HHO Hydrogen Conversions...

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by PTC_POWER

We can go round and round.
There are cars that run on hydrogen cells.
There are people who run their houses on just only hydrogen, made from the sun and the wind, they use no gas or electric [companies].
There is a news channel that has done the test with a dyno
electrolysis is real.
There are truckers who pay around 3,000.00 dollars for these systems, and love them.

so, again stop trying to get in the way of people who are [curious] to find things out for [themselves], besides, one of these people might come up with a new invention on this type of subject.

I think I'm going to make a tin foil hat!

I think I get it now: Elucidating fundamental principles of science, engineering and mathematics is equivalent to “getting in the way of people’s curiosity”.

And publishing one’s thoughts on an Internet bulletin board is somehow “getting in the way”? Those must be some powerful, powerful thoughts if they’re capable of preventing a would-be inventor from disconnecting from the Internet, walking away from the computer and going out to the workshop to invent something. Maybe I should enroll in that Jedi Master program, after all.

There are people who gamble away $3,000 in a night at the casino and love it, too. That doesn’t make it a wise & prudent investment.

Yes, there are cars that run on hydrogen fuel cells. Apollo spacecraft ran on hydrogen fuel cells, and quite successfully, if I do say so myself.
But this thread isn’t about cars that run on hydrogen fuel cells; it’s about cars that run on gas or Diesel engines.

Yes, a television “news” program did run an uncalibrated test on a dynamometer.
And what were those test results? Inconclusive, irreproducible, 1/10-1/20 of the manufacturer’s claim and in the same range of mileage improvements which can be expected from switching to a red oil cap.

Nobody ever said electrolysis isn’t real.
What we’ve said is that it provides no benefit to gas or Diesel engines.

I think a tin-foil hat is a splendid idea. It’ll give people advance warning of the intellectual quality to expect from underneath the hat.

[xero-xero]

get back on topic please before it gets shut down...

[RatherBNtheWoods]

HHO generators still can't increase MPG in a reciprocating engine.
Sorry.

Wait. Belay my last. If you have a solar cell on top of the vehicle to run the HHO, then use the H in the engine, it could/would help. That way the energy needed to make HHO from the H2O wouldn't be coming from the engine!!??

[jski55]

AGAIN.... it has been done by people on the board in gassers. I have not tried on my diesel yet. I dont need to argue with doc or mark or you again.

It has been done and thats the question asked and people are trying to respond to.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by RatherBNtheWoods

HHO generators still can't increase MPG in a reciprocating engine.
Sorry.

Wait. Belay my last. If you have a solar cell on top of the vehicle to run the HHO, then use the H in the engine, it could/would help. That way the energy needed to make HHO from the H2O wouldn't be coming from the engine!!??

Once you have solar cells on the roof of the vehicle, you can power the vehicle's accessory load, eliminate the alternator's draw from the engine and omit HHO entirely. Not only would that actually work, it would also avert the nuisance of rewriting the theories of conservation of energy, combustion and thermodynamics.

[RatherBNtheWoods]

There you go being serious again.

[luckuslucas]

Originally Posted by RatherBNtheWoods

HHO generators still can't increase MPG in a reciprocating engine.
Sorry.

In theory, the only way HHO generators could improve your MPG and not violate the fundamental laws of thermodynamics would be that if the introduction of hydrogen was able to substantially increase the efficiency with which the fuel burns in the cylinder, such that the gain in efficiency would yield more energy than the HHO generator requires to run. However, modern engines run so efficiently to begin with that I don't think this is possible.

So, to reiterate your original statement, an HHO generator driven by the alternator will not increase your MPG.

[fireguywtc]

Originally Posted by luckuslucas

In theory, the only way HHO generators could improve your MPG and not violate the fundamental laws of thermodynamics would be that if the introduction of hydrogen was able to substantially increase the efficiency with which the fuel burns in the cylinder, such that the gain in efficiency would yield more energy than the HHO generator requires to run. However, modern engines run so efficiently to begin with that I don't think this is possible.

So, to reiterate your original statement, an HHO generator driven by the alternator will not increase your MPG.

I really doubt this theory. But if someone wants to test it out, I will let them test it on my 67 F250. I can't think of anything that burns more inefficiently

[luckuslucas]

Originally Posted by fireguywtc

I really doubt this theory. But if someone wants to test it out, I will let them test it on my 67 F250. I can't think of anything that burns more inefficiently

Yes, like I said. Theory. I doubt there's any case out there where it would work either.

