Hydrogen Generators

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by PTC_POWER

this is a good one for the ones who don't believe
read carefully, because it does say put on a dyno
WAVE 3 TV Louisville, KY | Hydro 4000 makers say device can substantially improve fuel mileage

Yes, do read carefully. It actually says somebody else, a thousand miles away, put it on a dyno, (making the report second-hand hearsay) the initial test results are "suspicious", there are conflicting reports of whether it was tested on a Dodge Ram or a Durango, the vehicle tested has a checkered maintenance history and the test results are not yet available.

Device promises to save 60% at the pump West Palm Beach, Boca Raton, Treasure Coast local news, weather, live radar, investigative from Newschannel 5 | WPTV.com

"THE FOLLOW-UP TEST RESULTS ON THE HYDRO 4000 WILL AIR ON JULY 29TH AT 11 P.M."

[Rickie]

Originally Posted by AggiePSD

I'd venture to guess that water is completely made up of hydrogen and oxygen

Ever seen the rockets launched by NASA? Hydrogen & Oxygen as fuel, when combined, give off tremendous amount of energy. You need at least the same amount if not more energy to disassociate the hydrogen & oxygen atoms from water molecules. It costs more in hydrocarbon fuel to make hydrogen than the energy released. It has to be tied to renewable energy, like solar or wind to make any sense.

There are quite a few HFI companies out there. Once they start talking to you about carbon offsets to pay or at least provide part of the ROI for the installation and lease, you know it's all smoke & mirrors. Already been down that road.

See if you can find any info for ZEUS (Zero Emissions, Ultimate Solution), a diesel engine converted to burn hydrogen in a spark-ignited method. Nothing but water vapor and extremely low NOx for emissions. Plenty of power, but no way to get fuel cheaply or to store it safely.

[ralphinnj]

Can't believe people still getting sucked into this one. The problem is that none of the proponents can explain (properly) how it works. How does one explain that in theory it requires more to make the H2/O2 than that same mixture will return when it burns? How do they explain why fuel/air ratios are adjusted? That is, (easier to explain for a gasser), the O2 sensor has to be adjusted in cars that use these systems because the "excess O2 created by the HHO generator will make the car think it is running rich" so they cut fuel back. Two problems there: 1st, what do the HHO guys say if you reply to the above by saying that "the HHO generator creates EXACTLY the right amount of oxygen for the hydrogen it makes and therefore there should be no excess anything from the mixture?" 2nd, on a gasser, we know that leaner means better fuel economy, so doesn't anyone wonder whether it is just the recalibration (leaning) that uyields the gain?

On top of all the above, it also blows me away that the amount of H2/O2 made per mile is grossly below what would be required. That is, just assume you got the H2/O2 for free (so we'll break the laws of thermo, its ok); you still need to introduce enough to see an increase in economy. So, to double fuel efficiency as many are claiming, you would need to inject the thermal equivalent in H2/O2 that is being sent as fuel. That is, if your car gets 10mpg in a non-HHO vehicle, and in the claimed HHO vehicle, it gets 20mpg, the additional 10mpg comes from the H2/O2 mix. So 1 gallon takes you 10 miles, and with H2, you suddenly can go 20 miles. Since hydrogen is about 4 times as energetic as gasoline on a mass basis, you need about a 2 pounds of hydrogen gas (along with the accompanying oxygen) to be fed during that 20 miles. Do you have any idea how much water needs to be electrolyzed to get 2 pounds of H2? Try about 20 pounds. That is about 2-3 gallons of water for every 20 miles. Since a tank of gas makes a car go 200-400 miles, you would need to electrolyze 25-50 gallons of water for every tank ful. Yet these systems have these little quart-sized containers and they supposedly last several tanks worth. What a load of crap.

It never worked and it never will. If you are seeing improvements in fuel economy, it is due to something else, like aggressive, lean tuning, a light foot on the pedal, and other things you are doing to get the best economy you can. So i don't doubt people are seeing the improvements, but I totally reject that it is due to H2 produced via electrolysis. Someone show me how this works. I asked the same question on the other sites and still no answer. You are being deceived it you buy into this.

Ralph

[Mark Kovalsky]

Ralph,

The part you are missing to understand all of this is that all these people want it to be true so bad. That makes it true. That's all there is to it. They believe, so it's true.

All your scientific explanations, while being completely correct, can't change their beliefs. Science has no part in this, it is almost a religion. They believe, so it's true.

[drcampbell]

If you don't believe, then you must not fully understand the new technology and the new science behind it. Ask anybody.

See, it's not pure water, just hydrogen and oxygen, which goes into the tank. (pure water wouldn't conduct electricity anyway)
It's water plus an enabling additive - extract of Loaves & Fishes.

S. Harris published the theoretical analysis some years ago:


I'm not sure why you'd call it "almost" a religion. It includes incredible stories told by people who did not witness the event, unexplainable miracles, hostility to the scientific method, true believers, martyrs, conspiracy theories, persecution complexes and Diesel engines with oxygen sensors.

If nothing else, it's a clarion call for everybody to get involved and make sure their local school district is teaching only science in science classes. This is the inevitable outcome of permitting "alternative explanations" to be presented as fact.

Textbook disclaimer stickers

[Mark Kovalsky]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

I'm not sure why you'd call it "almost" a religion.

I was trying not to upset those that are sensitive about religions.

[Way Tall Whitey]

I spent the $97.00 and got the books. We put one cell in my '01 Tundra; my mileage went from ~15 mpg to just over 20 mpg. However, when I shut my truck off, the computer must have recalculated itself becuase once I topped off, my mileage dropped to 14 mpg.

