Hydrogen?

[Westro]

PTC_power, this is High School chemistry. I challenge you to prove that simple electrolysis violates the conservation of energy. File a patent and please enlighten us, the math never lies.


As we try to help. If you wish to collect more Hydrogen, gather from the cathode side where it is generated. Or the anode for Oxygen.

[RatherBNtheWoods]

Here is one way, possibly the only way HHO will work.







If you plug into your neighbors outside receptacle when he's not looking, you will end up with more H for the electric you pay for!

[red5jedi]

Originally Posted by Westro

PTC_power, this is High School chemistry. I challenge you to prove that simple electrolysis violates the conservation of energy. File a patent and please enlighten us, the math never lies.


As we try to help. If you wish to collect more Hydrogen, gather from the cathode side where it is generated. Or the anode for Oxygen.

You guys are sounding like the same people that don’t think you can use veggie oil in a diesel motor.

Lets use your “high school education”. Atmosphere (aka air) is made up of a variety of gases but mostly nitrogen (78%), oxygen (21%) along with other gasses (argon, carbon dioxide, neon, helium, methane, and so on). So that’s 99% N and O. Nitrogen is an inert gas which does nothing for combustion and oxygen which is required for combustion. Now what do you think would happen if you increase oxygen and add some hydrogen to that percentage?????


4micaman didn’t say he was replacing diesel or RUG and running on HHO only, so saying you can’t get more energy out of something than what you put in just makes people think your not reading and remembering what was said. There are several people that ARE using it and have seen MPG gains around 20-30%. Give him a break unless you have done it and know first hand…

[LunaTech]

Good post!!

Originally Posted by red5jedi

You guys are sounding like the same people that don’t think you can use veggie oil in a diesel motor.

Lets use your “high school education”. Atmosphere (aka air) is made up of a variety of gases but mostly nitrogen (78%), oxygen (21%) along with other gasses (argon, carbon dioxide, neon, helium, methane, and so on). So that’s 99% N and O. Nitrogen is an inert gas which does nothing for combustion and oxygen which is required for combustion. Now what do you think would happen if you increase oxygen and add some hydrogen to that percentage?????


4micaman didn’t say he was replacing diesel or RUG and running on HHO only, so saying you can’t get more energy out of something than what you put in just makes people think your not reading and remembering what was said. There are several people that ARE using it and have seen MPG gains around 20-30%. Give him a break unless you have done it and know first hand…

[MarvinVR]

that thereis not more in this website about this. Its all over the news,its all over the web. People are selling books, CDs. plans, the completed units, etc. Of course it becasue of fuel prices. Everyone including a local news reporter claims it works and gives up to 30% or more mpg.

All that said---why is there only one thread on it here, and why no consensus? I mean, we have bunched of threads over what I consider useless wastes of time and money like the oil crossover tube. Isnt anyone here doing more research on this? I want to build or buy one but dont want to harm my engine.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by red5jedi

... Nitrogen is an inert gas which does nothing for combustion and oxygen which is required for combustion. Now what do you think would happen if you increase oxygen and add some hydrogen to that percentage?

In a Diesel engine, pretty much nothing.

Diesel engines run a leaner-than-stoichiometric air:fuel ratio, resulting in nearly-complete combustion and surplus oxygen in the exhaust. Adding oxygen to an already-lean mix will result in a little bit more surplus oxygen in the exhaust. Yawn.

If anybody bothered to do the math, you'd notice that HHO advocates typically claim that 0.1 kg of water per hour makes a remarkable difference in an engine consuming 20 kg of Diesel fuel and 400 kg of air per hour. At the recommended 1:4200 blending rate, very precise instrumentation will be needed to even measure the results.

Chalk it up to the placebo effect, the true-believer effect or the red oil cap effect.

As for nitrogen, it's far from inert at the temperatures & pressures encountered in internal-combustion engines. It reacts with oxygen to form NOx. (NO, NO2, NO3, N2O4, et al)

Forget high-school chemistry. Try reading Heywood sometime.

[PTC_POWER]

I have done the research, I have made probably 40 or 50 prototypes (there was someone who said making prototypes and failing inst failing, it is me making my product wrong the first 50 times

I am working on some other little inventions to increase the oxygen from the hho hydrogen is lighter than oxygen so if i increase the flow of oxygen from (i think the air we breath is 14% ) to something like 50% not sure what it will do but want to find out.

I challenge anyone to do the research and try for them selves.