[Phillipmc1268]

Originally Posted by xero-xero

hydrogen will explode at sea level with a spark. gasoline and diesel take compression to explode. note EXPLODE, not catch on fire. its partly due to ho volatile the fuel is and how much more BANG the fuel has. after 5k on hydrogen, your cylinder walls will be cracked, rings fried, valve seats non existent, and im pretty sure your going to need your head or heads reworked.

Now as far as POWER SETTINGS, i didnt know there was a knob you just turned up to get power... but realistically, you do get more power, its just a matter of understanding the difference between the fuels.

The Hindenburg did not explode, it burnt. Furthermore fuels are not explosive, just explosives such as black powder and TNT are explosive.

"BANG the fuel has" Please relate the level of BANG to BTU's or kilojoules of the various fuels discussed in the amounts in the cylinder during combustion to make your point.

For an engine to produce an amount of horsepower at a given load a certain amount of heat has to be produced in the cylinders regardless of the type of fuel. What I'm saying is for a vehicle to travel a constant 50 mph takes x joules of heat. That heat can come from alcohol, hydrogen, gasoline, nitromethane, LPG, propane, natural gas, diesel, or cow farts but it has to be x joules of heat. If it were less the vehicle would slow down, if it were so much more that these conditions exist: "cylinder walls will be cracked, rings fried, valve seats non existent, and im pretty sure your going to need your head or heads reworked." the vehicle would be accelerating.

There is no POWER SETTING knob, however there is a pedal that serves this function; it's called an accelerator pedal.

[HHO]

In reference to the recent post on water in the exhaust system.
Moot.
When you are driving the humidity level produces the same effect. A lot of times the humidity in my area is over 90%.
In the event damage would occur with HHO after combustion, the same effect would have already taken place simply from the moisture in the atmosphere being introduced into your intake system.
Sam

[drcampbell]

Does nobody here have a back of an envelope?

When the relative humidity is near 90%, the mass fraction of water vapor in the air is 1-2%.

In a gas engine, or a Diesel engine running near full rack and approaching a stoichiometric air:fuel ratio, the mass fraction in the cylinder is about 6% fuel, about 1% hydrogen. The mass fraction of H2O in the exhaust due to fuel is about 9% - substantially more than the amount of H2O occurring naturally due to high humidity.

The moisture in the intake air is necessarily at or below saturation. Not so for the exhaust.

To recap:
Moisture due to combustion of gasoline or Diesel fuel: 9%
Naturally-occurring moisture: less than 1%
Moisture due to combustion of HHO: 0.009%

An HHO generator will not have a measurable effect on the H2O content in the exhaust.

[Greasy_Dually]

Alternators don't run at full capacity constantly, when you are drawing more amps from them, the resistance to the engine increases therby resulting in a slight reduction of fuel economy. If I accept your notion that the amount of hydrogen produced is enough to exceed that loss, then why doesn't BMW make thier hydrogen car so that you just fill up on water? Since you claim a twenty percent increase in MPG then slap 5 of these contraptions in the trunk, put a dual alternator setup on the car and you are good to go. Pipe the exhaust back into the water tank and you'll never have to fill up!!

The hybrid market has shown us how profitable it is for car makers to build vehicles that don't rely on gas. If this stuff worked car makers would be all over it! The new hydrogen engine and hydrogen fuel cell vehicle don't have onboard electrolosys there must be a reason for it.


Now if you want to put a big solar panel on your roof at home, put the hydrogen you get into a propane tank and install a propane injection system in your truck, I think you would have something. The energy used to get the hydrogen would not be coming from your vehicle, and with a big enough set of panels you may get enough to fill a five gallon tank every week or so.

Some of the people who get to lease the new Honda Clarity will be getting solar panels with a setup so they can refuel at home.

[macmaniac1]

I believe that the heat form the valves etc. can ignite hydrogen before the top of the compression stroke. That and the fact that hydrogen burns much faster than gas or diesel could be the reason for engine damage over time. I read about one company that got around this by using a diesel engine and a special injection system. This way it is injected at the right time and with no other special internal parts needed. I have just read an article in a auto mag. that states engine manufacturers are trying to design a better gas engine. An engine that will ignite fuel with no spark, direct injected will have no butterfly valve to control air flow into engine, and once perfected will be able to burn many types of fuel. they say that they need a faster computer to make the needed calculations for the fuel/air ratios. I say that this sure sounds like a diesel engine to me. It can already do most of these things without a super computer. Give it a multi fuel injection system with a multi fuel programmer and their you go.

[HHO]

CAMPBELL,
I only have one question. Have you personally built and experimented with HHO system on a gasoline or diesel engine?
There are several of my units, dynoed, and also running on over the road tractors all over the country with 'measured' results.
All are positive.
And your answer to my question is.............?
Sam