.

Also, the best (easiest) method of "filtering" is not to filter at all, set it aside for a month (at room temperature) then just pour off the top. When you get to the sediment, stop and discard.

I make centrifuges that do this at speed but only a consideration once you are dealing with hundreds of gallons or more...

Leon
WVO Designs

[Homemade WRX]

if running the WVO when the motors cold, you can get veggie oil into the crank case via blow by from the pistons/block not being to temp...motor oil, veggie oil and heat don't play well together.

[airfooter]

The problem with 'blending' is the likelihood of the oil to separate from the diesel in your tank. IF it does this, the first gulp of 'fuel' your engine drinks on a cold morning may be straight (cold) VO. That said, many have successfully blended a few percent VO into diesel successfully. I think the key may be non-hydrogenated and low fats VO. I suggest making a sample of your blend in a bottle you can observe outside your your fuel tank, so you can tell if it has seperated.

If you have a wood stove/fireplace, many have made 'fire logs' using sawdust/chips and VO pressed into 1/2 gal milk cartons. They last a looong time and produce a pleasant, fried-food smell.

[BIGBLUE777]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

if running the WVO when the motors cold, you can get veggie oil into the crank case via blow by from the pistons/block not being to temp...motor oil, veggie oil and heat don't play well together.

...LOL, please excuse me, but this is so totally incorrect in my experience with two 6.0's. Ive got an 06- 6.0L with a little under 92,000 miles on her, with over 70,000 miles run on a "cold blend" of 85% filtered vegetable oil, 25% diesel and 5% RUG, with a couple of other additives WITH NO ILL EFFECT WHATSOVER! I mean, NEVER EVER has this truck had "veggie oil into crankcase via blowby from the pistons/block being to temp"...In otherwords, my oil level has NEVER risen above normal level nor became 'diluted' in any way.

As for "playing well together"...this 06 F350 seems to do just fine with a COLD BLENDED VEG OIL MIX!


...jus my $.02

[airfooter]

Originally Posted by BIGBLUE777

...LOL, please excuse me, but this is so totally incorrect in my experience with two 6.0's. Ive got an 06- 6.0L with a little under 92,000 miles on her, with over 70,000 miles run on a "cold blend" of 85% filtered vegetable oil, 25% diesel and 5% RUG, with a couple of other additives WITH NO ILL EFFECT WHATSOVER! I mean, NEVER EVER has this truck had "veggie oil into crankcase via blowby from the pistons/block being to temp"...In otherwords, my oil level has NEVER risen above normal level nor became 'diluted' in any way.

As for "playing well together"...this 06 F350 seems to do just fine with a COLD BLENDED VEG OIL MIX!


...jus my $.02

So whats with the 'upgraded' fuel pump and filter?

Here's the reality. When a diesel engine is cold, it does not make full compression. During this time, some of the combustion gases get past the rings and 'contaminate' the crankcase oil. Ever notice how fast diesel engine oil turns BLACK. Well, when those combustion gases have partially burned diesel (due to incomplete combustion from low compression and cold combustion chamber) its not so bad. BUT, when there is unburned VO in the mix, it rapidly polymerizes and dramatically reduces the ability of the oil to lubricate the engine.

Additionally, since even your 'special' blend is likely much thicker than diesel - it is not properly atomized thru the injectors, especially when engine is cold. This lack of proper atomization has a tendency to leave carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. This is generally the worst in ringland, the coolest place in the combustion chamber. This leads to increased cylinder wall wear and a further lack of compression - generally enhancing the ill effects the most right before total destruction.

I personally have my doubts about your success, but think it is pretty amazing, especially in the fuel-picky 6.0. Even so, 70k is a short life for any modern V8 engine, especially a diesel. Your 'success' may be short lived. I have met several folks who were 'blending' VO and diesel, some much lower % than you claim. Of them, all who had a used oil analysis performed STOPPED blending due to the evidence of increased engine wear.

