Jet Fuel A in 7.3's - Page 2 - Diesel Forum

BIG JOE · 04-28-2006, 11:17 AM

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OK, great info! Lets see if he can really get me a 55 gallon drum as he says first. Anyone know any brand names or mixing ratios for the "lubricant".

Also (if anyone works in this field) is it true that aircraft mechanics cannot refuel the planes with the fuel they sump out of them when they work on them? Supposedly this is where the free fuel comes from and there's a list at his work to get the sumped fuel. Almost sounds too good to be true, but maybe. For people like us that'd be a helluva fringe benefit!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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I work with Aviation Fuels, as well as Gasoline(s) and Diesel fuels. Jet "A" is basicaly Pure, Super Filtered Kerosene. It has basicaly NO lubrication qualities to it. It has a Low flash point (Burns Hot). It has, depending on the blend, Anti-iceing inhibitors in it that >CAN BE< very corrosive, to metals and O ring/seal compounds. Some Jet-A, from some parts of the World, are not permited to be used in U.S. aircraft.

When we need to De-fuel an aircraft, or a Gas/Diesel powered vehicle... We run a Spectrum Lab test to find ALL the properties of the product. IF, any of the products Fail it's specific testing, it is not put back in the delivery stream for re-issue. It is wasted off as "Slop" fuel, to be sold to a waste oil collector. (who mixes it into Un-graded, Boiler fuel)

Just my opinion but.... There Ain't No Way... I'd run "SLOP" fuel, Or, a "Jet" fuel in my Diesel pick-up. There are just, to many variables to take the chance.

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif[/img]

67Shorty · 04-28-2006, 12:54 PM

The red dye is in high sulfur diesel (higher than what you normally get in the pump). I know of a few places that sell it but it is for "Off-road" use only! Air Force uses JP-8 now, Navy JP-5. Basically the same stuff, we burn both in our jets (Air Force KC-135s refueling Navy jets, and those same KC-135s some times tank up at Navy bases). We run our diesel generators on JP-8, and our trucks on B20, so take that for what it's worth. Also, JP-8 is clear in color, the only way to tell for water is smell and weight (out on the jet, at least).

Cool_Canuck · 04-28-2006, 11:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, great info! Lets see if he can really get me a 55 gallon drum as he says first. Anyone know any brand names or mixing ratios for the "lubricant".

Also (if anyone works in this field) is it true that aircraft mechanics cannot refuel the planes with the fuel they sump out of them when they work on them? Supposedly this is where the free fuel comes from and there's a list at his work to get the sumped fuel. Almost sounds too good to be true, but maybe. For people like us that'd be a helluva fringe benefit!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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This subject comes up frequently. Jet A is very similar to straight kerosene and low in lubricating qualities. It is lower in BTUs than #2 diesel.

Yes it is true that fuel removed from an aircraft is not to be used to refuel aircraft. There are occassions that the fuel has to be drained from the aircraft and I would guess this is fuel you have and is not from sump checks.

I can obtain Jet A on occassion and use it in an oil burning furnance. My truck really does not like it. You can use it in your truck, but I would suggest you mix it with #2. Something like 75% #2 to 25% Jet A.

Expect a noisy engine and poor milage.

clamgulch · 04-29-2006, 12:48 AM

A jet engine running a compressor ratio of 24 bar is far less picky about fuel than a powerstroke diesel with it's persnickety HEUI injectors. IF the stuff you get is clean and dry AND you can put a lubricant in it, it would beat walking, but dirty or water logged fuel is junk, and the price on replacement injectors far exceeds what you will save on a couple barrels of "free" jet A.

F250Jockey · 04-29-2007, 01:30 AM

I've been an aircraft mechanic for 19 years and deal with this subject on a weekly basis.

First of all, Jet A (not sure about JP-5), is NOT dyed.

When you sump out of an aircraft, you CAN put that SAME FUEL back into the SAME AIRCRAFT, but NOT into ANOTHER aircraft.

You also CANNOT mix sumped fuel with other fuel that will be used to fuel other aircraft, ie, pump it into a fuel truck that fuel's other jets.

This subject has been debated for years in aviation circles.

I've heard of people using straight Jet A (no additives at all) for over 15 years in the same vehicle, without any problems. Mind you, these vehicles didn't have the HEUI Injectors that our Powerstrokes have.

I've also heard of several people using it in the newer model diesel trucks, and mixing it with either motor oil, transmission fluid, or an additive like Stanadyne, Diesel Kleen, etc, without problems.

Personally, I wouldn't run it in a Powerstroke unless I mixed it with ON-Road Fuel (about 50/50), and ran some type of lubricity additive.

Just my $0.02!