I will help anyone with what i learned if they want it, I'm not promising anything.

oh and for the diesel side of this, I think it only adds maybe 1 or 2 mile gains and helps keep the engine cleaner, they only part that you would have to worry about rusting is the catalytic and maybe muffler, but I don't have any of those.

what i don't get is why do people get so upset when talking about this, if you don't believe then why post, nothing is gained nor lost with your opinion.

so why do you care so much about this, is it because you want to believe that it can work?

[RatherBNtheWoods]

"what i don't get is why do people get so upset when talking about this, if you don't believe then why post, nothing is gained nor lost with your opinion."

I disagree that nothing is gained. Whenever people in the general populous make incorrect/impossible claims and comments, don't we all as a group have a moral and ethical obligation to our fellow man to discount such statements. Some of the more "politically correct" amongst us have tried to politely state that these claims MAY be believed by "placebo effect, the true-believer effect or the red oil cap effect." This can be stated differently. Simply put, you cannot get more power out of a conversion than is put in. A N Y B O D Y that states otherwise is either uneducated and mistaken, or straight out LYING! People are wasting hard earned monies on this and other farces, partly because people continue to make claims indicating that it does work.

IT DON'T!

[4micaman]

Originally Posted by RatherBNtheWoods

"what i don't get is why do people get so upset when talking about this, if you don't believe then why post, nothing is gained nor lost with your opinion."

I disagree that nothing is gained. Whenever people in the general populous make incorrect/impossible claims and comments, don't we all as a group have a moral and ethical obligation to our fellow man to discount such statements. Some of the more "politically correct" amongst us have tried to politely state that these claims MAY be believed by "placebo effect, the true-believer effect or the red oil cap effect." This can be stated differently. Simply put, you cannot get more power out of a conversion than is put in. A N Y B O D Y that states otherwise is either uneducated and mistaken, or straight out LYING! People are wasting hard earned monies on this and other farces, partly because people continue to make claims indicating that it does work.

IT DON'T!

You make some good points but, I disagree almost whole-heartedly. Healthy debate is good and benefits everyone (directly or indirectly).

From my own experience, when I first heard that someone wanted to convert the sunshine into electricity... well, I laughed. Whose laughing at that now? People like roofeditor who are utilizing it and energy independent because of it... are laughing all the way to the bank. And good for them!

Stanley Meyer dedicated the last years of his life to this very quest... and had good success, until he was murdered. Stanley Meyer Info at PESWIKI (pure energy systems wiki) He even went so far to build a car that ran on pure water (no dino fuels whatsoever). Two other inventors in AU did the same thing and were allowed by the government to run their vehicles provided they kept it hush hush... One of them (after 10 years of not being so tight lipped) was suddenly found dead and the autopsy claimed him to have been drunk - a friend of his claims the man never drank a day in his life.

Quoted from Free Energy, Bob Teal | Magnipulsion, Dr Peter Lindemann
Bob Teal formed Magneteal Industries, Inc. and tried to raise capital to develop the invention. Ultimately, only a handful of friends and small investors ever bought in. Most of these funds were used to build the 6 working prototypes and file the two US Patents that issued in 1977 and 1978. The last prototype was able to produce 1 horsepower and could run a 20-ton conveyor belt on the same automotive battery for months.

I guess your claim that you can't get more energy out than you put in would be unfounded... without even considering the energy harnessed from solar, wind and wave technologies.

If you care to look at the page linked in the above quote, at the bottom of the page you'll see a link to an interview with Mr. Teal. It's a very old video so the quality isn't so good. Still, it's interesting.

Generally speaking, when people are presented with things that seem so highly unlikely, the first thing they do is dismiss it. The next thing they do is call these informers hacks, quacks or insane.

In my short 44 years of life on this fine planet, I've learned once you open your mind... your butt will follow. That doesn't mean one has to be naive - just be open and do your own research. If you don't at least investigate for yourself, how on earth can you state something which may or may not be true... is false? Doing such "is either uneducated and mistaken, or straight out LYING."

Just to clear up something red5jedi referred to... I am not using - nor building a hydrogen generator for use on any vehicle. I merely chimed in (un-rightfully so perhaps) as I see this as a viable option with a proper setup. There is a lot of research going on with this and a lot of kinks that need ironing out. That said, people should be aware of the con artists out there that would love nothing more than to separate you from your money... buyer beware! I personally flag a boat load of spam ads from Craigslist almost daily for the infamous "run your car on water" adverts.

[jski55]

Originally Posted by rotozuk

Hey folks..