Hey, whats a $23 UOA when you're savin' as much as you claim on fuel costs? Feel free to publish the results here, even though we would have know way to know what engine/blend the oil came from - I trust you!
Free Test Kit

Here's some reading to help further explain why blending is (usually) a bad idea:
Mixing Gasoline And Diesel

BioMatNet Item: FAIR-CT95-0627 - Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO)

Palm Oil as a Fuel for Agricultural Diesel Engines

Like I always say, please choose wisely or PLEASE post pictures of the carnage!

[airfooter]

Originally Posted by BIGBLUE777

of 85% filtered vegetable oil, 25% diesel and 5% RUG, with a couple of other additives

Forgive me, I just did the math and the reason for your success is suddenly very clear!!

Most of what I said only applies to engines running on 'blends' that total 100%. At over 115%, all bets are off. The higher % obviously leads to better combustion!

I'm sorry buddy, I just can't help myself. Did you buy some stock in DSE too?

[BIGBLUE777]

Originally Posted by airfooter

So whats with the 'upgraded' fuel pump and filter?

Here's the reality. When a diesel engine is cold, it does not make full compression. During this time, some of the combustion gases get past the rings and 'contaminate' the crankcase oil. Ever notice how fast diesel engine oil turns BLACK. Well, when those combustion gases have partially burned diesel (due to incomplete combustion from low compression and cold combustion chamber) its not so bad. BUT, when there is unburned VO in the mix, it rapidly polymerizes and dramatically reduces the ability of the oil to lubricate the engine.

Additionally, since even your 'special' blend is likely much thicker than diesel - it is not properly atomized thru the injectors, especially when engine is cold. This lack of proper atomization has a tendency to leave carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. This is generally the worst in ringland, the coolest place in the combustion chamber. This leads to increased cylinder wall wear and a further lack of compression - generally enhancing the ill effects the most right before total destruction.

I personally have my doubts about your success, but think it is pretty amazing, especially in the fuel-picky 6.0. Even so, 70k is a short life for any modern V8 engine, especially a diesel. Your 'success' may be short lived. I have met several folks who were 'blending' VO and diesel, some much lower % than you claim. Of them, all who had a used oil analysis performed STOPPED blending due to the evidence of increased engine wear.

Hey, whats a $23 UOA when you're savin' as much as you claim on fuel costs? Feel free to publish the results here, even though we would have know way to know what engine/blend the oil came from - I trust you!
Free Test Kit

Here's some reading to help further explain why blending is (usually) a bad idea:
Mixing Gasoline And Diesel

BioMatNet Item: FAIR-CT95-0627 - Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO)

Palm Oil as a Fuel for Agricultural Diesel Engines

Like I always say, please choose wisely or PLEASE post pictures of the carnage!

Heh Footer, Im not gonna get into a pissing match with you, cause Ive seen you many a time here trying desperately to disprove anything other than 'Biodiesel'. Bottom line, it is quite apparant, because you dont like the fact that others, and MANY others for that matter CAN and DO run a cold blended vegetable oil mix with EXCELLENT and CONTINUED results, such as myself,no matter what anyone tries to either explain or give you actual results you still will refuse to believe. Therefore, for OTHER diesel owners benefit OTHER THAN YOURSELF, I will gladly break down your unsubstantianted statements as far as I am concerned from MY PERSONAL experiences...

#1 "So whats with the upgraded fuel pump and filter?" Is that the best you could do?...Looks like youre snooping for excuses there buddy... I chose to upgrade with these items because they work better IMO than the factory setup and the filter is much easier to replace than the oem one. Also, the filter is heated, BUT this filter will only heat the fuel when the temperature drops BELOW 70 degrees...in which by the way, I live in SOUTH FLORIDA, where that happens quite RARELY, only a couple of months out of the year! As for the lift pump, there is obviously a substantial increase in volume as well as pressure delivery compared to the oem lift pump and I chose to purchase one specifically designed to be used with vegetable oil. Now, with that said, I have stated in previous threads, that I used the factory lift pump on my 04 6.0l for as long as I had that truck(175,000+ when I traded for my current 06)as well as my current one for combined over 100,000 + miles!!! I lost only ONE oem lift pump on my 04 AFTER 30,000+ miles DUE TO MY NEGLIGENCE OF NOT REPLACING RESTRICTED FUEL FILTER! Simply put, just like the rest of my listed mods, I chose to address these in that area as well...MY CHOICE

