do i need a hazmat - Diesel Forum

forrest11479 · 07-20-2005, 01:55 PM

i am looking to transport biodiesel over the road in 500-1000 gallon batches on a trailer do i need a hazmat lience or is ok to just pu the tank on a trailer and go.

i live in new york

JOAT · 07-20-2005, 02:17 PM

I don't think Bio needs a Hazmat, but I could be misinformed. Another concern is what DOT regulations are concerning transport, and does the container need to be DOT approved? It may never be an issue unless you are required to pull in at weigh stations tho.

bullridin_fool · 07-20-2005, 08:31 PM

i don't believe that you would need a haz'mat, i can't think of any thing it would fit under. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img] it's not toxic and its not consider a flammable(i think). you just wanta make sure that the container(s) have a capacity less than 1,000 gallons or you will need a cdl with a tanker endorsments as long as its 999 gallons or less your ok. this is the tank capacity not what yer actually carrying.

forrest11479 · 07-21-2005, 02:02 PM

so i can have two 600 gallon tanks on my trailer.

Hoss350 · 07-21-2005, 02:50 PM

I am pretty sure it is not considered Hazmat. Cooking oil is not. Methanol is not. Lye is, but the quantities are too small (shouldn't be ANY if the batch was brewed right). Bio is non-toxic, biodegradable, and no more flammable than cooking oil, which is considered non-flammable. SO, I would assume not, but I would also check with my local DOT to make sure!

bullridin_fool · 07-21-2005, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
so i can have two 600 gallon tanks on my trailer.

[/ QUOTE ]

according to the dot book i have it would be considered as 1200 gals. as in the book it reads any tank/tanks with a capacity of/or equalling 1,000 gals or more used to haul a liquid or a liquified gaseous material.

ToddT · 07-21-2005, 10:14 PM

The methanol is a hazardous material due to the low flashpoint (57 degrees F). The caustic (NaOH and KOH both) are hazardous due to the corrosive nature (pH above 12). The vegetable oil and in my opinion the biodiesel are not hazardous materials per DOT definitions because the flashpoint is well above 140 degrees F. Try more like above 300 degrees!

That doesn't mean other permits might not be used. The liquid waste haulers (septic tanks, portajohns) are required to have permits in certain locations. Non-hazardous waste oil haulers are required to have permits.

Here's the rub... mention to your insurance agent that you are carrying waste oil and get ready for a new premium!

DOT allows up to 1000# of a hazardous material be hauled without a placard. As I recall, if you are hauling more than 10,000# you may be required to have a CDL just due to the commercial activity, regardless the hazard class. DOT has a lot of rules and I find the codes much harder to understand than EPA and OSHA. But, I spend more time working with the environment and safety so it may just be my experience.

Remember DOT is a federal regulatory agency. Each state must abide by the basic federal regulations but may add on top of that for even more stringent rules. And each municipality may have rules beyond even that. Oh what fun!

Todd T

Hoss350 · 07-22-2005, 03:24 PM

Todd makes some good points. I'd better retract my previous "catch all" statement. While not a "hazmat" per se, you'd better do your homework on legality and insurance issues...

txcas · 07-22-2005, 10:25 PM

My local Bio distributor will only deliver B100 since it is not considered hazmat. He said that when it is blended with petro diesel (even B99) then you are required a hazmat license.

forrest11479 · 07-25-2005, 03:17 PM

ok called D.O.T. hazmat line. flash point must be above 200 degrees F to be a not hazadrous material. bio is above 300 F so it is ok to transport. they also said you can transport as mush as you want as long as you don't exceed wieght limits.