We tried doing the free fix to fool the exhaust O2 sensor by wrapping it in foil, but no real change in mpg. The next step would be to buy the MAP controller for $45.00. We'll see about that... I've since added three more cells and have the gas going in at the air intake and at the manifold as recommended in the books. Mileage went to 16 mpg, not really the numbers I was hoping for, so I may have to tinker with it some more

I have the E books in pdf format and will gladly send them to anyone that wnats them so you can try it for yourself. Email me at waytallwhitey@yahoo.com

[NEG297F]

HEre are some other things to ponder. The atmosphere is roughly 21% oxygen. Anything over 24% or 27%( I forget which). Oxygen is NOT flammable, it will however severly increase the flammability of any combustable material. Browns Gas HHO is 30% oxygen so when you admit the HHO into he intake you will raise the percentage of oxyen going into the engine thereby increasing the flammability of the fuel, not to mention the hydrogen being introduced is flammable.
Now I don't know enough about the whole conversion process and electrical power consumption to chime in on that process. just my $.02

[Mark Kovalsky]

Originally Posted by NEG297F

Browns Gas HHO is 30% oxygen so when you admit the HHO into he intake you will raise the percentage of oxyen going into the engine thereby increasing the flammability of the fuel, not to mention the hydrogen being introduced is flammable.

But the added oxygen is exactly the right amount to completely burn the hydrogen that you're introducing. Exactly. Not just close. Exactly. So there is ZERO extra oxygen. ZERO.

[VLift]

I recommend you start here and explore:

http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/hydroxygas.htm

The nay-sayers will not change their tunes. This HHO will work however, the current technology avaiable that has a qualified level of research attached to it is small when you start wondering how to attach it to your $$$ engine. But, what you need is out there.

Then again, it's pretty simple stuff. In smaller systems (light truck) it is not pressurized, it is introduced with intake air. It's purpose is to improve combustion. it does a good job.

The above site does a pretty good job of steering you away from junk and telling you how to ID it.

[knapp]

For those who want figures go to WWW.science direct.com or Elsevier. An article in press by Ruggero Maria Santilli.
This will give you plenty of figures but it all boils down to what works in practice!
For me the jury is still out and I need a lot more practical results from the units I have installed.
Regards
Ron

[boracay]

i found detailed info on hydrogen cells,the different setups and one that a guy bob boyce was using to run race boats on ,and an older car with a carberater , he ran that with the wheels jacked up off the ground for 1000 miles at 60 miles per hour , they state for the electric controlled engines to [gas] see an improvement, the o2 sensors must be dealt with ,no mention on diesels and the effect of the map sensor .the bob boyce is a little complicated .it uses an dc to ac inverter back to pulse dc .but produces large amounts of gas . its located at pure energy sytems under bob boyce plans available for all

[tperk100]

If interested in a discussion group ONLY for 6.0 TD Boosters, here is a link.

TDBooster : Ford 6.0 Liter Turbo Diesel HHO Booster

[drcampbell]

Originally Posted by NEG297F

HEre are some other things to ponder. The atmosphere is roughly 21% oxygen. Anything over 24% or 27%( I forget which). Oxygen is NOT flammable, it will however severly increase the flammability of any combustable material. Browns Gas HHO is 30% oxygen so when you admit the HHO into he intake you will raise the percentage of oxyen going into the engine thereby increasing the flammability of the fuel, not to mention the hydrogen being introduced is flammable.
Now I don't know enough about the whole conversion process and electrical power consumption to chime in on that process. just my $.02

How does that work? The autoignition temperature of hydrogen (585 degrees Celsius) is a whole lot higher than that of gasoline (280 degrees C) or Diesel fuel. (212 degrees C for #1; 256 degrees C for #2)

First, for gas engines:
Air is about 78% N2 and 21% O2.
A stoichiometric mixture is about 73% N2, 19.6% O2 and 6.8% gasoline without a Brown's Gas generator.
What are the optimum proportions of N2, O2, H2 and gasoline with a Brown's Gas generator?

Next, for Diesel engines:
What's the optimum air:fuel ratio without a Brown's Gas generator?
What are the optimum proportions of N2, O2, H2 and #2 with a Brown's Gas generator?

[NEG297F]

Originally Posted by drcampbell

How does that work? The autoignition temperature of hydrogen (585 degrees Celsius) is a whole lot higher than that of gasoline (280 degrees C) or Diesel fuel. (212 degrees C for #1; 256 degrees C for #2)

First, for gas engines:
Air is about 78% N2 and 21% O2.
A stoichiometric mixture is about 73% N2, 19.6% O2 and 6.8% gasoline without a Brown's Gas generator.
What are the optimum proportions of N2, O2, H2 and gasoline with a Brown's Gas generator?

Next, for Diesel engines:
What's the optimum air:fuel ratio without a Brown's Gas generator?
What are the optimum proportions of N2, O2, H2 and #2 with a Brown's Gas generator?

The autoignition point is signifigantly higher than that of Gasoline or diesel, but last time I looked at a gasoline motor that was a little device in the cylinder that admits an external ignition source, a.k.a. the sparkplug, and diesel engines have the whole heat of compression thing working.
Now since given the fact that N2 is inert, and there by non flammable, and you are replace a small percentage of that N2 with a flammable mixture of HHO that would make the mixture of gasses in the cylinder more flammable. More flammable in the cylinder would be more power for a given amount of fuel or the same amount of power with less fuel.

And Mark K., if it takes exactly that 33% oxygen that is produced to completely burn the hydrogen burned then maybe you can explain how the Hindenburgs supply of hydrogen seemed to completely burn in a 21% oxygen atmosphere.