HHO Hydrogen Conversions...

[xero-xero]

OK seeing as how the last thread was closed due to special people arguing THIS THREAD IS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE USED IT and PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT.

GAS engines run much more efficiently off of these units than diesel due to the difference in how combustion is achieved.

Here is a list of ideas, problems, ect..

1. Heat
2. Electrical
3. Effects on a motor
4. other parts to consider when installing a unit

So i will explain how it works and go through different answers that have been given to me for the problems i listed above.

HHo conversions produce hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis. 2 electrodes submerged in water with a positive and negative current running through it. There are some units with wires coiled with the current running through it, and there are some with plates. The coiled wire and electrode setup have less potential to create the gases, so the plate setup is opted for in most setups. The water that is in your unit can be just water but electrolyte (different types but sodium carbonate will work) is a catalyst to enable more production. Heat is a major issue. Installing a pulse width modulator will triple your production and regulate heat. The voltage is varied in a unit over a wave form. this is the basic principle behind it. Wiki has a better more precise answer Here. Some if not most of these PWMs have amperage regulators which allows you to control the electrical draw from your car. Electrical is a very big topic with all the how to's. the only comment i am going to make is have a PWM and a fuse on the system. Now for effects on the motor. Running strait hydrogen requires a ceramic or chrome cylinder walls, pistons, valves, and exposed parts of the head(to the combustion chamber). When you mix hydrogen with gas, the effects are minimal, if at all,when compared to wear and tear already happening.

I have installed these units on multiple vehicles but 2 are my own, one is a 1987 Honda accord with the 2.0 carbuerated motor and the other is a 2001 ford e350 with a 7.3 dit. As for the accord, the carb has just been leaned out you just have to give it a little gas when you start it. The e350 has a superchip programmer for the most economical setting and a rev limiter set 250 below stock(that due to it being a fleet vehicle).

If you want to argue or make a point, dont post it here. send me a pm, im, or even a text (3105619006)

[RatherBNtheWoods]

Good post. In these stressful economic times, it's good to see people helping others by showing honest and truthful ways to help them out.

[drcampbell]

They've already been discussed to death:
Hydrogen Generators
Hydrogen?
They do not provide any benefit.

[roofeditor]

But I know some want to believe the impossible so I just leave it there.

[xero-xero]

Yes, it does benifit diesel engines. increase of 6 mpg is the proof. yes, they have argued it. but not one person has gone into detail to discuss it. plus i have the unit on 2 vehicles one that i drive and one that i work on, every day. the problem is everyone is buying these el cheapo plans off ebay. Now as for them not being any use to gas engines. i would take that bet any time.

and the square root of -1 = i

[xero-xero]

1 - Explain why hydrogen isnt combustible
2 - explain why oxygen isnt combustible
3 - explain why electrolysis does not break down water into hydrogen and oxygen molecules.

[leongriffin]

Mr Zero.

Its not about the HYDROGEN it is about ENERGY. Yes, Hydrogen will burn and Energy can be recovered from it.

The very very simple issue is that there is no potential energy in WATER! It takes more energy to create the hydrogen than you will ever hope to recover from burning it. This would be simmilar to pumping water from the ocean into a mountain top reservoir with the hopes of creating electricity. You will only get out less than what you put in. You can not create energy and not accounting for it properly does not make water flow up hill on its own.

Typically, people making public posts, statements or questions about Hydrogen generation in vehicles are part of a small internet marketing group that sells these kits and or information on how to make them. These free forums have become the secret weapon in the internet marketing game. They create viral BUZZ that has an inherent credibility because it is not obvious that the person that started it is actually the benefactor.

That said, the pattern is pretty obvious. A new user will start a new thread with a "awe shucks" sort of question; "does this Hydrogen thing work?" or "a friend of mine has this Hydrogen car" and people jump in. Interestingly, I don't believe that the negative answers are actually counterproductive to the goals of the marketer. Even bad publicity is better than no publicity.

So, just in case someone has missed my point: Not only am I attempting to lay down some logic on the snake oil that is being sold but I am also bringing the spotlight to a user that I am 95% certain is a professional internet marketer.