Dave Whitmer · 04-29-2007, 07:13 PM

I ran my truck on straight kerosene all summer in 2005 (hence no MPG testing that year). I threw a little bit of old straight-30 lube oil in the tank from time to time. No problems.

smorris · 04-29-2007, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The red dye is in high sulfur diesel (higher than what you normally get in the pump). I know of a few places that sell it but it is for "Off-road" use only! Air Force uses JP-8 now, Navy JP-5. Basically the same stuff, we burn both in our jets (Air Force KC-135s refueling Navy jets, and those same KC-135s some times tank up at Navy bases). We run our diesel generators on JP-8, and our trucks on B20, so take that for what it's worth. Also, JP-8 is clear in color, the only way to tell for water is smell and weight (out on the jet, at least).

[/ QUOTE ]It may have used to been high sulfur....I'm willing to bet its all the same now. A local guy works for colonial pipeline where thay pump the fuels in to the tank farm. Also there is a ex-employee of that same place working with me now. Both have said its all the same. They just add dye to it to show its off-road---(no highway tax added) Thats the only difference. I got a couple of tanks of the red stuff a couple years ago when "the shortage occured due to the hurricane". As long as you kept the reciept from the truck stop showing the taxes were paid , you were legal. Matter of fact the same lines are used for pumping all grades of gasoline --(seperate line for the diesels). They run the reg. and the plus back to back down the same lines without anything to seperate the batches. The Super, supposedly gets run with a "pig" to seperate it from the other.
Back on topic..../
I wouldnt run it unless its been tested to be sure its clean and dry.
My truck cost a lot.....if its gonna break , its gonna be cause I flogged it to death!

Greensnake · 05-07-2007, 03:32 PM

I have run more than 1000 gallons of Jet A, JP-5, or whatever name you call it. It is sumped fuel from the helos I fly. Never been a problem. Just run an additive.

jlrsn · 05-07-2007, 07:21 PM

67Shorty replied:
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the only way to tell for water is smell and weight (out on the jet, at least).

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Not true as I replied above.
To confirm that the fuel you take is water free when sumping a truck prior to fueling an aircraft put a little red food dye in the fuel in a white plastic bucket and swirl it around once or twice and then let it settle. If you have water the food dye will mix only with the water and instantly color it red. It will look like little red beads to long red slugs on the bottom dependent on how much water there is. Don't get carried away with the food dye as less than a half of a teaspoon full will be enough for a 20 gallon tank.

arisley · 05-07-2007, 11:59 PM

I remember seeing that trick, forgot all about it, it should work for #2 diesel also, right. Oops red dye not good in diesel. How about blue.

jlrsn · 05-08-2007, 02:47 PM

No reason that Blue Food Dye wouldn't work.

Airplaneguy57 · 05-08-2007, 03:28 PM

Now that I read the post the water is what the food die will stick to. If you put the fuel in a mason jar and swirl it around to make a vortex the free water will gather at the bottom. If the fuel is bright and clear then the amount of water suspended is so little it won't matter.

jlrsn · 05-08-2007, 04:08 PM

If you shake/swirl the Jet Fuel too much the water will be suspended in the fuel and it will take time for it to settle. That's why with Jet Fuel you don't sump your fuel tanks right after fueling as the water is still suspended in the fuel.

I always insist on sumping the truck myself before fueling. Also when refueling with Jet Fuel, unless single pointing, I also squirt the first quart from the nozzle to clean the garbage that has collected in the nozzle. I've had everything from pebbles, grass, to spiders come shooting out. I then, before putting the nozzle in the tank, wipe the nozzle as jet fuel picks up a lot of fine dust that washes off the nozzle which goes into the tank and mixes with any water which eventually creates a filter/engine fuel nozzle clogging slug. I've flamed out quite a few times in helicopters because of that with resultant autorotations.

With AvGas the water will settle right away and you sump the aircraft right after fueling.

The problem I've often found is that people use a little sump jar taking only a few ounces of fuel and on a lot of aircraft the water in the tanks will not enter the sample. With Jet Fuel, dependent on the aircraft, I always use a minimum of a quart of fuel per tank and on some aircraft I'll drain a gallon plus.

I've been refueling aircraft of all types and sizes all over the world for the last 50 years now and I've seen quite a few things happen.

Airplaneguy57 · 05-08-2007, 04:45 PM

That is why you take low point samples on your aircraft. The fuel truck is not the last sample taken. After an aircraft sets for the night you always sump it out. If you don't people die. I used to drive/operate aircraft refulers while in the Navy. Now I'm exclusively in the aircraft maintenance/logistic business. It pays the bills.

jlrsn · 05-08-2007, 06:31 PM

Taking fuel samples from low points in the fuel system is a given, especially with large aircraft, but as an IA you should be aware of AD Notes stating that some GA Aircraft can have gallons of water in their fuel tanks even after sumping until a specific procedure is used or a modification of the fuel system is complied with to be able to remove the water. Even a bladder fuel tank with wrinkles on the bottom from poor installation can retain water after sumping. Enough said, we're getting off topic.
Jim