I will keep everybody informed of the tickets i get after i get a tank to mount on the trailer.

thanks for all your help

dssamp · 07-25-2005, 10:24 PM

Hoss_350....guess I don't understand the "not hazmat per se." Methanol IS hasmat period....no if's and's or butts.....no pun intended...I buy from a chemical and have to sign a release form stating I "don't" want a hazmat placard to display.....and every 50 gallon drum comes with a 3 page hazmat warning. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif[/img]

on edit.....guess I didn't read the original post very well.. if he is only transporting biod then methanol should be pretty much non-existant if washed and air dried properly. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif[/img]

skydivr000 · 07-26-2005, 01:33 PM

You better do some serious investigating before you head out on the highway with 2 x 600 gallon tanks of Diesel fuel. Diesel is clearly rated on the hazmat table as UN1202. If you transport it in some sort of bulk tank, each tank cannot contain more then 450 liters, or roughly 155 gallons. To transport the amount you are talking about I do believe would have to be done using a tanker. I don't know anything about licensing for them. But if you transport under 1000 LBS (POUNDS), you are exempt from having to placard your vehicle. I think anything over that requires a haz-mat endorsement on your CDL license. The CFR49 (code of Federal Regulations section 49) governs what can and cannot be done).

Read this next part very clearly:

DOT fine start at $32500 and they NEVER find just one violation. They will asess criminal and civil violations against you and if you screw up, you may find yourself in jail longer then rapists and bank robbers.

I deal with Hazmat shipping via air and ocean every day and i see what they can and have done, and believe me, it ain't pretty.

Did I put the fear of GOD in you yet? I hope so.

Gary

ToddT · 07-26-2005, 02:06 PM

I hear you skydvr! The rules used to be that you could take a bunch of individual drums and not have to placard. I used to ship out 50 to 75 drums of a 175 degree flashpoint cleaner and the trucking companies told me it didn't have to have a placard unless we used drum totes. I assume the old 119 gallons is now up to 155. That's nice.

Here's something odd... the go in weight in one instance and volume in another. This can make a difference depending on the chemical you are hauling. A drum of a heavy acid cleaner can easily weigh over 500 pounds. Therefore you can only haul one and a partial drum. But, 155 gallons could be anywhere from under 1000# to 1800# or more.

Sorry to take a tangent. Just odd.

OSHA will work with you. EPA will work with you. From what I hear, DOT doesn't work with anybody. Fines are still and I haven't heard of many times they negotiated.

Todd

skydivr000 · 07-27-2005, 10:27 AM

Oh they will negotiate with you and when it is all over you will thing that you got off lucky and breathe a sigh of relief. Think of it this way:

If you carried two 600 gallon tanks, They could construe that as a violation for each tank. Chachin $65,000

No CDL. Chaching $32,500 (plus criminal penalties)
No Hazmat endorsement . Chaching $32,500 (plus criminal penalties)
No Bill of lading. Chaching $32,500
No placards. chaching $32,500

Then they will start with training requirement, undeclared shipments, security training, and a host of other things. When they get all done they will be up to $300,000 + Then after your attorney negotiates it down to $25,000, you will think you got off easy. The maximum penalties section starts on page 40 of the most recent CFR49 manual. Unless you have more money then GOD, it just plain ole' aint worth it.

But that is just my .02

Gary

mm0015 · 07-27-2005, 12:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh they will negotiate with you and when it is all over you will thing that you got off lucky and breathe a sigh of relief. Think of it this way:

If you carried two 600 gallon tanks, They could construe that as a violation for each tank. Chachin $65,000

No CDL. Chaching $32,500 (plus criminal penalties)
No Hazmat endorsement . Chaching $32,500 (plus criminal penalties)
No Bill of lading. Chaching $32,500
No placards. chaching $32,500

Then they will start with training requirement, undeclared shipments, security training, and a host of other things. When they get all done they will be up to $300,000 + Then after your attorney negotiates it down to $25,000, you will think you got off easy. The maximum penalties section starts on page 40 of the most recent CFR49 manual. Unless you have more money then GOD, it just plain ole' aint worth it.

But that is just my .02

Gary

[/ QUOTE ]

Good GOD you have me scared, and I don't even haul bio. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] Are we absolutely certain a 275 gallon tote of WVO does not in any way violate any of those req's?