#2 "Here's the reality. When a diesel engine is cold, it does not make full compression". I believe you were trying to convey 'COMBUSTION'. Footer, that characteristic is present with #2 Diesel as fuel as well! ALL engine oils turn 'black' in time. I have stated already that my oil level has NEVER EVER risen above normal oil mark, NOR has my oil ever gotten blacker any sooner. "But, when there is unburned VO in the mix, it rapidly polymerizes and dramatically reduces the ability of the oil to lubricate the engine."That is pure BS SPECULATION, LOL ! Just another scare tactic to confuse the ignorant... You easily omit the fact that vegetable oil in itself, is an element of lubrication. Ludicris, bottom line, starting a diesel engine on Cold Blended veg oil DOES NOT polyermize, dilute or raise the engine oil level AT ALL. I PERSONALLY CAN ATTEST TO THIS! I have never had an engine bearing failure, hpop, ring, scorned cylinder between two 6.0's. Dont believe me, I could care less...

#3 Additionally, since even your 'special' blend is likely much thicker than diesel-it is not properly atomized thru the injectors, especially when the engine is cold. This lack of proper atomization has a tendency to leave carbon deposits in the combustion chamber...." First off, at the amount of #2 percentage that I use in my blend, youde be hard pressed to distinguish the viscosity between the two. Additionally, with the included additives that help combat ANY "improper atomization", I highly doubt any xtra incurred "carbon deposits" are present in the combustion chambers. In fact, inspection of my dual exhaust tailpipes are rather clean and dry compared to just #2 for fuel! Also, I will further conclude after I removed the 03 turbo from my previous 04 6.0 to install on my 06 6.0, I decided to disassemble it and "clean and inspect". To my surprise, I was well pleased to find almost NON existent of any carbon buildup...while, at that time, that turbo had well in excess of 75,000+ miles on it, all the while running a Cold Blended Veg oil mix! And as for not atomizing thru my injectors, lol never a hiccup or issue with them whatsover! Dont believe me, I could care less...

#4 Footer, you have doubts in ANYONES success with Cold Blended fuel! I am not here to convince U whether it works or not, but rather INFORM those who ARE interested by PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND FACTS! "70,000 is a short life in any modern V8 engine, especially in a diesel". Your 'success' may be short lived . LOL, it wouldnt matter if I had 200,000 miles on my trucks, you still wouldnt accept the fact that Cold Blend veg oil is a SAFE fuel... BTW, like I said in past posts, I will update from time to time as the mileage adds up running this Cold Blend fuel...

#5 "Hey, whats a $23 UOA when youre savin as much as you claim on fuel costs? Feel free to publish the results here, even though we would have know (no) way to know what engine/blend the oil came from.."
I tell you what, heres a suggestion, why dont you PERSONALLY come down here to West Palm Beach, Fla, and check out my cold blending setup, PERSONALLY take an oil sample and have it analyzed yourself. That way, you will know it came out of my Cold Veg oil blended fueled engine! Problem is, youde probably only be more angrier at the fact of the normalcy of my engine's oil sample as well as HOW EASY it is to make your own fuel in 30 minutes or less! LOL, you couldnt handle it.

#6 "Like I always say, please choose wisely or PLEASE post pictures of the carnage". Wisdom comes from knowledge and experience. Investment, time and effort and most importantly END RESULT is what matters! Footer, I guess youll have to keep on waitin for any 'carnage' from my end, cause unfortunately for YOU, it aint happened yet!

