Heating B100 for winter use?

[sv52]

I also make and use B100 in my 2000 F250 sp power stroke. It runs great and is 50% quiter.
I am trying to come up with a heating system to allow for B100 all winter without a diesel purge system. Ever try it or hear of anyone that has did it? would realy like to know.
It seems that if you heated and insulated the tank with approved plastic tank heater pads for 110 volts along with controled heat tape for same on all lines to filter you could keep the bio at around 60 degs and run radiator hoses with the heater lines for heat. When the engine gets hot after you start and it warms up you could unplug the 110 lines and run keeping the truck running when you stop for any short times or plug it in at work if you have the ability. Seems like it would work but have not went as of yet any further than locating the heater pads and tape.
Your thoughts
Steve

2000 F250 600+ gals B100 in last three months. No effect and not even a filter change yet.

[drcampbell]

It's going to be tricky to assure that every corner, fitting and tight space gets adequately insulated and doesn't make a localized cold spot. Making this work will require extreme attention to detail while installing insulation - it only takes one cold spot congealing to shut down the whole thing.

And, of course, if you ever park it where you can't plug it in - due to a flat tire or just suddenly needing to go somewhere you hadn't planned on going, (the hospital or bail bondsman's office, perhaps) it'll gel up.

You might have best results with self-regulating heat tape. Instead of a conventional heating element, it uses a temperature-sensitive semiconductor. On an inch-by-inch basis, it delivers more heat anywhere the temperature is lower.

One example:
http://www.briskheat.com/products/sl...ing-cable.aspx

[sv52]

Yes, aware of the heat sens tape. Have not yet lifted the truck to look over the needed solution.
Was also toying with the idea of a single heat source and then ins & circulating the bio to keep it warm???
A ton of money would be saved as the cost of diesel here right now is $3.19 per gal and I make it for $1.32 at cost.....
I will spend the money plus alot more if I do not put it into making B100 work.
Also..do you make your own bio? Mine is from sources that give me a good amount of tallowy bio and that is a problem as the tallow seems to drop out at cooler temps and even hardning at the bottom....Wondering if I will have a problem even going to B20 for winter with my bio???
Have not did any testing yet. I have tested a very expensive additive ( $200 per 5 gal) and it only made a 3 degr diff but was no good even at 22degr's as it hardened up about two thirds the way up the quart jar with no diff between the reg bio test.
If anyone else runs thier own bio for the B20 winter mix, I would like to know if it has done anything to your running?
At least I could save some money if I can use a tallowy home brew.
Steve

[drcampbell]

No, I don't make any of my own bioDiesel.

I also know little or nothing about the chemistry of bioDiesel, so this is pure blue-sky thinking, but what if you put your bD in a freezer for two or three days, set to the lowest temperature your region ever experiences, poured off the liquid which didn't congeal (akin to cidering) and saved the bottoms for spring? Would that yield a low-temperature winter bD or would it distill the mix and yield some undesirable fraction?

[yaric008]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drcampbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I don't make any of my own bioDiesel.

I also know little or nothing about the chemistry of bioDiesel, so this is pure blue-sky thinking, but what if you put your bD in a freezer for two or three days, set to the lowest temperature your region ever experiences, poured off the liquid which didn't congeal (akin to cidering) and saved the bottoms for spring? Would that yield a low-temperature winter bD or would it distill the mix and yield some undesirable fraction?
</div></div>

Now now Doc... whats this... rambling....? [img]/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif[/img]

First off before you figure out how to get your stuff from gelling I think you need to review your process of how you make your biodiesel. If tallow is falling out of your finished biodiesel then you obviously aren't getting a complete reaction therefore you need some refinement. From what I understand all biodiesel in the end should be exactly the same, falling under the ASTM standard D6751, or really close at least.

Some simple tests you can do are the 27/3 test. Put 3mL of finished biodiesel into 27mL of methanol and shake it up real hard. If it turns clear then you have a good product, if it turns real cloudy and stays that way for more than 5-10 seconds you have unreacted oil in your finished biodiesel. Another test you could do is the specific gravity test which would tell you how well it reacted aswell. When you wash your finished bio do you get any cloudy layer between the bio and the water that settles out. The line between the two would be very distinct and there should be nothing between them. Also when you wash you biodiesel after the reaction, do you have any problems with emulsions forming. That's another indicator that you have strange stuff going on.

Once you confirm you have good biodiesel then I'd worry about the gelling issue. I just tested my stuff yesterday and it started to gel around 32-34F which is about how cold it gets around here. That stuff passed all the tests for good biodiesel too. I'm thinking either get some additive for it or just blend it with diesel in the winter.