So we want to break PURE water down to its base elements. How do we do that? Well, we can do like the rest of the world and use electricity. Oh wait, how much electricity do we need to throw at this to break the water down? A **** load. Do you have a **** load of electricity to throw at this? Nope.

Basically to make enough hydrogen for your truck to see any benefit, you would need to put ALL of the engines power into making electricity, and then you would still come up short.

Every time you convert energy you loose some of what you had. In this scenario you are converting energy many, many times. (combustion to mechanical to electrical to chemical to combustion.)

If it could be done every OEM would be doing it!

-Wayne

p.s. You want some free hydrogen? You already have a nice little hydrogen making device in your truck....it's called a battery. It can vent a SMALL amount of hydrogen as a result of (over)charging.

YOU are wrong!!!!
I ran my Bronco off of supplemental hydrogen. Oh it cant be done i was told.
I did install a separate 30 amp circuit...it worked. Yep it worked. Didnt blow anything up, didnt overtax my electrical system. I did see a performance increase and smell a difference in the exhaust. Its interesting what people will say when they have read something or heard something and HAVE NOT TRIED IT THEMSELVES. I haev since gone in a different direction but it works as per MY EXPERIENCE.

[jski55]

Originally Posted by Westro

It takes 50kWh of electricity to get 1 kilogram of Hydrogen.

The electrolysis method discussed in this thread consumes more energy that it creates.

Oh really now. What page was that on? I was originally going to be an engineer but decided against it. Id rather do my own research. supplemental is ther word being used here i beleive.

[jski55]

Originally Posted by MarvinVR

that thereis not more in this website about this. Its all over the news,its all over the web. People are selling books, CDs. plans, the completed units, etc. Of course it becasue of fuel prices. Everyone including a local news reporter claims it works and gives up to 30% or more mpg.

All that said---why is there only one thread on it here, and why no consensus? I mean, we have bunched of threads over what I consider useless wastes of time and money like the oil crossover tube. Isnt anyone here doing more research on this? I want to build or buy one but dont want to harm my engine.

Has been done Marvinvr. It can be done you can build one or buy one they do work.

[PTC_POWER]

I'm not going to comment anymore.

if anyone has anything to share to the hydrogen thread then i will respond.

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by jski55

YOU are wrong!!!!
I ran my Bronco off of supplemental hydrogen. Oh it cant be done i was told.
I did install a separate 30 amp circuit...it worked. Yep it worked. Didnt blow anything up, didnt overtax my electrical system. I did see a performance increase and smell a difference in the exhaust. Its interesting what people will say when they have read something or heard something and HAVE NOT TRIED IT THEMSELVES. I haev since gone in a different direction but it works as per MY EXPERIENCE.

So publish your results and invite your peers to review them. That's how we determine which claims are genuine and which ones are fantasies.

- - -

Here's my back-of-the envelope review:

12-Volt, 30-Ampere circuit: 360 Watts.
Heat of formation, liquid water: -285 kiloJoules per mole
360 Watts, -285 kJ/mol: 0.009 kg H2 per hour

4-liter engine, 2400 rev/min, 0.6-atmosphere manifold pressure: 200 kilograms of air per hour

Air:fuel ratio: 200 kg air per hour/0.009 kg H2 per hour = 22,000:1
Lower flammability limit of Hydrogen: 4% (25:1 Air:fuel ratio)

Does the word "preposterous" come to mind? It should.

[greasy_Exc]

Originally Posted by RatherBNtheWoods

"what i don't get is why do people get so upset when talking about this, if you don't believe then why post, nothing is gained nor lost with your opinion."

I disagree that nothing is gained. Whenever people in the general populous make incorrect/impossible claims and comments, don't we all as a group have a moral and ethical obligation to our fellow man to discount such statements. Some of the more "politically correct" amongst us have tried to politely state that these claims MAY be believed by "placebo effect, the true-believer effect or the red oil cap effect." This can be stated differently. Simply put, you cannot get more power out of a conversion than is put in. A N Y B O D Y that states otherwise is either uneducated and mistaken, or straight out LYING! People are wasting hard earned monies on this and other farces, partly because people continue to make claims indicating that it does work.

IT DON'T!

100 years ago, splitting an atom to produce energy was IMPOSSIBLE, ill agree that most of the people claiming to have this technology down are most likely full of crap or not doing their math right. However to say ANYTHING is impossible, is just dumb. The power of human imagination is limitless, and anyone who tries to stifle it with "impossiblities" is just getting in the way. instead of just saying its not possible, get off your ass and prove it. Get the education required and put it to paper.