Like I said, for the rest of the readers who REALLY care to know if Cold Blend Veg oil works and is ULTIMATELY safe as #2 Diesel, listen to those of us who ACTUALLY have PERSONAL experience and use with it!!



FWIW,
Lenny

[BIGBLUE777]

Originally Posted by airfooter

Forgive me, I just did the math and the reason for your success is suddenly very clear!!

Most of what I said only applies to engines running on 'blends' that total 100%. At over 115%, all bets are off. The higher % obviously leads to better combustion!

I'm sorry buddy, I just can't help myself. Did you buy some stock in DSE too?

LOL, my success has ALWAYS been clear to you...you just REFUSE to ADMIT it!! You only make more excuses and it clearly shows your ultimate ignorance in Cold Blending... As for DSE, I havent bought their additive in over a year..not that it matters.

Also, Im done with your posts on this subject, as Ive stated in above post that Im not getting into a pissing match with you. If you like, I HIGHLY ENCOURAGE you to PM me and Id love for you to come down here and meet with me IN PERSON and we can continue this discussion!

Most Respectfully
Lenny

[TonkaThunder]

Big Blue, with your FASS system do cold starts take any longer or smoke more?

[airfooter]

Lenny, calm down man. I'm not instigating a pissing match. Just providing a difference of opinion. I've never compared anything to biodiesel - I have warned the uneducated about the dangers of burning WMO and cold VO a few times though... I sincerely apologize if you feel attacked. I realize I kinda called you out, I'm sorry. Sometimes I get a little carried away!!!

Your south florida environment is key to the success you've had this far. BTW, I will take you up on your offer next time I get down there - I travel all over the country for work, and have met dozens of folks from Vermont to Los Angeles and Seattle to Miami who use VO as a fuel.

The fact remains that LOTS of people do not share your success. Even on THIS board. The problem is they rarely come back to tell the tale. I think its largely a pride thing - once you go around spouting off about how great of an idea this is, its hard to come back and apologize.

I gotta clear this up for you. Your oil level will not rise. In fact, all engines 'consume' a little oil all the time. I see this is difficult to understand, but diesels do not make full compression when they are cold. As the engine warms, the tolerances tighten and higher compression is achieved. I made reference to how FAST diesel engine oil turns black, compared to a gasser. Ever start your truck in below freezing weather? Notice it was kinda loud and had less power until 'warmed up'? During the 'cold' weather, this effect is just more pronounced - it is a fact of life for all high compression engines though. The UOA can identify increased wear by identifying the amount of metals present in the engine oil.

As for BS speculation, well thats just an uneducated opinion. Your tailpipe and or turbo is not where the damage is likely occuring. In fact, the tailpipes of the detroyed engines I've seen didn't look any different than 'normal'. The only turb I saw with damage was an extreme case where a moron souped up a TDI engine with a dead cylinder, the attempted to burn dirty, cold VO in it. The chunks of crap that left the dead (no compression) cylinder made it to the turbo. As for polymerized VO in engine oil, the only case I've seen where it was visible was a bus that also had tremendous blow-by from bad valve seals or something and cold VO and the engine went well over 10k miles on same engine oil. These cases were EXTREME and probably pretty rare. I've seen a 24V Cummins witha 'good' VO conversion (190+ VO temps) destroy (carbon build-up) a set of high performance injectors. This guy simply drives like an old man. When I drove his truck he was highly alarmed when I got on it! He didn't know his truck could smoke the tires from a roll in 2nd gear. He rarely sees over 2k rpm's on his daily 12 mile commute. I think driving 'hard' helps achieve better combustion due to higher combustion chamber temps. In your case, I'm SURE the propane helps as well.

I think you'd be suprised at the actual difference in viscosity. You are dealing with a very, very fine mist of fuel. Even small increases in viscosity dramatically affect the way these injector spray and atomize the fuel. See the ACREVO study for more detail - they suggest that VO does not atomize as well as diesel until over 180*F and approaches diesel at closer to 300*F. Obviously there is more going on in the combustion chamber, but this study was just looking at atomization. As for the additives, thats a dangerous guess IMHO - see the TDR article I referenced.