[VD350]

Depending on how cold it is where you live, cut it with kerosene. We have a 60% bio to 40% Kerosene mix and it doesnt gel till -8F. Might want to look into doing some experiments of your own

[hheynow]

Drop your tank and install a Hot Fox then crate a coolant loop to heat it. The only possible drawback is if your fuel line has gelled solid bioD and it won't start. Happiness is warm bioD on a cold winter's morning.

[sv52]

No rambling
Been doing the 3/27 test and water test all yr and get perfect bio. Tallowy bio does change the gel point and the tallow will get harder faster than the reg veg bio part BUT will go back when warmed to solution. Tallowy bio is a better bio they say for higher burn rate and temps. This is what has been looked at but of no mater to me as I use what I can get.
My average titration is 2.5. and I filter my bio down to 1 micron.
It can get very cold here in the -10 or worse but average winter is around say 0 to 22 degrs.
My bio hardens out at the bottom 1/3rd at 22 degres in freezer. Have not tried the draw off of the thicker top layer but I would wonder what I will get after if I do that and of course I must now know....right. Test on its way.
I really thought that I would find some one that has did the total heating of the fuel system for B100 in winter. I can not believe that I am going to be the first to realy look into it?
Steve

[sv52]

That is a deal I was running through my head as for heating the fuel tank and then do a circularion of the B100 to keep all the lines warm. Of course a very good insulation would have to be made along with a 110 volt standby added. Looking at the item and I like it. Will do some thinking here.
I have tried, like I said a very high priced additive but to no avail. Your use of Kero is a good thought and worth the look see. How cold does it get around your place?
We had 44 degrs last night here and my outside samples are only a bit showing cloudy but at maybe 1 with highest at 10.
Looks like the days of cheaper diesel fuel than gas are over so we better get in gear for the bio replacement.
REALLY do not want to stop at a gas station for fuel this winter......I have said goodbye to my heating fuel oil guy and would like to continue that with the gas stations.
Steve

[yaric008]

I didn't mean to be an ass about the no rambling... just drcampbell likes to get on peoples cases when they say they don't know what they're talking about and then he did it, so :P

As for your problems, it's good you do have good fuel. As for the heating. Why can't you just run some coolant line in series with your heater core and then just put some runs of the line under your fuel tank, and then maybe wrap your tank with some insulation. Then to heat the fuel when you're at home without the engine running just get one of those magnetic heater things for oil pans and stick it to the fuel tank, if it's magnetic that is. I don't see why you have to get real fancy here, as long as the fuel stays liquid it's all good.

If you really want to spend alot of money then you could get one of those fuel tanks they use to heat WVO that http://www.greasel.com has.

[sv52]

Yes, I am thinking of doing a dual heating deal with both water lines and 110 volt heater tape and pads before insulaing the tank and lines. Heat the bio with plugin like the block heater and start engine till warm then run. Would need a thermostat to keep tabs on bio temps mabe even in a couple or more places. If you do not have a plugin at location of stop then keep the truck running. It still would be cheaper than the darn $3.19 per gal cost right now.
Must be someone out there that has did this by now I would think...
Many things to look over but it can be done if enought time and money of course is spent. I will spend around $2,000 more this winter in deisel fuel cost if I do not use my bio so...spend maybe $1,000 to save $1,000 and beyond??? Lets keep thinking of this and keep tabs on the subject as we can all get a real good deal if and when we can get a viable results on some testing.
I know that we can do additives and ratios of reg diesel fuel but why not the entire B100 and say goodby opec????
Steve

[drcampbell]

I don't mind rambling. It's one of the ways new ideas emerge.

I get on people's cases when they're spouting bovine biosolids and claiming expertise which they don't have.

[sv52]

Wow, I realy thought we would be getting tons of interest and hopefully someone that has did the bio fuel heating system for B100 winter use...I was wrong. Maybe it would be a good idea to make a system to sell if it is still an undone deal......?
Thanks for the input so far and the links like the hotbox. If I ever get less busy with buss. I can work on this thing.
Cold now coming so it will be dropoff of B100 to B80 and so on to B20 but I hate paying OPEC&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&g t;
Steve

[Halitosis]

I figured I would throw in my .02 here... (What am I up to now, $3.00 worth?)

BioD and WVO users are a different species. WVO folks solve their viscosity problems mechanically.... BioD people solve their viscosity problems chemically.

If you start going down the path of trying to figure out how to MECHANICALLY alter your vehicle to get around BioD viscosity problems, then you are taking a different path that many BioD purists haven't traversed, and may be unwilling to follow.

(Likewise, this would be like asking how much methanol a WVO burner uses to lower viscosity... we... just... don't.)

It's not that the path you are asking about hasn't been traveled, it's just that you have have already passed the fork in the road that gives you the inherent answer...

Halitosis

[hheynow]

Well said!