Leon Griffin
WVO Designs - A do it yourself guide - Home

[RatherBNtheWoods]

Now hold on there leongriffin. He isn't necessarily a professional internet marketer. He may be simply a non-truth speaker(L I A R), or intellectually equivalent to a tree. What makes you suggest he's a professional internet marketer? Do tell. Inquiring minds.......

Some of his posts make claim to 80MPG in some little ricer car because of his DIY HHO gizmo, and he personally realized an increase from 17 to 28MPG on his E/F350. Now thatair'ssome tall talking ratthar!

[THEBUNDO]

I've been interested in, and doing research on, Brown's Gas aka HHO, for some time, and it DOES have potential. Watch this news report on YouTube:
YouTube - Water Torch

This water-fueled cutting torch is on the market, and he has a car running exclusively on water in the report as well. The argument used about pumping water up to the top of a mountain is a version of the old principle that you can't get more energy out than you put in, but there is a catch. If the energy is already there, from nature, you can get more out. Wind generators are an example, so are A-Bombs. Onboard electrolysis can be used in this manner. The problem with these cheap kits and plans on the net is that they don't address several issues. One is corrosion on vehicle components, from the engine through the exhaust. Another is they don't have metered flow, by tapping into the throttle position sensor, etc.

[xero-xero]

metered flow is an issue, but as far as internals, run it with gas, no problems, run it strait (yes it has been done) then you need a coating on all parts exposed the the combustion (ceramic, chrome, or titanium)

[xero-xero]

Now as far as water, by its self, no explosive properties, actually more properties to sustaining life. but separately, (thats the point of the generator) BROKEN APART they can be burned. and as far as being a marketer, not even close. i work on vehicles for a living, but i do see the potential in further devlopment and the ecological reprocusions.

Now jump to the honda subject since everyone freaks out about 80 mpg. the same unit is on my honda as on the e350, the only difference is the size of the water container. and it is some fact of diy, but you cant go to home depot and buy every part. there is some know how behind the electronics. and as far as the ricer comment, in 1973 the honda civic could achieve 40 MPG on the highway. why is it that the american made cars still have not surpassed that. 300k later guarenteed, even if your vehicle is a work truck with 300k, mine is still more cost effective.

now as far as 28 to 30 in a 7.3 with a e4od, you capable of doing this, but he vehicle looses almost all function. like i said, 22 to 24 is the average with an economical tune. and its not a buzz issue. diesels is more in the computer, and a fine tune on a dyno is not economical for these gains. this is a fleet vehicle none the less.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by xero-xero

metered flow is an issue, but as far as internals, run it with gas, no problems, run it strait (yes it has been done) then you need a coating on all parts exposed the the combustion (ceramic, chrome, or titanium)

This is wacky. When running an engine at the same power setting on different fuels, cylinder pressure & temperature will also be the same.

If the cylinder pressure were higher, the engine would be developing more torque. And since cylinder pressure is a result of cylinder temperature, the same pressure is the result of the same temperature.

If the metallurgy is sufficient for gasoline or Diesel fuel, it'll be sufficient for any other fuel at the same power settings.

[xero-xero]

hydrogen will explode at sea level with a spark. gasoline and diesel take compression to explode. note EXPLODE, not catch on fire. its partly due to ho volatile the fuel is and how much more BANG the fuel has. after 5k on hydrogen, your cylinder walls will be cracked, rings fried, valve seats non existent, and im pretty sure your going to need your head or heads reworked.

Now as far as POWER SETTINGS, i didnt know there was a knob you just turned up to get power... but realistically, you do get more power, its just a matter of understanding the difference between the fuels.

[THEBUNDO]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

This is wacky. When running an engine at the same power setting on different fuels, cylinder pressure & temperature will also be the same.

If the cylinder pressure were higher, the engine would be developing more torque. And since cylinder pressure is a result of cylinder temperature, the same pressure is the result of the same temperature.

If the metallurgy is sufficient for gasoline or Diesel fuel, it'll be sufficient for any other fuel at the same power settings.

It has to do with corrosion from the water created

[xero-xero]

i believe your on the wrong topic about corrosion... if it was an issue, it would be in the exhaust... but little if any is there..