It is not so much that I don't believe you - its just there is more to the equation than most people describe. ie, VO itself varies WILDLY from semi-solid at 80* to still liquid at 0*F, driving habits, other mods like water/meth injection and propane/NOS, heated filters, modified fuel pick-ups, etc. The 'recipe' of all these variables MUST explain why some folks ruin their engine in 25K miles and others claim 100k or more.

The truth is, the PSD is a VERY tolerant engine of more viscous fuels due to the deadheaded fuel system design that provides a good deal of additional heat to the fuel immeadiately before injection. Also, the lack of an IP and having almost the whole fuel system under high pressure creates additional 'forgiveness'.

The OP asked a question and we have successfully provided him with some very different opinions. I even gave him some links to data and studies that help confirm the 'education' you call speculation.

Best of luck Lenny, I look forward to buying you a beer next time I'm down that way. Sadly, I was just in Miami last week - I think you'd be impressed with what I've done as well.

[BIGBLUE777]

Originally Posted by TonkaThunder

Big Blue, with your FASS system do cold starts take any longer or smoke more?

Honestly, no difference at all, other than the FASS pump may appear to sound a little louder at first. I have stated in previous threads that a Cold Blend mix will generally 'crank' about twice as long as normally would with just #2. An easy way to deal with this difference is to simply connect the engine block heater overnight, especially if one lives in constant colder climates.

I love my Fass pump setup and feel in was a very wise investment, as Ive had ZERO issues with it thusfar. The only drawback, if it is any, is the fact that it does make more noise than the oem lift pump. I have alleviated much of the noise thru rubber mounting to bed frame, so it doesnt resonate as bad. Still, well worth the $.....SO FAR

Lenny

[luckuslucas]

Originally Posted by BIGBLUE777

"But, when there is unburned VO in the mix, it rapidly polymerizes and dramatically reduces the ability of the oil to lubricate the engine."That is pure BS SPECULATION, LOL ! Just another scare tactic to confuse the ignorant... You easily omit the fact that vegetable oil in itself, is an element of lubrication.

It is an element of lubrication when you're comparing it to diesel fuel. Care to compare it to 15W-40? Try loading your crank case up with VO and let us know how far you get.

Like I said, for the rest of the readers who REALLY care to know if Cold Blend Veg oil works and is ULTIMATELY safe as #2 Diesel, listen to those of us who ACTUALLY have PERSONAL experience and use with it!!

I know Jason has heard this one from me before, but we blew up a Jetta TDI by running a cold blend in it. Long story short, the Greasecar kit in it crapped out halfway though a 11 week trip where we didn't have the time to do a proper repair. I thought we could get through the rest of the summer by blending fuel in the VO tank (about 50/50), so it was only cold during startup, not all the time like you're doing. After about 5,000 miles of doing this, it chucked a rod due to poor lubrication on the crank bearings. The poor thing was all gunked up from blowing cold VO past the rings, which contaminated the engine oil and caused it to deteriorate rapidly.

I'm not doubting the success you've had with your setup (except that blend ratio), I'm just stating that you're walking a very fine line with a very expensive motor.

Best of luck, and if things let go, please post pictures.

[Dirtcheap]

blue a good friend of mine just gave me the rest of his left over oil from the DSE "project" he was making..after it left him stranded for the 4th or 5th time he gave up..i seriously looked at using that method but went the biodiesel route..i know the 6.0s are picky about the fuel..im in pensacola and we do get (rarely) mid teens during the winter..my investor now has 19000 trouble free bio miles on his 2001 250..if you are having good luck with blending then carry on its your wallet..try putting some of your mix in the fridge and the freezer with a kitchen thermometer and see at what temp it turns solid..i think youll find that you being that far south has a great dealto do with your success...my bio is still liquid at 7 degrees 70/30 bio diesel and even better 50/50..both mixes have antigel..